Official ICE Forums
Iron Crown Enterprises => ICE News and Discussion => Topic started by: John @ ICE on August 10, 2012, 08:21:58 AM
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This forum is more of a diary or “blog†of the process of starting an RPG group with my kids. I suppose thee place to start is to give you all a little background info. I suppose in many ways I’m the typical parent: a loving wife and two good kids, a fairly time intensive job, but I’m the boss, so I have a little more control. I’m American, but I have lived in London for 12 years. Enjoying the Olympics right now – massive buzz in the city and since I get to root for two teams (US and GB), I have a lot to cheer about!
Perhaps atypically, I happened to buy a game company, ICE, out of bankruptcy in 2001. At the time, I thought I could get the investment back and with a little luck, convert some IP into the electronic medium and maybe make some good money, however I considered this a long shot. But an equal consideration was I thought it would allow me to indulge in a big way into my main hobby and a real creative passion – RPGs – when I retired, and if I could find a licensee to husband the company and hopefully improve it, I could slowly work my way into it. Well, it didn’t exactly go as planned, but I hope its back on track for the slow but steady growth where the IP and really the ICE community as whole will begin to grow stronger again.
But that’s more the business end of it, and really only interesting from a “meta-game†level. I want to be part of the creative process, too, and of course, I want to play!
Now, at 45 years of age, I have not been able to do that much in the last couple years. I was last running a HARP campaign. And so I have been mulling how best, how efficiently can I get back to playing WITHOUT taking away from family time, which would immediately trigger repercussions with the lovely wife...
hmmm....play....with....my....KIDS!
Yeah, that’s the ticket!
Oh – and my wife has been invited to play too (she claims she played D&D in the past, but I’m skeptical ???). I’m just worried she will do it out of the need to feel that she must participate, but we all know what it’s like to have a player around a table who is not stoked to be there!
Gigi and Charley, ages 11 and 8, are my two daughters. They are avid readers, have active imaginations, love Harry Potter and I have managed to get them into fantasy reading and movies, as well as doing some “LARPing†when we take woodland walks in the English countryside (I almost always get to play the ogre or the orc...)
S o, despite a busy schedule, about a year ago, I started to think that they would be the right ages to start playing this summer – Charley is a little young, but I think she can manage it.
The first step was starting to work out with Thom, also a member of the Aurigas team and my brother-in-law for those who don’t know, on how this might work in the context of ICE products. So we have been kicking back and forth a way to distil the best of HARP / RM into a VERY BASIC set of rules designed to “just start role-playingâ€. We are not done yet but getting there. I don’t know if I will focus too much on that process, but rather the “getting the campaign ready†and “getting the adventure modules ready stuff†more. I also intend this to be a record of how the hobby fits into daily life and family life and track how it works, and hopefully to elicit suggestions from others. Maybe then it can become a useful guide to others.
I plan to try to post about once every one to two weeks. And I will be tracking the board and looking to engage...of course, when I can find the time to do so!
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Back in the day, I personally considered AD&D to be so streamlined and basic that yes, you could teach a 10 year old how to be a good gamer. And yes, I'd love to see an ICE game that is so basic you can teach your kids (or in my case, my great nephews) the fun of RPGs.
That said, I think of granularity and the ability to make the system fit the GM's world concept to be the core of ICE games. This seems consistent to me through all incarnations of RM and HARP. So while I know for certain an RPG could be made simple and streamlined to the point where your 10 year old can be a 'full' player (I've played one that simple myself, after all), I think the real neat trick would be making it that simple and streamlined and still have the robust modularity that makes it recognizable as an ICE product.
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A friend of mine from college and a very gifted roleplayer, is constantly working on systems and mechanisms. I mention this because he has a similar issue although his boys are a little younger and last time I spoke to him about it he was constructing a system that he could use to indoctrin... I mean, introduce his kids into the hobby. I'll point him towards this thread :)
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You should talk with your german partners from 13mann.de. They created a d10 system called Aborea, which is so increadible easy and still has a feeling of RM/HARP (at least with some fantasy and good will). The only thing which I'm missing are the critical hits... but... I know... we want to play with Kids, so it's better to keep the fights a bit more abstract ;)
I will go on holiday tomorrow and we have the box with us. We will try to play it with my 8 year son in the evenings. I hope this works ;)
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Don't underestimate the kids. I have introduced RM to loads of kids over the years and I have found that they can pick it up pretty quickly, especially if they are given loads of guidance and support early in the process.
The big proviso is that they need to be strong readers and have pretty good mental arithmetic - but playing will improve those skills anyway.
The best place to start is to give them a setting and ask them what sort of character they would like to play. Let them go nuts with detail and flights of fancy, and then gradually pare down the ideas into something that fits the system and scenario. Generally, they start out wanting to be good at everything, but it doesn't take them long to come to terms with the reality of the game and how characters develop. Having at least one quirky or unique trait (within the party) makes them happy to have a niche.
Best of luck!
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Don't underestimate the kids. I have introduced RM to loads of kids over the years and I have found that they can pick it up pretty quickly, especially if they are given loads of guidance and support early in the process.
The big proviso is that they need to be strong readers and have pretty good mental arithmetic - but playing will improve those skills anyway.
The best place to start is to give them a setting and ask them what sort of character they would like to play. Let them go nuts with detail and flights of fancy, and then gradually pare down the ideas into something that fits the system and scenario. Generally, they start out wanting to be good at everything, but it doesn't take them long to come to terms with the reality of the game and how characters develop. Having at least one quirky or unique trait (within the party) makes them happy to have a niche.
Best of luck!
I concur, my daughter started playing Rolemaster with us at a young age. Like Langthorne said, the key was to let her go nuts with detail and flights of fancy (easily done with an Illusionist). Over time, she's fully embraced the rules.
