Topic: History of Ulor

[Elrik]

Thrud, lines are meant to be crossed   

Walt, gaming in one hour... let me think on it... I often think in larger pictures, sort of goes with my job. I will also reread your posts, maybe I misunderstood.

What Elrik misunderstand something? Not Elrik!! NOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Walt]

Walt, gaming in one hour... let me think on it... I often think in larger pictures, sort of goes with my job. I will also reread your posts, maybe I misunderstood.

Thanks. At the moment I?m really only at the aspect of Lorgalis closing the Bay of Ulor and the consequences for the mainland because of this (like cutting of the oversea trade routes).
A new question/idea: when Lorgalis owned Ly-Aran, the whole sea-trade of Lehys and Norek was also heavyly endangered. And only U-Lyshak, through it?s Duchy Plasidar and it?s ships in Gul, could offer some safety through escorts.
This would have cost Lethys dearly.

[Elrik]

As always - Lots of theory ---

A new question/idea: when Lorgalis owned Ly-Aran, the whole sea-trade of Lehys and Norek was also heavyly endangered. And only U-Lyshak, through it?s Duchy Plasidar and it?s ships in Gul, could offer some safety through escorts.
This would have cost Lethys dearly.

Rhakhaan, through ambassadors and other contacts would inform every power they had contact with that Lethys will offer deals to traders. Lower taxes, subsidies to relocate their company, free 5 hour(?) docking so that ships can Dock - unload - leave. Rhakhaan would already have ships in the area, so they would focus more on the need to ensure traders safety. With the Lord of Ulor working hard on conquest, U-Lyshak would be counting everyone of their ships, as anything in the bay may be fighting for it's life very shortly. I also think that Norek, although still a sweet spot, does not make everyone that needs time to sell their product feel very safe.

Norek's prices would go up, I can promise you they are paying higher taxes to the crown (war time tax). Norek and the Kingdom need to bolster their defences to protect from the inevitable attack from Ly-aran (or directly from the bay). Some traders will be ok with the increase in price, others will move along.

One of the things I always wondered was Naval Powers in Rhakhaan. We don't see all that much ship info, as the waters around Jaiman are treacherous. Lorgalis chose the Bay, not just for it's staging area, but for it's comparatively safe water. From the Cannon information, I never got the impression that the kingdom's on Jaiman where every really water savvy.

Also, considering how many ships would be travelling near Plasidar, I don't think U-lyshak had the sea power to spare to escort ships from point A to point B. Those war ships have important things to do, keep the bad guys away from U-Lyshak waters, but if you have 6 warships helping 12 trading vessels (it is never that neat), and those warships are not in possession  should an attack happen, you have a huge hole in your defence or worse, not enough power to stop the invaders.

NOW, at this point, I can see Norek having "issues" with pirates. Some industrious individuals, from Norek, that realize sometimes you just have to take matters into your own hands. Norek would probably even swear at those pirates, as they drank that wonderful wine they bought from those same cursed pirates.

Still short on details...

[egdcltd]

I would think that any military ships are more than likely going to be coastal vessels. Although the technology exists to build better, the military is unlikely to have any need for them. The dangers of sea travel due to flow storms and the like, and the increased cost, make it too expensive to begin colonization/conquest of other lands. I think the Emerian Empire was the only power that tried that on any scale, and that was with the backing of a continent behind them. Rhakhaan has far too many land based concerns to look into colonization currently, so ships, outside the Bay of Ulor, are probably coastal defence and military support. The majority of deep sea ships are likely to be traders.

[Walt]

Don?t forget, still talking abozt the Second Era. Not to many too much land concerns for the Rhakhaan EMpire in the time between 4000 and 5000 SE. And I think we have to seperate the Bay of Ulor and the Bay of Lethys.
In the Second Era the entrance to the Bay of Ulor is completly dominated by Ulor. But the Bay of Lethys (by the way, the southern part of Rhakhaan must be really bad cliffs, otherwise their would have been a big port located) is only partially contolled by Ulor, because in this time Gul in Plasidar was a pretty big port and Plasidar itself a duchy of U-Lyshak.
So Norek and U-Lyshak could very well dominate the Rhkahaan Empire

[Elrik]

I hint at it and egdcltd explains well, water is not the best way to ensure your boarders. Lots of bad weather and those tasty flows keep your kingdom held firm.

