Author Topic: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns  (Read 3344 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 674
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« on: January 12, 2013, 05:21:20 AM »
Call that a personal quirk if you will...

I've used SW Atlas 4 as a basis to sum up the various climate patterns on Emer, then to come up with non-Essaential reasons why such patterns would exist.

I freely admit I have limited knowledge on that topic. However, I drew a complete blank on a number of climate patterns that apparently could not be connected to simple causes such as prevailing winds, oceanic currents and/or major geographical features such as mountain ranges (up or downwind).

Is there any purely geographical rationale for emerian climate patterns and, if there is, is it possible to get it ?

[note : the handful of information on prevailing winds / oceanic currents available in the Eidolon / Sel-Kai sourcebook would be a nice start... but I can't see how those could generate the climates provided in SWMA4]

Offline Terry K. Amthor

  • Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,976
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Great Book
    • Eidolon Studio
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2013, 08:35:34 AM »
Call that a personal quirk if you will...

I've used SW Atlas 4 as a basis to sum up the various climate patterns on Emer, then to come up with non-Essaential reasons why such patterns would exist.

I freely admit I have limited knowledge on that topic. However, I drew a complete blank on a number of climate patterns that apparently could not be connected to simple causes such as prevailing winds, oceanic currents and/or major geographical features such as mountain ranges (up or downwind).

Is there any purely geographical rationale for emerian climate patterns and, if there is, is it possible to get it ?

[note : the handful of information on prevailing winds / oceanic currents available in the Eidolon / Sel-Kai sourcebook would be a nice start... but I can't see how those could generate the climates provided in SWMA4]

Not having SWMA4 in front of me (and being so eager to get back to NPC charts), I will say that I think there is some logic to it, but when you look at climate patterns on earth and the moving jetstream and such, things are all over the place here as well. I give some explanation for the climates in SE Emer, but some of it is Flows, underwater currents, volcanic heating, you name it.
Terry K. Amthor
Shadow World Author, Rolemaster & SpaceMaster Co-Designer, ICE co-founder.
Eidolon Studio Art Director


"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
-- Clarke's First Law.

Offline Guillaume

  • Wise Elder
  • ***
  • Posts: 889
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • Kulthean Fanatic
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2013, 02:05:26 AM »
Climate is something very tricky, especially on a continental ( or planetary ) size.

Now, compared to good old Earth climate, Kulthean climate has more variables ( The Eyes, the Essaence Flows, the Essaence Storms ) so it's even more tricky.

Now to add my two cents in the old Master Atlas Box there's a booklet named Atlas Addendum with 3 World Maps : Essaence Flows ( and Focus ), Volcanic Centers & Tectonic Plates ( well not truly places, but seismic zones ) and Weather Patterns ( actually Oceanic Currents, Jetstream and Trade wind )
514 to see, 416 to lock, 614 to shot...Target downed...Ask the marines to pick up the pieces.

RM, RM2, RMSS, RMFRP, HARP,  MERP, Cyberspace, SM, SM2, SM:P, Star Strike, Armored Assault, SD , SD : The Next Millenium, Bladestorm, Battle of the Five Armies .... Collecting ICE production since the epoch...

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 674
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2013, 12:43:29 PM »
Please note that I said "non-Essaential reasons" :)

I am a firm believer of "less magic is better" when trying to justify the making of a world. As a result, I try to find mundane, real-world physics reasons why the world would be as it is.