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I agree with Langthorne and Peter Mork.
While they were still alive, my twin daughters were so fascinated with what mommy and daddy were doing with all the college students. At the age of nine, I finally told them. Initially, I gave them the original 1978 (79?) editions of D&D books I had and told them to look them over.
After a couple of weeks, they came back and said, "So you, mommy, and those other people are play-acting." I explained that in a sense, yes, it was like playing "army", "cowboys and indians", etc. They said they wanted to do it also to play. By the time my daughters were 10 years old, they were role playing with mommy and daddy and the others.
As both have said, don't sell kids short. With the right teachers, they can understand a system as complete and flexible as RM.
However, even I have to admit that the lure of electronic role playing is powerful. You can literally get on-line and instantly jump into a game and role play. There is always players available somewhere in this world. You don't have to worry about fitting your schedule with others in your local region. You just jump on-line anytime you wish to role play and you are role playing.
In fact, although I hate saying so, I think the table top role playing will eventually vanish. Role playing will all be done through the medium of cyberspace.
I read the "Proclaimations from the Crown" by Thom@ICE. I have to agree with him. You cannot look at anybody now days without seeing them so immersed into their "social networking" they literally have no clue as to where they are. I cannot begin to number the times I have seen persons walk into trees, walk into other persons, I even sat and watched one stupid girl paying so much attention to her cell phone, she literally walked into and fell into the Duck Pond at UNM. Of course, she was angry at me for laughing at her. But I could not help it. When I am walking from point A to point B (from class to bus stop, or vice versa) I read a book while walking. However, I keep a close watch on my surroundings to the point that I have never walked into any kind of undesired situation, such as the Duck Pond. This is a good example of my practicing the skill Spatial Location Awareness, and these stupid yunguns today do not.
The big problem of today is to get the yunguns to put away those electronic devices and somehow get them to understand that the FtF role playing is much more fun than what some idiot halfway across the globe thinks of their facebook page.
I hate to say so, but I am really old school. I much prefer FtF games over any other way of role playing. I do admit that I made a facebook page, but I have not logged into that page for over two or more years. I really think facebook sucks. And as far as all other social networking, poppycock. I won't use it. Of all of it, I much prefer the forum boards over anything else. Of course, I like the forum boards because I use to log into the old BBS and FidoNet boards beginning back in 1984. Forum boards of today, like this one, are exactly the same as the ones back then. Just that with the WWW, you can almost get instant results, providing everyone posting in that thread are lurking in the thread waiting for new posts.
I think I have ranted long enough. My main point is do not underestimate children. I started role playing way back in 1974 when I got the very first D&D Basic Boxed Set for my 13th birthday. That puts me having role played for 38 years! Even I still find it hard to believe it has been that long. Do like I did with my daughters when they showed interest. Let them look through the books at their pace. Answer their questions, show them how it is done when they are ready. But don't try to cram it on them. As soon as they seem to be stupified, take a break and let them mull it over on their own. And you may just be surprised.
rmfr
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Personally I think the "for kids suiting" bit is more connected to the setting than the game system. A forgiving a setting where you can fool around and receive superior healing if you screw up solves most issues. In some sense you need to make the game closer to cartoon style than "you did not anticipate the ambush...bleed to death in 12 rounds".
I used to run RM for newbies and had participants around the age of 11 and 12 even though the majority of the players was older. The older player did the full character development themselves while the younger used one of the computer programs.
All in all I think the key to success was when dealing with the younger players I make sure the adventures had a clear structure. The older players enjoyed being fooled by the NPC and finding games within games while the younger players preferred when the adventure developed along the party-line of the adventure. The gaming system, that you as the GM manage anyway, is very a seldom a problem in practice.
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I lent my three RMC books to a D&D mate a fortnight ago, and today was the first time in many years that I have played RM. Also my wife and son Blake(10) played as well...my daughter is still not fussed on it yet, she's almost 9. I was sitting beside my son with the Arms Law book doing the hits and critical's while showing him how its done and also explaining the workings on his character sheet (just heard him now in the background saying to my wife how awesome RM is, LOL). We let him give suggestions on plans of attack and how to resolve certain issues and suggestions on what questions to ask NPC's. Of course most of the time we needed to guide him but being his real first game he did rather well I thought. Kids are not as dopey as some might think, it's guidance they need and eventually they'll need less and less and sooner they'll start to think rationally.
I suggested to our GM to pre make our characters. We chose what we wanted to play (we let our son choose first)and I emailed him the basic details. So when he arrived we where able to play straight away. I think letting the child have a character at the beginning already made with the basics is a good starting point...there's no bog down on character generation cutting into game time. I found as we where in game in a little time he started to know what his character was best at and not so good at.
Now, at 45 years of age, I have not been able to do that much in the last couple years. I was last running a HARP campaign. And so I have been mulling how best, how efficiently can I get back to playing WITHOUT taking away from family time, which would immediately trigger repercussions with the lovely wife...
hmmm....play....with....my....KIDS!
Yeah, that’s the ticket!
Yep, that just about sums it up for me too. Although after my wife watched the ''Once Upon a Time'' TV series, she actually wanted to role-play again!
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I read the "Proclaimations from the Crown" by Thom@ICE. I have to agree with him.
Just to clarify... All Proclamations from the Crown come from John. I simply executed the posting/sending/website update.
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Man, I really need to get started playing with my kids (2 girls, ages 9 and 7). I keep meaning to, and they have been exposed as my group and I play weekly at my house. My oldest Kaley is interested and an avid reader (read all Harry Potter, Sisters Grimm, Narnia, trying to get her to read the Hobbit before the movie). My youngest Maizy not so much (she's into princesses, barbies and clothes).