I think this is more ramble then rational

Prior to the Crowns, the kingdoms where lusting for land as Rhakaan is now. The moment Rhakhaan started to feel a bit uneasy regarding the behaviour of U-lyshak, there would be a conversation between the two powers. If an agreement can not be reached, soldiers would start to be moved, other kingdoms pulled into the argument. I would be inclined to think that Plasidor had to rely on other ports to deliver wood or build ships, as they would have easily got through their natural resources in the thousands of years of occupation.

Dominating the Bay of Deadly Breakers, Nea Bay, and Boiling Sea of Aranmor, could be an act of war. Denying trade, controlling trade to the extent that Lehtys suffered, especially when it is the one and only (exaggeration) access Rhakhaan has to water is a call to war. War would have been hard to do once the Helms had been used. Did the helms make kingdoms play nice? Yes. So during the Helm periods they would have played "fair" and in the process ticked off all those lords and wannabe lord that wish to gain power through land. 

But on the other side, perhaps Plasidore is a clearing house. A number of ships would see Plasidar as a perfect place to sell, unload and move on. Saves them from moving further into dangerous bays, their cargo becomes someone elses problem. Trading houses could move items from Plasidar to Norek or Lehtys. So now U-lyshak and Plasidore take on the security of the Bay. The other countries realize that they may be losing some money, but save huge by not having to pay for extra ships, more sailors and soldiers. It would not be in Plasidar's best interest to isolate Rhakhaan and Zor.

Before the helms, Rhakhaan and Zor could have easily joined to slap U-Lyshak around. Then those damn boring helms ruined all the good times. With Logalis knocking on U-lyshaks back door, I doubt they wanted a multi-kingdom confrontation. Again, with the crowns that all went to pot, Lorgalis had to go and sit on the comfy lap of Uncle Unlife.


Still feel it is missing a number of angles, but this is a huge time zone.

[Walt]

Still feel it is missing a number of angles, but this is a huge time zone.

That?s why I tend to focus often only on one aspect and discuss it extensive. Othervise often answers only tend to be overhelming overall. But the picture becomes clearer and clearer

I hint at it and egdcltd explains well, water is not the best way to ensure your boarders. Lots of bad weather and those tasty flows keep your kingdom held firm.

I think this is more ramble then rational

I?m aware that in the old supplements was not to much information about trade, trade routes, etc. But I think we shouldn?t assume because of this that there wasn?t any ongoing trade between Emer and Jaiman and the other continents. The first information I saw is in the last pages of the second Master Atlas, where is pointed out that the sea trade routes between Sel-Kai and Lethys and Danarchis and Lethys are "heavilly travelled".
I would even assume that Sea Trade, and the perils of Sea trade, are one of the mayor sources of income for the Navigator guilds.

Prior to the Crowns, the kingdoms where lusting for land as Rhakaan is now. The moment Rhakhaan started to feel a bit uneasy regarding the behaviour of U-lyshak, there would be a conversation between the two powers. If an agreement can not be reached, soldiers would start to be moved, other kingdoms pulled into the argument. I would be inclined to think that Plasidor had to rely on other ports to deliver wood or build ships, as they would have easily got through their natural resources in the thousands of years of occupation.

Dominating the Bay of Deadly Breakers, Nea Bay, and Boiling Sea of Aranmor, could be an act of war. Denying trade, controlling trade to the extent that Lehtys suffered, especially when it is the one and only (exaggeration) access Rhakhaan has to water is a call to war. War would have been hard to do once the Helms had been used. Did the helms make kingdoms play nice? Yes. So during the Helm periods they would have played "fair" and in the process ticked off all those lords and wannabe lord that wish to gain power through land. 

But on the other side, perhaps Plasidore is a clearing house. A number of ships would see Plasidar as a perfect place to sell, unload and move on. Saves them from moving further into dangerous bays, their cargo becomes someone elses problem. Trading houses could move items from Plasidar to Norek or Lehtys. So now U-lyshak and Plasidore take on the security of the Bay. The other countries realize that they may be losing some money, but save huge by not having to pay for extra ships, more sailors and soldiers. It would not be in Plasidar's best interest to isolate Rhakhaan and Zor.