After a quick brainstorming session based on the oceanic currents and prevailing winds chart provided in Eidolon sourcebook for Emer, I tried to match the provided data with the climate patterns provided in MA4 and had to change a handful of things :
-  SW Emer (Uj) is mostly OK if you assume that the southwesternmost peninsula is a mountain range of significant height. Most rainfall occurs on the western and southern coastline, and the interior, especially at higher elevations (Charn Plateau, eastern desert) suffers from prevailing winds that have "dried up".
- SE Emer (Rael, Onar, Khum-Kaan, Namar-Tol) is basically OK. I would add a prevailing wind pattern running from the Circular Sea along the southern coast of Rulaash, then bending northwards to sweep coastal Lygaar, skirting the inland. This would provide much moisture on the coastal area but much less inland, creating savannah-like vegetation. An interesting side effect is that Namar-Tol is noticeably cooler on its eastern side than on its western side.
- NE Emer is changed : first, the prevailing winds go northwards in Tai-Emer and in the Sea of Tears - these are the same winds as in Khum-Kaan, but the winds are drier because most humidity was dropped in Lygaar and on the southern slopes of the Peligris. This explains why southern Tai-Emer is very dry.
Second, the current and prevailing winds that run along the eastern Silaar coast, the Sel archipel and Praeten are reversed : instead of coming from the northwest and circling clockwise, they come from the southeast and go counterclockwise, running along the northern Haestran coastline, including Danarchis. Since the cold currents coming from the north on both sides of Jaiman still exist, this creates very intense weather conditions in the Melurian Straits (the current running southwards along Urulan is bent eastward towards Orbis, and the one coming along Ly-Aran curls back up into the Elysean Bay). This also matches the fact that there is a very sharp difference between climates along the northern edge of Emer and climates in southern Jaiman north of the Melurian heights.
- Likewise, the current running along the western Haestran coastline is reversed : it runs along the northern side of the Komaren, then bends northwards towards Danarchis and the Barrier Isles. Another arm of this current curls back around Barellis and Rashelles and meets the cold flow that comes from the north along the southern edge of the Barrier Isles. The interesting thing is that the wind patterns come from the northwest (Thesmoq) and hit the Haestran coastline along its mountain edge, dropping huge amounts of precipitation on the western side of the Gold Mountains and the northern Scorpion Ridge. The interior is drier.

The remaining problem is the inland Haestran climate, which is much cooler than everything around. The easiest way to meet this behaviour is to make Haestra into a plateau that slopes down from the Spine of Emer towards the sea. It is probably quite high, perhaps 2000ft or more. Stroane and eastern Miir would be the coldest areas. Vornia would be warmer because of its slightly lower mean altitude and influx from the Bay of Izar.  Bodlea would be fairly cool, but wet because there is no mountain range to stop cloud-born humidity incoming from the sea. The Sea of Votania would likely be a collapse basin, with a nice altitude drop all along the Stroane coast which would be quite steep most of the time.

Note that I did not include Coriolis-induced wind patterns.

I will try to scrounge up the old MA1 maps to see if they provide more global trends.

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 09:42:33 AM »
Please note that I said "non-Essaential reasons" :)

I am a firm believer of "less magic is better" when trying to justify the making of a world. As a result, I try to find mundane, real-world physics reasons why the world would be as it is.
But, you are talking about Shadow World, not a homebrew where magic is low - or where ever you want it to be. On Kulthea, Essaence is a major force, it affects everything on the planet, from microbes to the weather. Cutting it out of the equation is a mistake, in my opinion, and is like cutting out the Sun's effects on our planetary weather, or like doing E=(blank)C2, it just doesn't add up.

Plus, it is a great way to explain unusual weather patterns. Like a freak Flow Storm causing the temperature in S. Jamain and N. Emer to be colder for a few weeks - which you need it to be for an adventure. 
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline craggles

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 621
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • I intend to live forever ... or die trying!
    • Personal Sketchpad
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 10:51:24 AM »
The Shadow World is all about the Essænce (Not to be confused with one of the three realms of Magic - Essence) and as mentioned before, the 'real world physics' have very little to do with the shaping of the continents or the weather patterns.

If you want to play it as a 'low-magic' setting, you can easily argue that the interference of the surrounding Essænce makes spell use very difficult, if not impossible or you can simply reshape the climate zones to conform to how 'real world physics' would work as you've done so above very competently.

...but then the maps are but a fraction of what the Shadow World really is and to only use that small portion of it is doing it an injustice. ;)
Logo Rolemaster (Unified). Illustration of 2 Covers.
Logo Re-Vamp of Shadow World.
Illustration, Page Design & Layout of Shadow World Players Guide - The World.
Illustration of various other Shadow World products
Logo Design, Page Design & Layout of HARP SF & SFX
Feel free to browse my gallery

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 674
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2013, 12:10:50 AM »
I *know* that Essaence is a major factor in Shadow World. And I never said I wanted to play in a magic-low setting.