However the funny thing is that it's Maizy who is into creative play. She'll play on her own or with others and come up with the most imaginative things. So Roleplaying is definitely in her wheelhouse as it were, it's really more about subject matter.
So the challenge for me, and all the rest of you out there with kids who might not be interested in Swords, Sorcerery, and Monsters, is to run a game about something they are interested in. I'm not about to run a game about Barbies, but Princesses, Faeries? Sure! There's lots of possibilities out there, I just need to step outside Shadow World and Mystara and be more creative.
Great post John. Maybe what we need for RM is some kid friendly adventures, with different and varies subject matter. Troll Lord Games as a single small book stripped down version of Castles & Crusades where you play squirrels, mice, rabbits, complete with an adventure in Wheat Hollow. It's quite good.
Having actually products targeting that age group, with RM or HARP, is like an investment on the future. Maybe an adventure focused around a group of young kids: kids love stories about other kids, see Harry Potter, Spy Kids, Young Sherlock Holmes (ok that one's a little dated but still good). Playing adult heroes is well and good, but I think what will better capture their attention are fantastic heroes that are kids.
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You should talk with your german partners from 13mann.de. They created a d10 system called Aborea, which is so increadible easy and still has a feeling of RM/HARP (at least with some fantasy and good will). The only thing which I'm missing are the critical hits... but... I know... we want to play with Kids, so it's better to keep the fights a bit more abstract ;)
I will go on holiday tomorrow and we have the box with us. We will try to play it with my 8 year son in the evenings. I hope this works ;)
It MUST have crits! There is nothing more exciting than open ended rolls, come on! You cant lose that. All you need to do is change the descriptions (and simplify the outcomes). but having that heroic, one-swing win is key.
Let us know what you have discovered in your game. Which box BTW - Arborea?
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Don't underestimate the kids. I have introduced RM to loads of kids over the years and I have found that they can pick it up pretty quickly, especially if they are given loads of guidance and support early in the process.
The big proviso is that they need to be strong readers and have pretty good mental arithmetic - but playing will improve those skills anyway.
The best place to start is to give them a setting and ask them what sort of character they would like to play. Let them go nuts with detail and flights of fancy, and then gradually pare down the ideas into something that fits the system and scenario. Generally, they start out wanting to be good at everything, but it doesn't take them long to come to terms with the reality of the game and how characters develop. Having at least one quirky or unique trait (within the party) makes them happy to have a niche.
Best of luck!
Good stuff. I have a specific setting in mind and a first adventure (which starts in their home town) but I am going to give them lots of flexibility of who they can choose from in terms of background. But, because its in a town of humans, they will all start as humans, and, as was recommended by someone (and then I asked the kids) they dont want to play adults but do want to play teenagers (maybe a little to much of watching the Disney channel...)
I agree with your earlier point. somehow when I was in summer of 6th to 7th grade, I managed to sit myself down and over the course of a day and a half on a weekend read the AD&D players hand book. And I mostly got it - without the help of a parent. But then I had the time to do it - it was summer break and I was not allowed to stay in a watch TV and there were no video games (not like an xbox anyway). so the choices were - sports, go the beach, AD&D or get in trouble.
So, adding in Grumpy's sentiments - yes streamlined, but not dumbed down. Modularity, yes, but when its all a bit to simple, wont they just move on the HARP and RM and find the detail and modularity there? I suppose what I want really is game that:
1) is for parents who are not expert RPGrs to play with their kids (so its easy for them to learn understand)
2) for younger kids (lets say under 11 yrs of age, so maybe 4th, 5th or 6th grade) to figure out how to play with their friends without a parent (maybe ambitious at 4th grade for the avg. kid, but not for those smart ones you know).
3) or for a parent who is a really good RPGr and can pretty much adjudicate anything that may come up (I assume here the parent is the GM) that the rules dont cover with "common sense" and RPG experience. So, that's me. I dont need rules for falling damage or encumbrance. I know the mage cant carry a full large chest of gold. I dont need rules for that, other than "the rule of thumb". so what I need is the basic framework thats easy to work with but also for the kids to read, understand and start playing. And I suppose, because i'm cautious, I'm assuming that they need to be able to learn it quick or I will lose their attention and off they go. Now, I'm probably not giving kids enough credit, which you seem to be saying.
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Man, I really need to get started playing with my kids (2 girls, ages 9 and 7). I keep meaning to, and they have been exposed as my group and I play weekly at my house. My oldest Kaley is interested and an avid reader (read all Harry Potter, Sisters Grimm, Narnia, trying to get her to read the Hobbit before the movie). My youngest Maizy not so much (she's into princesses, barbies and clothes).
However the funny thing is that it's Maizy who is into creative play. She'll play on her own or with others and come up with the most imaginative things. So Roleplaying is definitely in her wheelhouse as it were, it's really more about subject matter.
So the challenge for me, and all the rest of you out there with kids who might not be interested in Swords, Sorcerery, and Monsters, is to run a game about something they are interested in. I'm not about to run a game about Barbies, but Princesses, Faeries? Sure! There's lots of possibilities out there, I just need to step outside Shadow World and Mystara and be more creative.
Great post John. Maybe what we need for RM is some kid friendly adventures, with different and varies subject matter. Troll Lord Games as a single small book stripped down version of Castles & Crusades where you play squirrels, mice, rabbits, complete with an adventure in Wheat Hollow. It's quite good.
Having actually products targeting that age group, with RM or HARP, is like an investment on the future. Maybe an adventure focused around a group of young kids: kids love stories about other kids, see Harry Potter, Spy Kids, Young Sherlock Holmes (ok that one's a little dated but still good). Playing adult heroes is well and good, but I think what will better capture their attention are fantastic heroes that are kids.