Before the helms, Rhakhaan and Zor could have easily joined to slap U-Lyshak around. Then those damn boring helms ruined all the good times. With Logalis knocking on U-lyshaks back door, I doubt they wanted a multi-kingdom confrontation. Again, with the crowns that all went to pot, Lorgalis had to go and sit on the comfy lap of Uncle Unlife.

Thanks for this aspect, this gives also a lot of possible and potential history. So before 3750 SE their is a good possibility of U-Lyshak and Rhakhaan fighting over the Plasidar island. The effects, distrust etc are possible even felt in the Third Era.

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Walt, Elrik, et al,

I'm not sure how 'canon' it's considered, but there was some information on Kulthean Ships, aquatic creatures and servants of the Unlife- Black Coral, Ghost Ships, etc in the old Sea Law book.

From my hazy recollections, it was geared towards use in Shadow World- but I'm not sure how much input Terry had into it.

My copy's somewhere in my parents loft- but for some reason the name 'Aavars' sticks in my mind with regards one of the the main shipbuilders in Rhakhaan. Perhaps someone else has got their copy closer to hand and can shed some more light on Sea Law.....

Hope this helps.

All the Best,

Kevin.

[egdcltd]

I?m aware that in the old supplements was not to much information about trade, trade routes, etc. But I think we shouldn?t assume because of this that there wasn?t any ongoing trade between Emer and Jaiman and the other continents. The first information I saw is in the last pages of the second Master Atlas, where is pointed out that the sea trade routes between Sel-Kai and Lethys and Danarchis and Lethys are "heavilly travelled".
I would even assume that Sea Trade, and the perils of Sea trade, are one of the mayor sources of income for the Navigator guilds.

I agree. Hence, that's why I think most deep sea craft will be traders, rather than military. The expense of attempting military operations over any sort of distance at sea will be too high, especially when paying for Navigators - and considering Navigators won't transport anything they consider military -  when you don't even have secure borders at home.

[Walt]

You are right. I?m trying to get the feeling for the trade, trade routes, consequences of disturbing the trade routes. And I also think that most deep sea traffic will be traders.
What?s your personal feeling towards the capabilities of Lorgalis, with his knowledge, builing better ships? And what?s your feeling towards the skills of the Elven Kingdom of Remiraith?

[Walt]

As always Gents, my two bits. If you don't like Terry's time line, just switch up the names and faces to suit. - Far from a complete list and very long.


The whole trade of Saralis, U-Lyshak and most of the trade of Zor (before it?s destruction) would have gone through Cynar and Norek. And their would have been a big rivalry between Norek and Lethys.

Not necessarily Walt. Zor had some low lands along the the inland seas, there are also two large arteries from L'kyran (lower inland sea) to the Bay of Ulor. When Zor was a power they could have very easily taken the inland seas to Lu'nak, Saralis, even to Rhakhaan and U-Lyshak. By taking the arteries the inland kingdom's had a much faster route to the outside of the west side if Jaiman. In the day and age of Rhakhaan ruling a huge portion of Jaiman, they would still be using those inland sea routes. As my father said to me my entire life, a straight line is faster. I also think it would be cheaper and offer less danger. Sure there are inland waterway pirates, but not near as many as bandits. Also, as great as the old highways may be, they lack a military presence in a number of areas making merchants a fat target. At least on the water ways, you cut that target in half, and cut the travel down by a 1/4.

So what do you do now that you have established trade on the inside coast of Saralis, you make deals with the Warlords and Jiax, The King of Saral. Which Rhakhaan would do. Trade is a must, by both land and sea, or Jaix and the Warlords can't pay off their loans, can't make further loans, can't build fortifications, pay builders, stonemasons, smiths, buy horses, pay soldiers, people to cloth the soldiers, food, cattle, gardens and peasants, cart builders... holy crap I can go on for a while.

So all of these power players are bolstering their defences and coffers by trade, raiding, conquest and expansion of farming lands, lumbering and building ships, river boats, fishing vessels. They need people, possibly offer land to those willing to swear an oath to help and not steal away profit. The honour of these warlords may be suspect, but I am thinking that the self styled King Jaix is playing nice. He would fortify everything within 100 miles and run skeleton units, bolstering his soldiers with mercenaries and local militias. Those militias may not have a choice in this. He may be forced to accept Rhakhaan forces, and once in, they will never leave. While he builds his strength up he will be sending negotiators to every warlord, but only offering real deals to those that can help him. Rhakhaan will be doing the same thing, Jaix will be looking to gain time out of these negotiation, while Rhakhaan will be looking for remote powers to build on. If Rhakhaan can get a warlord or two to work with Jaix, then it serves the Empires interests. If they can build a contingency plan in case Jaix crashes, then they will float between who they feel is the better option.