However, if I do not know how things happen without Essaence, the only rationale I can provide when detailing the effect on Essaence on the world is "it's magic". Which is definitely *not* satisfying, especially when you have players who try to understand *how* Essaence affects (and interacts with) the world and how the ripples propagate.

Nothing exists in a bottle, isolated from the rest. If the Essaence affects part of an area's climate or weather, this will have a ripple effect and will affect other parts, modifying wind patterns, changing currents, pushing species out of their native habitats and into others. The world might have been a vast bio/geoengineering experiment a very long time ago, but afterwards, it evolved because of actions and reactions, pushes and shoves, frictions between the Essaence and the natural laws.

Thus my attempt to find out how it all works when everything is connected. And I find it much easier to use the Essaence as one force among many, not as a GM fiat to justify the impossible.

Offline craggles

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 621
  • OIC Points +0/-0
  • I intend to live forever ... or die trying!
    • Personal Sketchpad
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2013, 04:58:27 AM »
Aaaah - I see what you're saying now. :)

BUT the Essænce isn't something that obeys natural laws and can't be measured as such. It doesn't have an even effect on everything.

I'm not sure if this is still cannon but I remember the Altheans were trying to tap into an unlimited energy supply using another dimension and in doing so, teared the fabric of space/time and released the Essænce from this other dimension and it's flows don't obey the laws of physics as we know them. These flows of Essænce have shaped the landscape more than any wind or water currents have and it was these flows that have also been unseen barricades for centuries allowing civilisations to grow and exist in isolation from one another. I think the Althean's meddling in extra-dimensional power is what released the Lords of Orhan into the world as well. (I think I remember that from the original Shadow World Atlas 1 and/or Emer source book with the Atlas Addendum. I may have miss-remembered some of that, I read those so long ago and the newer Atlas' may tell a different story now as well).

My memory aside, the flows of Essænce isn't just 'magic'. A Player's Character may perceive it is as such but then they'd also perceive technology as 'magic' and may not have any knowledge of how weather shapes a landscape over time and why an area is hot and another is cold. A Player, however, knows this from high school though and, thanks to countless sci-fi shows now, also knows of 'other dimensions' as well as various story lines of people trying to harness energy from them and the associated complications. Essænce isn't magic - it's energy from another dimension that obeys the law's of physics from it's OWN dimension - not ours (or Kulthea's).
Logo Rolemaster (Unified). Illustration of 2 Covers.
Logo Re-Vamp of Shadow World.
Illustration, Page Design & Layout of Shadow World Players Guide - The World.
Illustration of various other Shadow World products
Logo Design, Page Design & Layout of HARP SF & SFX
Feel free to browse my gallery

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2013, 07:45:40 AM »
MisterK,
 When magic is around IMHO things can exist in a bottle. I am not saying that is the case in SW but I think that it is possible for "magic" to create big disturbances without affecting things in other areas.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline Alten

  • Neophyte
  • *
  • Posts: 47
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2013, 11:53:53 AM »
Bit of an aside - remember the Belgariad? The moment when Garion summons a thunderstom in order to make a diplomatic point? His fellow sorcerers have to spend months afterwards trying to quell the unbalancing effects on the world weather; he gets the scolding of a lifetime and is in effect banned from altering the weather for at least a thousand years.

Now that may be a bit extreme, but having magically-modified weather have repercussions is a good way of controlling player use of such, so I would not go with the "in a bottle approach," more a median treatment.
As you wish...

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2013, 03:28:18 PM »
However, if I do not know how things happen without Essaence, the only rationale I can provide when detailing the effect on Essaence on the world is "it's magic". Which is definitely *not* satisfying, especially when you have players who try to understand *how* Essaence affects (and interacts with) the world and how the ripples propagate.
Wanting to know something and being able to are two different things. Why should they get to know the great mysteries of the world when many a learned scholar is still only guessing as to the reasons for those very same things, after decades of study? What I am getting at, is that maybe keeping some mystery, so as to keep the players guessing is more dramatic than them learning everything. Which will ultimatly make it very boring, imo. (Heck, just about every scientific theory in the world really is just believing that a+b=c, right up until 56 jumps in and blows that theory out of the water.)
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline jdale