Wow Matt, the descriptions of your oldest and youngest are virtual carbon copies of my oldest and youngest! And you are absolutely right, I think the campaign has to appeal and the adventures (picking up on other comments here) have to be a little more "set" and linear. I'm hoping that I got that right. I will be explaining more of where I am at with the setting in soem posts in the near future.
And believe me, its tough to get started, so dont get down on your self. I'm trying hard, but I'm still only getting 3 to 4 hrs of work in a week on it. I'm waaaay behind. I wanted to be gaming by this summer break which was mid July and I still have weeks of work to do at the pace I am going. But dont give up! like every GM sitting down to write a new adventure, just sit down and start, every couple of days, and it will happen!
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General Reply:
Lots of you seem to be saying...you dont need any special rules!
Hmmmm...I am rethinking on that...
My initial response is that's probably right. But not for everyone and not for some of the groups I mentioned. So I am going to go ahead with the "feeder" rules. I think of them this way as they should, after a short period of time (6 to 12 months) feed the newbies into the next level of game system. I can see how its not for everyone, probably I dont even need it for my 11 yr old and of course I could just "manage" it for the 8 year old. But darnit, I think the whole point as I want the kids to READ the rules and try to understand them. I want them to take SOME responsibility for knowing the rules as we should expect every player should. In fact, I suppose I want them to make a COMMITMENT! No pain, no gain. BUT, I want it to be EASY to make that commitment - not to get frustrated and give up?
Thoughts?
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Man, I really need to get started playing with my kids (2 girls, ages 9 and 7). I keep meaning to, and they have been exposed as my group and I play weekly at my house. My oldest Kaley is interested and an avid reader (read all Harry Potter, Sisters Grimm, Narnia, trying to get her to read the Hobbit before the movie). My youngest Maizy not so much (she's into princesses, barbies and clothes).
....
So the challenge for me, and all the rest of you out there with kids who might not be interested in Swords, Sorcerery, and Monsters, is to run a game about something they are interested in. I'm not about to run a game about Barbies, but Princesses, Faeries? Sure! There's lots of possibilities out there, I just need to step outside Shadow World and Mystara and be more creative.
Why not use the Once Upon a Time series talked about above as an example? Or even start with fairly tales from the old books and let the kids RP what they would do on each page.
MDC
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markc
Why not use the Once Upon a Time series talked about above as an example? Or even start with fairly tales from the old books and let the kids RP what they would do on each page.
MDC
Using old fairy tales - that's an excellent idea! We've actually read a lot of old fairy tales and I think they would both enjoy that a lot!
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Feel free to shoot this idea down. I have my own little group of playtesters that I tend to refer to as "the piranha tank", so if an idea of mine has extra bits asking to be chewed up, or places where it's leaking vital fluids and chumming the waters, well, don't hold back. I'm used to it.
But, because its in a town of humans, they will all start as humans, and, as was recommended by someone (and then I asked the kids) they dont want to play adults but do want to play teenagers (maybe a little to much of watching the Disney channel...)
Given that HARP is in many ways a... well perhaps not really simpler, but more straightforward version of RM, perhaps an initial solution is finding ways to have adventures suitable for Level Zero HARP characters.
Surely any of us who have (or are even ever around someone who has) kids have seen enough kids' TV and kids' movies to have seen examples of how this is done. The parents never believe what the real problem is, so the kids have to go take care of things themselves.
Thoughts?
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I was actually thinking the same thing as Grumps. Long time ago (1st edition AD&D) I played a game where all the PCs started out as 0 level. We were scratch members of the town militia, and had to go and deal with some lizardmen because the Waterdeep militia were fighting elsewhere. The idea was that we did our actions based on the character classes we hoped to attain.
RM is even better suited to that (assuming that the RM2 mechanics of having a 'development/adolescence level' and starting at 10k xp at level 1 are still in place!). I know it was a ton of fun, and linked in with a plot along the lines of <insert name of generic Disney film here> where the kids end up saving the world while their smiling, tolerant and frankly blind parents look on indulgently, I can imagine a group of little gamers having a blast.
edit - and +1 idea point to the grumpy one ;)
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I read the "Proclaimations from the Crown" by Thom@ICE. I have to agree with him.
Just to clarify... All Proclamations from the Crown come from John. I simply executed the posting/sending/website update.
And I officially apologize for the confusion. Thank you for the correction. Sorry for any confusion.
rmfr
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General Reply:
Lots of you seem to be saying...you dont need any special rules!
Hmmmm...I am rethinking on that...
My initial response is that's probably right. But not for everyone and not for some of the groups I mentioned. So I am going to go ahead with the "feeder" rules. I think of them this way as they should, after a short period of time (6 to 12 months) feed the newbies into the next level of game system. I can see how its not for everyone, probably I dont even need it for my 11 yr old and of course I could just "manage" it for the 8 year old. But darnit, I think the whole point as I want the kids to READ the rules and try to understand them. I want them to take SOME responsibility for knowing the rules as we should expect every player should. In fact, I suppose I want them to make a COMMITMENT! No pain, no gain. BUT, I want it to be EASY to make that commitment - not to get frustrated and give up?
Thoughts?
I never trimmed down the core rules of Rolemaster. My daughters understood it was a system that is more "believably realistic" than D&D. They even said it was more like the movies where a simple 5 man team could literally blow through a fortress full of bad guys.
And in all honesty, it is. Even if you take Aragorn in the Lord of the Rings. He was at least 40th level, if not 50+, due to his at least 70 years of adventuring and warfare. What is a bunch of enemies that are, what?, 10th level at max? Not much. Most of those enemies were probably only 5th level at max. But I digress.