So now Jaix will work his serfs to the bone, claim and sell as much produce, fish/sea creatures, minerals as he can. He will need trading companies to take these products and he will have to sell at a smaller margin since his people may not own enough ships.

To encourage trade, he may give shipping companies a lease that lets them bypass certain taxes and tariffs. At this point Warlords will want a bit of his pie. They will start to in-fight, raids against mines, taking produce trains, Money will be a target, so the lock boxes that are being transported by other soldiers. Now there is corruption...

The Smart Warlords will probably sign on with Jaix, gaining a title of Duke. With Rhakaan backing them, there would be a sense of legitimacy to the title and the lands held  by the warlord. These new Dukes may even ask for advisers, who will play a balancing act across the country trying to keep things stable while ensuring Rhakhaans interests.

What about the monsters, lugroki, garks and, add a dozen cults. Warlords sometime make friends with the wrong sort of Mages, sometimes with forces they really don't understand. Now a freshly minted Duke has a problem with one of his former allies. A necromancer or even Litch, or just a real mean SOB of a mage makes trouble, angry that he didn't get what was ?promised?.

Raiders from all sides, dip into profits, as merchants are forced to take more dangerous ways and some just don't bother. So the raiders have to be dealt with.

Lets not forget about the new Duke playing his own games, trying to undermine the King so that he can step in and become king. Now you have a strange tension between all the powers, yet they will trade and smile at each other because they need each other.

Rhakhaan will offer less tax on merchants going to Saralis, ship captains pay half the docking toll. Maybe a ministry will offer funds for merchants to go to Saralis. New roads will be built, fortifications expanded and new structures planned. Promises of land on this new frontier. One day Jaix is King the next he is a figure head for the Emperor.

I would say that with Rhakhaan's help, Saralis will see an unprecedented growth. Even if people don't feel safe they will go there, hoping to make more money on the first wave work. Every copper that Rhakhaan offers comes with a string.

You may even see war ships in the bay of Ulor, making a clear presence to discourage pirates.

Although this may seem like an annoyance for Rhakhaan, it just means Rhakhaan doesn't have to bare the brunt of the work. They can offer skilled craftsmen, resources, soldiers, training for soldiers, administrators and teachers.  Rhakhaan may even provide a spy network, which will of course keep as much an eye on Jaix as the realm.

As for outside traders, I don't think Ulor wants the attention just yet. In the past Ulor would have taken what they want or charged a hefty fee to travel their water ways. Yet who is to say that Ulor didn't just let things happen, once he takes over Jaiman, he will need these traders as much as the current leaders do.

Now we have people creating hard lines for borders, unknown powers will look for ways to gain from all this sudden organization and order. Minor players could become major ones with a clever deal or betrayal.

That is just the beginning dood. What about the Lords from Rhakhaan that move the Saralis and demand land and rights? Or the churches, with the Church of Orhan demand entry to these new lands? Those cults are dug in deep, who will remove them? A local lord wants to spy on another, who will do that dirty work. A Duke kidnaps another Lords wife and the Lord wants her back ? alive and healthy... Merchants need guards. Forts want mercenaries. Sea Captains need bodies to help fend off pirates. 

Of course, everything will have a string attached, and each string will lead back to the Emperor.

So, rereading your post I?m wondering of which time you spoke about in your post? Second Era or Third?

