Author Topic: Brigadine Armor  (Read 848 times)

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Offline EltonJ

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Brigadine Armor
« on: April 04, 2022, 11:34:04 AM »
What would be Brigadine's armor type?

images: One here, here, and here.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Brigadine Armor
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2022, 12:53:38 PM »
RMU states Brigandine as AT9 (on a 1-10 scale), above mail (AT8) and below plate (AT 10).

However, the description does not necessarily match the appearance of the Brigandine armour - the Brigandine is supposed to have *small* metal plates riveted to an outer layer (leather or cloth). The RMU description indicates "larger than hand-size" plates, and makes no mention of flexible layer or riveting - plus, it gives the roman Lorica Segmentata as an example, which significantly differs from the Brigandine (larger overlapping plates, no outer layer or backing). The actual Brigandine matches the Metal Scale (AT 7) description better, though not perfectly either.

Additionally, apparently, it was typically worn over another layer of protection, be it a gambison or mail shirt. Additional arm and leg plates completed the protection. I would keep the full set as AT 9 (RMU) and would push it to AT 15 (RM2/RMSS/FRP) - not quite as good as plate, but the next best thing. You would have to customise the manoeuver and defense modifiers, though.

Worn without the gambison or chain shirt, I would put it as AT 8 (RMU) and 14 (RM2/RMSS/FRP).

Offline jdale

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Re: Brigadine Armor
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2022, 01:15:31 PM »
There's considerable variation in the outer material and in the plate size. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigandine  For a light brigandine or maybe jack of plate, AT 7 could be appropriate. RMU uses the term for something at the heavier end of the spectrum (so AT 9).

I suspect, though, that the question is in regards to RM2/RMC or RMSS/RMFRP. In which case it might make sense to treat it as mail/scale armor (so AT 13-16 depending on coverage).
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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Brigadine Armor
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2022, 04:04:15 PM »

I suspect, though, that the question is in regards to RM2/RMC or RMSS/RMFRP. In which case it might make sense to treat it as mail/scale armor (so AT 13-16 depending on coverage).

It would be the 9-12 AT range.  The 13-16 AT is the chain mail grouping for RM2.  I always take AT16 and pray I don't go against enemies with arrows :)
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Offline jdale

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Re: Brigadine Armor
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2022, 04:11:15 PM »
It's not obvious from the pictures but there are metal plates on the inside, that's what makes it brigandine. So it should at least be on par with scale armor which is also small metal plates, and AT 13-16.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Brigadine Armor
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2022, 04:11:53 PM »
What would be Brigadine's armor type?

images: One here, here, and here.
  All three are brigandine armors. That being said, the fabric or leather covering doesn't show the plates.
The interior would look like this:
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Brigadine Armor
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2022, 04:13:32 PM »
I always imagined it as having non-overlapping metal plates on padded armor.
(Edit: What jdale said above, there are metal plates in there - actually kind of a misleading look for foes who might not know what it is).

This is for re-enactment, so the plates are leather too, but imagine if the squares on this were metal.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Brigadine Armor
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2022, 04:28:19 PM »
  I wore a brig for years while SCA fighting. It was made of heavy denim and the plates were thick PVC plastic that fit into pockets, similar to current ballistic vest designs (the concept was used in the M-55 bullet resistant vest used in the Korean War) and was light and comfortable for all-day use.

  RM does not go into the many variations of armors through the ages. Scale mail isn't at all like chain, and lamellar isn't like plate. While a brigandine is fine for torso armor, I wore plate legs, as they moved and protected better than trews of chain.   
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Offline jdale

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Re: Brigadine Armor
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2022, 05:01:52 PM »
Vladimir's picture shows plates that are larger than scale, with good overlap, and the chest section in particular is almost a breastplate. That's the sort of thing that would be AT 9 in RMU. Cory's picture shows smaller non-overlapping plates but that's re-enactment and I don't know if they would have done that historically.
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Offline Vladimir

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Re: Brigadine Armor
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2022, 08:02:10 PM »
Vladimir's picture shows plates that are larger than scale, with good overlap, and the chest section in particular is almost a breastplate. That's the sort of thing that would be AT 9 in RMU. Cory's picture shows smaller non-overlapping plates but that's re-enactment and I don't know if they would have done that historically.
  Armor quality varied in history. There was "munitions armor" which as mass-produced for governments and literally passed down through generations, with patches and repairs over the years. Rank and file soldiers used these sets of armor and would take anything better gleaned off the battlefield.
  While RM doesn't specify the various armor types, one could more or less shoehorn the variations into the game. Custom-fitted plate armor would share the top of the line with Japanese and Chinese lamellar armors and some of the Persian chain/plate char a'ineh. On the bottom you have armlets, gauntlets and the gambison padded coat. Of leather armors you could have soft hides to wax-treated buffalo skins.
Ring mail is a primitive version of chain. The rings are much larger and thicker gage but almost useless versus thrusts. Cheap chain mails would be butted links while the more expensive types would be riveted and heat tempered.
  Scale mail isn't chain mail. The scales overlap and provide better protection, while still retaining some flexibility. It is much more expensive to manufacture and customize. Scale armor is similar to a brigandine in that the metal scales are mounted on a leather or fabric frame but with the armor exposed. The coat of plates is similar to scale armor but with larger sections of armor.     
  Lamellar is similar to a coat of plates and use a garment as a frame, in other variations the armor is held together with bands of cloth or leather. Samurai armor plates are sewn together with laces of colored silk.
 
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