It was because my daughters did join us in role playing that most of the role playing was "insinuated." Nothing was ever described in gruesome detail. About the worse I would ever get was something like, "You see a blasphemous perversion of human death." That was enough for everyone, including my daughters, to know they saw something terrible. Additional rules involved no foul language was permitted, even if such were completely natural for the situation. Even today, I still find myself saying, "Aw fudge," or, "Durn it," when I actually mean something different. All know what I mean.
Thus, I would sum it up by saying it all depends upon the kids. They will determine what they can handle in the game. And as others have mentioned, we even literally had "cartoon" adventures that were nothing more than a session of constant ROTFLOREO (rolling on the floor laughing our rear ends off). And to be honest, I think us adults enjoyed such more than my daughters.
rmfr
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Additional rules involved no foul language was permitted, even if such were completely natural for the situation. Even today, I still find myself saying, "Aw fudge," or, "Durn it," when I actually mean something different. All know what I mean.
As a gift should you choose it, feel free to use a line I stole long ago from Robert Heinlein, for use when I was working in a customer's office and couldn't express myself quite as colorfully as I otherwise might:
"Shucks, and other comments."
You can imagine for yourself what those 'other comments' might consist of. ;)
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Another point(s):
What are you trying to do with RPing with your young'ens? (helping them act, problem solving, fun, another type of game for game night, teaching values, safe environment, its your bis [ie game store])
What mechanic(s) do you want to use? (Complex or easy)
How easy are things going to be in terms of skill resolution? Or is there any skill resolution at all?
MDC
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"Shucks, and other comments."
And I remember that. Another I have used is from Larry Niven's Ringworld stories: TANJ (There Ain't No Justice (or nearly)). I think I may have switched the "A" word with the term we use in the South. Or, it may have been "ain't". I haven't read the Ringworld novels since perhaps the mid-80s.
And another more recent addition is from the SciFi Channel's version of Battlestar Galactica: Frak!
Another point(s):
What are you trying to do with RPing with your young'ens? (helping them act, problem solving, fun, another type of game for game night, teaching values, safe environment, its your bis [ie game store])
What mechanic(s) do you want to use? (Complex or easy)
How easy are things going to be in terms of skill resolution? Or is there any skill resolution at all?
MDC
Completely true. I know one thing my daughters learned was to add numbers up in their head faster than a spreadsheet or calculator. They also increased their creativity and imagination which in turn increased their artistic talents. I imagine there was more that role playing using the ICE systems (RM & SM) helped them with, but I cannot remember it right at this moment.
But I will say one thing, role playing will always help more than it will ever hurt. Excepting those few who lose touch with reality.
rmfr
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You can also do things such as have them draw pictures, write stories among other things that they enjoy to solve game "problems".
MDC
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I remember once my sister GMed a game and she gave out tokens of the magic/special items we had. From memory there was a small wand, a griffons feather, and a small vial...I'm sure there was other things but they are the ones I remember.
If I was to make a kids version of RM, I'd have it as a boxed set filled with plenty of goodies such as dices, character/monster cards, maps etc, kids seem to love that...I know I did as a child(remember the toys you used to get in the cereal boxes). It all depends on the child's age too but I think that the physical award approach could get our young daughters an inspiration to join in ;) worth a try at least?
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For younger kids a board game may also help it along as it provides some structure to play among themselves.
MDC
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Gotta admit, Talisman is popular among most of the younger of my relatives. As is MtG. Given that, the 'quick and easy' solutions for attracting younger gamers might be providing scenery, props, and adventures suitable not only for younger players, but for younger characters.
You might be able to put out a package deal with 'juvenile' (as Heinlein used to call it) adventure modules, that includes a certain amount of "scenery" and props, sufficient for the module contained in the product. Adults may find lots of pieces to get lost annoying, but I suspect kids see it differently.
"Collect 'em all!"
Sheesh, I can't believe I'm allowing those words to come out of my mouth. I hate salesmen.
:o
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For younger kids a board game may also help it along as it provides some structure to play among themselves.
MDC
D&D tried something like this back in the day. Does anyone know how well it did/sold?
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I remember once my sister GMed a game and she gave out tokens of the magic/special items we had. From memory there was a small wand, a griffons feather, and a small vial...I'm sure there was other things but they are the ones I remember.
If I was to make a kids version of RM, I'd have it as a boxed set filled with plenty of goodies such as dices, character/monster cards, maps etc, kids seem to love that...I know I did as a child(remember the toys you used to get in the cereal boxes). It all depends on the child's age too but I think that the physical award approach could get our young daughters an inspiration to join in ;) worth a try at least?
yeah, if it ever became commerical, i think you put it in a box with a lot of goodies. you could then even have additional goodies on the net. I purchased the D&D starter box and it comes with dice and colorful card minis but the covers were flimsy and the art was rehashed from the main version a bit. and I hated the way it explained the system sucked totally.
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You know the zero level harp is a very good idea. two things for me it might not solve
1) the big rule book intimidation factor
2) the complexity of the game...still
On point two, i'm sold on the fact a 10 or 11 year old can read and understand HARP. I get that. I'm not sold on the fact that I thing attention spans are less than what they were and they may not get over 1. but maybe that was also true in 1979 and why still only 10% of my classmates were playing RPGs...
Interestingly, as thom and i kick around rules and give the "feeder" a try, you may not be able to boil it down and still make it work for it to be materially different than 0-level HARP.
we will see...
I think I might start a sub board at some stage just on the rules, keep that separate from the campaign/modules and overall experience since it seems to be two different parts of the brain! ;)
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I'm not sold on the fact that I thing attention spans are less than what they were and they may not get over 1.