Only to summarize shortly the mayor events and/or periods of the Second Era:
3833 SE: Lorgalis annexes Xa?ar and becomes a major threat
3910 SE: The coronations of the 6 realms
4980 SE: The destruction of Zor
(I altimes had the feeling that somehow Zor dominated the 6 kingdoms)
At this time the Phoenix slowly rises because
Zor is devasted
Saralis, U-Lyshak and even Tanra run into internal and external problems because they don?t wear the crowns regulary
and finally 5899-5905 the Bahaar wipes out most of the population of western Jaiman
6028 King Arej IX declares himself the Emperor of all Jaiman and starts his war agains Urulan (by the way, I never understood why the Elves of Urulan, fleeing the war with the Rhkhaan Empire, fled into the Blue Forest or, worse, Remiraith - located quite next to the Empire they were avoiding.
In the meantime Lorgalis starts again to move into U-Lyshak (does anybody know if the the Ordainer sacking Cynar and the Ordainer Kharuugh killing the king of Saralis in 6521 SE were both the same Ordainer?)

[egdcltd]

Deep sea trade routes are probably controlled by traders operating out of Sel-Kai. They're close, they have the boats, experience, air ships (if required) and no real landwards threat to them. They do trade with Lethys and Haalkintaine.

Lorgalis probably has more of a naval focus than other Jaiman powers. After all, he's on an island, and to get anywhere will require boats. However, he will probably operate mostly in the Bay of Ulor, and that's one of the few places where galleys would be useful (there's a tendency for fantasy settings to stick galleys everywhere, even though they'd probably sink). A mostly enclosed bay is going to be somewhat calmer. He may well have the knowledge to build advanced sailing ships, but, on Ulor at least, lack the infrastructure, and outside the Bay would more than likely use swift coastal raiders.

I doubt the elven kingdom would have much interest in naval matters - except probably killing interlopers who want to build ships from their trees. There doesn't seem to be any information suggesting that the elves of Remiraith are as advanced as those of Namar-Tol, or are even Loari. If they're related to the elves who lived in the Blue Forest, which would appear to be the case, they're Erlini, so more concerned with pastoral matters.

[Walt]

Deep sea trade routes are probably controlled by traders operating out of Sel-Kai. They're close, they have the boats, experience, air ships (if required) and no real landwards threat to them. They do trade with Lethys and Haalkintaine.

For the sea traffic, not the air ships, I see the major ports in Jaiman in the Second Era more in Gul and Norek instead than Lethys. Like pointed out in the above posts that?s because of the location and geography of Jaiman. And the most prominent trading partner, together with Sel-Kai, probably would be Danarchis, the nearest port in Emer.

Lorgalis probably has more of a naval focus than other Jaiman powers. After all, he's on an island, and to get anywhere will require boats. However, he will probably operate mostly in the Bay of Ulor, and that's one of the few places where galleys would be useful (there's a tendency for fantasy settings to stick galleys everywhere, even though they'd probably sink). A mostly enclosed bay is going to be somewhat calmer. He may well have the knowledge to build advanced sailing ships, but, on Ulor at least, lack the infrastructure, and outside the Bay would more than likely use swift coastal raiders.

Thanks, the swift coastal raiders I will include in the setting. So for the coastal traffic in the Second Era after the fall of Xa?ar my assumption could be correct, the the sea traffic between Saralis and U-Lyshak was mostly near the coast, with swift Ulor raiders attacking the ships and different type of warships stationed at the Watchtower locations trying to keep the Ulor raiders away.

I was also wondering if the longlived Lorgalis already developed major improvments in ship-building. And with the ressources of Ly-Aran after 3750 SE he wouldn?t have any supply problems.

I doubt the elven kingdom would have much interest in naval matters - except probably killing interlopers who want to build ships from their trees. There doesn't seem to be any information suggesting that the elves of Remiraith are as advanced as those of Namar-Tol, or are even Loari. If they're related to the elves who lived in the Blue Forest, which would appear to be the case, they're Erlini, so more concerned with pastoral matters.

Yep, that?s right-the Remiraith is a blank white spot. But I was wondering if they could have gained some knowledge through their cousins. And even if their is not to much information about the elvish sea trade tradition, they still could be very efficient with their knowledge.
Another thing which could had happend is some kind of alliance with Norek, promoting ship building in the region. Remember, in our world this was over the time one of the best secured know-hows: how to manufacture good ships. (e.g. Arsenal in Venice)

[egdcltd]

After Lorgalis conquered Xa'ar, but before the forging of the crowns, he controlled the Bay completely. Afterwards, the Flows were altered and created sea lanes for ships to flee the pirates of Ulor.