  • RMU Dev Team
  • ****
  • Posts: 7,124
  • OIC Points +25/-25
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2013, 04:47:36 PM »
However, if I do not know how things happen without Essaence, the only rationale I can provide when detailing the effect on Essaence on the world is "it's magic". Which is definitely *not* satisfying, especially when you have players who try to understand *how* Essaence affects (and interacts with) the world and how the ripples propagate.
Wanting to know something and being able to are two different things. Why should they get to know the great mysteries of the world when many a learned scholar is still only guessing as to the reasons for those very same things, after decades of study? What I am getting at, is that maybe keeping some mystery, so as to keep the players guessing is more dramatic than them learning everything. Which will ultimatly make it very boring, imo. (Heck, just about every scientific theory in the world really is just believing that a+b=c, right up until 56 jumps in and blows that theory out of the water.)

What's important is that this kind of player believes that there is an explanation. As long as that's true, it's something for them to pay attention to and make part of their decision to understand the world, even if it's difficult. If they believe it's random, then they will disregard it and it adds little to the game.
System and Line Editor for Rolemaster

Offline RandalThor

  • Sage
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,116
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2013, 11:19:34 AM »
Oh sure. In fact, I believe there is a reason behind everything, even if that reason is "the magical energies inherent to the world and the way they flow cause the strange weather." I just think that the players don't need to be able to learn everything. Trying to explain everything down to the molecular level is not only unnecessary, but wrong thinking for a fantasy character. Assuming magic (and the gods) have something to do with how things work, is.
Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Scratch that. Power attracts the corruptible.

Rules should not replace the brain and thinking.

Offline MisterK

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 674
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2013, 11:47:57 PM »
I see this thread degenerating into a "you don't need to know" vs "I need to know" argument. While this might be an interesting side discussion, this was not my intention at all - after all, I know quite well what *I* want or need as a GM and I also know quite well that other people do not find it necessary.

Oh well. If no global rationale exists, I can always make my own. After all source material is only a set of guidelines :p

Offline vroomfogle

  • Moderator
  • ****
  • Posts: 3,670
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 09:31:03 AM »
MisterK, I think this is a great subject, and I'd be interested in a final climate map if you make one.

Offline markc

  • Elder Loremaster
  • ****
  • Posts: 10,697
  • OIC Points +0/-0
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2013, 02:47:13 PM »
  I was just going to suggest that you might contact Matt Hanson to see if he had any more information. But as you can see above this post he is very interested in what you do and I think how you come about doing it.
MDC
Bacon Law: A book so good all PC's need to be recreated.
Rule #0: A GM has the right to change any rule in a book to fit their game.
Role Play not Roll Play.
Use a System to tell the story do not let the system play you.

Offline B Hanson

  • Senior Adept
  • **
  • Posts: 665
  • OIC Points +0/-0
    • Rolemasterblog
Re: Probably silly question about emerian climate patterns
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2013, 05:01:55 PM »
As we gather here, of primary importance is to answer this question: what is this “Viir”, as we now call it, this seeming essential force that newly permeates our planetary system?  Let us review.  It’s been almost 75 years since our orbital sensors first detected these energy emissioins.  Tachyon detectors, plasma traps, electron screens and a variety of other particle shields all registered this force—all of them.  Is it all of these? Or is it something alltogether new to our reality?

We are close to locating its source, its well within our system—perhaps in the gravity well between the planet and its second moon.  What do we know?  It’s unclear if this energy is modifying and transmuting our physical laws or subsuming them.  The “Viir” seems to fundamentally change both metallic and covalent bonding for molecular and macromolecular structures.  In practice this energy field is distorting chemical interactions and material structures most acutely—its effect on life forms and our planetary biome is under analysis.

…Perhaps most perplexing and disconcerting is that the background level of the field seems to be growing….

…..We are now monitoring two dozen subjects that have exhibited unusual sensitivity to the Viir.  We have yet to isolate the specific epigenetic mechanism that allows for this, but our experiments lead us to believe that the subjects are increasing their sensitivity through time and effort.  It is our belief….

Notes on the “Viir”
Excerpts from Emergency Meeting,
Althan Imperial Science Committee

www.RolemasterBlog.com
Other stuff I've written: https://tinyurl.com/yxrjjmzg
Files Uploaded: https://tinyurl.com/y47cfcrc