I doubt attention spans are actually any shorter.... but I think "the information age" has veered very hard toward rewarding a short attention span and not rewarding longer ones, so I'm not surprised they seem shorter. That and of course the classic, "Back in my day we walked six miles through the snow... uphill... both directions!" The grass is always greener in old people's memories, yours and mine no doubt included.
You know the zero level harp is a very good idea. two things for me it might not solve
1) the big rule book intimidation factor
2) the complexity of the game...still
On point two, i'm sold on the fact a 10 or 11 year old can read and understand HARP.
Big rule book intimidation factor, I dunno what to tell you. However, not only do I agree with you on point 2, I think one of the benefits of 'zero level adventures' is that it takes some of the complexity out. After all, most of your choices are made by being _____ profession from _____ culture. Spread out the free ranks, with a max skill rank of 3 (well over 50 DPs worth of ranks/talents IIRC.) Okay, you have 50 DPs to spend, still subject to the rank limit, which has already been hit with free (cultural/professional) ranks in most important skills. But note that well over half of "character development" was not spending DPs, but just 2 choices, profession and culture.
Sounds to me like chargen will be
1) Pick race/profession/culture, put those ranks where you want them
2) Spend 50 DPs, which I suspect will mostly be talents, with a few frills around the edges to make up what professional/cultural ranks didn't quite cover to your satisfaction.
You're done. By the time you roll your first 1st level character at age 13, you've done the above a couple of times and learned a lot of the HARP system 'by osmosis'.
The biggest obstacle I see to the idea is expanding the low-level end of the bestiary to include more things that zero level characters can face and overcome.
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In RMSS I use a youth, adol and apprent as the various stages of PC gen. With me noting where the skill ranks go do to background, race and social status. This works well as it provides a basis for the later adol and apprent "levels".
MDC
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I doubt attention spans are actually any shorter.... but I think "the information age" has veered very hard toward rewarding a short attention span and not rewarding longer ones, so I'm not surprised they seem shorter.
I know that now, pushing 42 in less than a month, my attention span is pitiful. The last movie I've been to see at the cinema was Hancock, and that was only because the date wanted to see it - I just don't have the ability to sit still for that length of time.
But - fantasy roleplaying still holds my attention, and I started when I was like 9 or 10 - because in a game something is *always* happening. Maybe not directly involving your character, but it's still happening to your group. So you alternate between watching the drama/comedy and being a participant in same.
So, is the problem really short attention spans, or is it getting them to the point where they can empathise with other players enough to be interested in what happens to their characters? A friend of mine has a son who is about 15 now, and he's an OK player - a bit power-mad but that's an adolescent thing he will grow out of. This is a marked difference to when he was 12 and he only seemed able to frame anything in its impact upon his character - in the intervening three years he started to develop some of the empathy required. That kid is a bit of a brat though, and girls are better at the empathy thing, so I'm sure you will be fine :)
Also seen in this thread was a question about the board game. I have played that and it works nicely as an introduction to the simpler mechanics of the d20 system. The weird thing is, the friend mentioned just above, his wife loves GMing the board game, but point blank refuses to take the next step, saying roleplaying is for losers. Also lovesd fantasy series on TV and playing games like Baldur's Gate on the PS. So we keep on reminding her that actually, she's run the board game, she's already a roleplayer, so she may as well embrace her inner nerd :) No luck so far, but she could crack yet :)
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Hi
I run. A regular hobby club for pupils at my school, aged around 11-12. I have also run RPG sessions including children down to about 8 yrs old.
My tips are simple:
- Choose your poison (read: rules) to suit you. Don't worry too much about complexity, just be mindful of how the game flows in play.
- Don't give them a rulebook. Show them it, see them go "wow, that's a big book", and then intro the game.
- Start with a simple linear adventure using pregen heroes, just for speed. Give them choice and allow customisation in details, but stay off rules. I use a short, and I mean short, dungeon.
- Assuming they enjoy the dungeon, they will want to play more and have their own hero. I allow them to keep the pregen or make their own.
- Offer reduced choices to suit your setting. I limit it to core book professions and races.
- Allow them to go nuts with concepts and them narrow it down to something playable.
- Intro the rules slowly, again dropping non-essential options. One tip, though, is to make the books sort of sacred. "You can read it when you are ready, young Padawan."
- Encourage less able, or younger kids, to lean on the smarter ones if they need help with maths or remembering rules. Children will absorb the rules you teach them as you play, as long as you take time to answer questions and are prepared to repeat instructions.
- When learning rules, talk them through the core rules as you need them. Repeat the first couple of times, taking it slow, showing them where info is on the sheet. After a third run through start asking them to tell you what they need to do, watch them figure it out, and soon they will learn the rules.
- Listen to them if they ask about what's possible. What sells my guys on FtF RPGs is two things: they can do anything we agree on; they decide what the setting will be like.
Oh, and with planning, I strongly recommend reading "Never Unprepared" by Engine Games.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
UbiRat
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Thanks ubiquitousrat! some very helpful points. the penultimate is excellent advice and will need to put that into practice.
this process works for the parents with kids (or "expert" with newbies) approach. I think you are right about showing the book and I might modify by saying "you can read it if you like, but you dont have too"
I still need to think about kids playing with kids and teaching themselves in terms of rules.
my first adventure is a little less structured, so maybe i am taking a risk there. I'm going to keep your points in mind to make sure they cant get that lost or frustrated.
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I still need to think about kids playing with kids and teaching themselves in terms of rules.
I got the blue-cover pre-"Basic Set" D&D when I was... less than 10 years old I think? And played with my friends (no adults). Looking back, we got many, many things wrong. And were horrible munchkins. Still had a good time though.