I'd favour galleys during this period, built in Xa'ar. There's a fair amount of wood there. Galleys are fast, not subject to wind for power or steering, and good for commerce raiding. Especially if you're not after profit, just sending ships to the bottom. Simply ram everything that moves. Venice, during it's heyday, mostly had galleys. They'd mostly be suitable in the Bay though.

Ship improvements could make a major difference, especially regarding rigging. However, if you equip your ships with new rigging, sooner or later someone is going to capture one and copy it. Would Lorgalis want better technology in the hands of people he wants to conquer? Sure, it would make an initial difference to him, but he's going to be thinking long term, given his life span. Perhaps better to keep tech fairly stagnant and rely on strength in numbers.

[Walt]

After Lorgalis conquered Xa'ar, but before the forging of the crowns, he controlled the Bay completely. Afterwards, the Flows were altered and created sea lanes for ships to flee the pirates of Ulor.

Wow, okay, this would annihilate my full line of argumentation.
So how would you perceive this kind of sea lanes, of altered flows?

[Elrik]

In the meantime Lorgalis starts again to move into U-Lyshak (does anybody know if the the Ordainer sacking Cynar and the Ordainer Kharuugh killing the king of Saralis in 6521 SE were both the same Ordainer?)

I would say yes, This is the same Ordainer that moves in and up from Ly-aran, and it takes him about 7 years to get to  Cynar

[egdcltd]

So how would you perceive this kind of sea lanes, of altered flows?

Essence Barriers? They're considered to be similar to walls, although with the proper skills they can be breached. Not sure if I like the idea of building walls across the Bay though.

[Walt]

Me neither!! But it would be nice to look at: imagine this cone like essaence flow, open to the west, narrowing towards the gap between Ulor and Xa?ar. And than imagine strong west winds. And this deep sea trader, beating against the wind and the currents, day after days to gain one nautical mile!
Wouldn?t be my favorite see trade route either!

[Elrik]

SEI 3910 - Even the Flows of Ess?nce are altered, creating magical boundaries and sea lanes.

One mans shipping lane is another mans pirating lane. I don't think the power of the crowns cut off Ulor, or locked down the bay. I think they just stabilized the flows to everyones benefit. Yes they guard the boarders but that is along the main lands, from other details in the time line the boarders range was a few hundred feet off he coast.

TEI 6051 - The Priest of Yaarth vanishes from the battlefield [he flees to his tower, which is able to survive even this onslaught. Placed offshore, it is just outside the Crown-defined boundary. And the Priest still has the Sea Drake pendant.]

Sorry Walt, my times are before and after the crowns... I should have put dates to clean up the facts.

[egdcltd]

Okay, after looking through various modules, here's what I've come up with.

Lorgalis occupies and fortifies Ulor, then sends troops and ships against Ly-aran, quickly conquering it and probably killing off a substantial percentage of the population.SEI 3750 - 3833.

He then turn his attention northwards towards Xa'ar, conquering that. SEI 3833 - 3835.

After this, Lorgalis secures his hold on the two peninsulas, and embars on a ship building campaign. As he has no need for profit, his ships raid the towns nad cties around the bay, sinking military, trading and fishing craft, helping destabilize the region. Essentially, the Bay of Ulor is Lorgalis' private boating lake.

Sea trade amongst the areas surrounding the Bay pretty much dies away. Many of their former trading partners are now under Lorgalis' sway, and he has no interest in fostering trade. The remainder are under constant threat and attack by his troops. Any trade in the region moves south to the bay Lethys is on. This is far enough away from Lorgalis' centres of power that this area is kept out of his control. Norek starts to arise at about this time, but does not start to become a major player until millennia later. Most of the trade in the region goes through Lethys.

Emerian trade: The Masters of Emer are starting to lose their grip on Emer. Haestra is one of the last remaining areas under their control. Although Danarchis does not yet exist as a kingdom, its' situation being close to Emer and one of the last holdouts of the masters means a lot of trade is funneled through this are. Sel-Kai has not even been founded yet.

The Navigator Guilds have only recently been founded, and only in the last century or so have they banded together. Navigators are still somewhat rare, making inter-continental navigation pretty dangerous.

This situation effectively continues until the forging of the Crowns in 3910. After this, direct military action by Lorgalis becomes much harder, and he concentrates on more devious means. The Priests Arnak are created in 4000, and become a useful tool/ally.