I don't think 10-year-old me could have handled RM on my own. That was high school. Or maybe middle school, it was a long time ago.
One issue we had as kids was the GM. I think a better design for kids would be a game they can play through without a GM (or optional GM). You could probably set up a module where each encounter explains the rules you need to know for that encounter. It would end up being half adventure, half tutorial. Could be a great intro product. Add some pregenerated characters, provide choices but don't have it too reliant on surprises and it can be reused - kids are more tolerant of retelling the same story than adults are, I think.
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I still need to think about kids playing with kids and teaching themselves in terms of rules.
I got the blue-cover pre-"Basic Set" D&D when I was... less than 10 years old I think? And played with my friends (no adults). Looking back, we got many, many things wrong. And were horrible munchkins. Still had a good time though.
I don't think 10-year-old me could have handled RM on my own. That was high school. Or maybe middle school, it was a long time ago.
One issue we had as kids was the GM. I think a better design for kids would be a game they can play through without a GM (or optional GM). You could probably set up a module where each encounter explains the rules you need to know for that encounter. It would end up being half adventure, half tutorial. Could be a great intro product. Add some pregenerated characters, provide choices but don't have it too reliant on surprises and it can be reused - kids are more tolerant of retelling the same story than adults are, I think.
A number of games did something like this (GW's version of Judge Dredd, TSR's Gangbusters, one module of Boot Hill, just to name the ones I remember off the top of my head). It was something of an outgrowth of the "Choose Your Own Adventure" books (which I think TSR had some interest in back in the 1980s), and did work fairly well. Judge Dredd's in particular was, I though, pretty well done. It introduced some RP concepts as well as game rules.
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I still need to think about kids playing with kids and teaching themselves in terms of rules.
I got the blue-cover pre-"Basic Set" D&D when I was... less than 10 years old I think? And played with my friends (no adults). Looking back, we got many, many things wrong. And were horrible munchkins. Still had a good time though.
These same kids are keeping track of Magic cards. These same kids figured out Transformers without help. Paint with a broader brush than you would for an adult, but don't worry about them being turned off by complexity. If it's fun, the complexity will add to it.
"How did you....? Oh that's cool...."
The ones who are best at finding those cool little details will become GMs.
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My son plays Magic with our group...even my daughter has a go of it...considering she used to say that she never would. I'm hoping in time she'll change her mind as with RM or any rpg.
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I like the idea of age appropriate settings. An obvious and easy one is the "school" -- "school of magic", "hero's school" or just regular school but with best friends who use magic and aren't human, an orc for the P.E. teacher, a dwarf running the science class and so on.
Kid detective is also a well developed theme where one should be able to steal lots of idea from various books, and the child can relate to it as well.
Summer camp? Mom and dad think its normal when they sign you up, but after your character arrives things begin to get odd....
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Lots of scenarios can be 'ported from the classic TV situations for city kids. If the characters are country kids things get a little more limited, as animals and plants have their own cycles and don't wait on us.
As obvious examples, during lambing or harvest kids won't be able to spare the time or attention to even notice the seeds of an adventure, much less get involved in it. Not unless it's something that shakes the entire community to its foundations.
I'd think in many ways the hard part in either case would be keeping the adults out of it. Kids' automatic response to most emergencies is "first, tell a grownup", and for good reason. Fine and good, but if all you zero level guys tell the second and third and fifth level guys, they'll tell you to go home and they'll have all the fun and get all the experience.
True to life perhaps, but makes a sucky RPG. :o
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I like the idea of age appropriate settings. An obvious and easy one is the "school" -- "school of magic", "hero's school" or just regular school but with best friends who use magic and aren't human, an orc for the P.E. teacher, a dwarf running the science class and so on.
Kid detective is also a well developed theme where one should be able to steal lots of idea from various books, and the child can relate to it as well.
Summer camp? Mom and dad think its normal when they sign you up, but after your character arrives things begin to get odd....
actually a "school" figures big in the idea of my first adventure! yes thinks its a good way to start and they can relate to it.
another idea Thom mentioned:
Possible idea would be Dragonslayer's Academy..... this is a book series aimed at 7-9 year olds. Alex and Christian have both read some of the books.
http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Slayers-Academy-Boxed-Set/dp/0439859182
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As obvious examples, during lambing or harvest kids won't be able to spare the time or attention to even notice the seeds of an adventure, much less get involved in it. Not unless it's something that shakes the entire community to its foundations.
Conversely, you can use this as the excuse for why the adults don't have the time or attention to notice the issue and the kids have to deal with it themselves.
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Watch some Anime on Netflix and you can get some good ideas about School's of "X". For X it could be vampires, dragon slayers, zombie slayers, etc. IMHO it is a very common theme used and works well.
MDC
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As obvious examples, during lambing or harvest kids won't be able to spare the time or attention to even notice the seeds of an adventure, much less get involved in it. Not unless it's something that shakes the entire community to its foundations.
Conversely, you can use this as the excuse for why the adults don't have the time or attention to notice the issue and the kids have to deal with it themselves.
Or if it's a tribal-type society the adults could send the kids off to deal with a smaller problem as a test of maturity (or rite of passage), when then turns into something bigger...
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This is also a good one for kids by Firefly games. Nicholas put me onto this one.
http://firefly-games.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=47
Summer camp? Mom and dad think its normal when they sign you up, but after your character arrives things begin to get odd....
I like this idea, perhaps there is a dimensional door to a fairy tale world that is causing havoc with the modern world? And it's up to the kids to close the door with the help of the 'good Fae folk'? Possibilities are endless.
I think I'll wait till the beta RM arrives to make any serious thought on rules and characters etc. It'll be interesting how you make up zero level child characters though. How does one handle child hit points, strength bonuses etc.? RM's focus is on adult characters(I'm not a rules lawyer by the way).
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In terms of game design, I think the biggest single piece of work will be creating monsters/scenarios/treasures suitable for a party of zero level characters. As it stands, a lot of ICE's current fan base starts at above 1st level.
Note that the reason those 3 items are shoved together is because I don't think you can really separate them. If something's nasty enough to challenge them and get their interest, they probably won't be able to beat it at all without some help around the edges, both from the tactical environment of the scenario itself (terrain, weather, etc.) and from treasures placed in context of the story.
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I think you'll find that NPC will play a large part in 'guiding' the players. Also I think it's important to have special items to help them achieve certain goals even if they are a one time use. So yes, I agree with GoF.
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Also I think it's important to have special items to help them achieve certain goals even if they are a one time use. So yes, I agree with GoF.
One of the reasons I phrased it the way I did ("treasures placed in context of the story") was to allow for situations I think will be all too common with zero level characters: There's magic you need to win the scenario that no one has access to at zero level. But while you want to give them the help needed to solve the puzzles and be successful, you don't want to nerf the adventure or munchkinize the players. This may take careful handling in order to not only have magic/herbs/etc. they'll need, but at the end of the adventure have them still be as (or nearly at least) comparatively helpless as zero/first level characters normally are.
And yes, NPCs can probably fill a lot of that function.
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IMHO I think it is possible to have a child (6-12) be 2nd level but after that I think of 3rd being more like 20+.
MDC
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Tarzan killed a bull gorilla in single combat at the age of 10. If he wasn't 1st level before that, he surely was after. Adventures should get kids out of zero level pretty quickly, though I'd have them pick up skills as they went instead of piling experience up to a normal leveling experience, just because at 0 level you need every rank you can get your hands on.
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Thinking out of the box...perhaps we should not think in the terms of levels but in the form of status. This is something I've been mulling over for a little while at least. When the characters start out they're pretty much 'unknown' in the game world. After they've completed an adventure, then their status increases to 'known'. You could have several status tiles such as 'popular', then 'famous', and 'legend' etc. I think this would be more appealing to children then saying they've increased a level. Alternately you could even say that although they've increased their level they haven't increased their status title. And with a higher status title comes the benefits of free/cheaper items, access to certain areas, functions and NPCs etc. Thoughts?
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I like status also as a game mechanic but I have not thought of a good way to implement it yet.
As per experience, I give out DP at 30%, 30% and 40% of the level and allow the players to buy 1 rank per segment (rarely 2 ranks per segment if they are training or spending a lot of time using that skill). IMHO this works very well and I can see kids liking it a lot.
MDC
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I like status also as a game mechanic but I have not thought of a good way to implement it yet.
As per experience, I give out DP at 30%, 30% and 40% of the level and allow the players to buy 1 rank per segment (rarely 2 ranks per segment if they are training or spending a lot of time using that skill). IMHO this works very well and I can see kids liking it a lot.
MDC
Yeah, that's not a bad idea and I used something along those lines when I GMed way back...a gradual increase of skills instead of all at once. I think that it also encourages the players to think on their skills more, the more they use a skill the better you'll be at that skill. Also, I don't think having negatives against a skill that the player doesn't have is encouraging(kill joy)...but that mechanic does remove itself a little from the basis of RM, does it not?
The status mechanic is more based on the surrounding environment and success of the player/groups achievements than the actual skill/level of the player. The character might be the best of the best at several skills but if s/he is new and unknown to the area who will care about who they are, "Don't tell us how good you are, show us!". Use status as the motivation and not the level of the character. As the status is increase it will open more doors of opportunity to more important NPC's, items etc. In time I'll try this idea with my kids once I get the new rules and a little time to get something ready but I can't see this being too hard to implement.
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I know they used Fame in James Bond 007, I will see if I can find my rules and see how they did it. It has also been a long time since I played the game so my memory of just how good the rules were might be off a bit.
MDC
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You should talk with your german partners from 13mann.de. They created a d10 system called Aborea, which is so increadible easy and still has a feeling of RM/HARP (at least with some fantasy and good will). The only thing which I'm missing are the critical hits... but... I know... we want to play with Kids, so it's better to keep the fights a bit more abstract ;)
I will go on holiday tomorrow and we have the box with us. We will try to play it with my 8 year son in the evenings. I hope this works ;)
It MUST have crits! There is nothing more exciting than open ended rolls, come on! You cant lose that. All you need to do is change the descriptions (and simplify the outcomes). but having that heroic, one-swing win is key.
Let us know what you have discovered in your game. Which box BTW - Arborea?
Yes, Aborea and it has open ended rolls (a roll of a 10 is open ended) but no crits :(
We had 4 sessions during our holiday and the players are shortly before level 3, now. It was GREAT! I only wanted to introduce my son into the game, but my daughter (6, not in school, yet) was not willing to stand aside. It was a bit complicated with her, but I think she really enjoyed playing. She always stood up and showed me how her ranger is sneaking around a corner or shooting with the bow. She also did a lot of the talking, which was so much fun! My son on the other hand enjoyed the fighting and rolling of the dice. He was also very "in role" and I think a few times he was really afraid of his dwarf :D
Yupp, we will continue playing, no question, but the tension of battles was high enough, I wouldn't like to increase that with criticals in the next years!
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I know they used Fame in James Bond 007, I will see if I can find my rules and see how they did it. It has also been a long time since I played the game so my memory of just how good the rules were might be off a bit.
MDC
Fame had to do with completing missions and accomplishments during that time, and dealt with how easily a character could be recognized. Hero points were used to alter game outcomes and were gained by QR 1 results on non-combat tasks/skill rolls.