Topic: Cretinous spells & spell adders

[Marc R]

I definitely concur there, that is the ideal, but until such an ideal fix is made, you can either keep whacking yourself in the hand with a hammer, or attempt a less ideal fix in the interim.

I find consensus agreement is usually possible. . . .your group may be more anarchic in regards to that sort of thing than in my experience, where our version of that was "Group decision to fix results in a written rule which is official at this table."

Then again, we tended to have 1 GM per game (rotating games with GMs so each GM was lord and master of their game) or if we had 8 players and a rotating GM game, only 3 of the 8 were GMs, so in points like this, the three GMs had a side discussion, resolved it, then laid the rule mod out on the players. I can't recall having it be all that hard to reach consensus among the "just GMs" subset.

[Cormac Doyle]

the only REAL problem here has been the over-use of Spell Adders.

The Core Rules (as referenced above) clearly state only one spell adder per day.

Allowing your PC's to get (and then KEEP) multiple low-level spell adders is FINE; giving them +5 or +6 spell adders is going to cause problems.

In my games, I never had this problem, but then the largest spell adder I gave out was a +2 Spell adder (and the average character level at the end of the campaign was Level 14).

Without excessive numbers of "stacked" spell adders, the mages cannot cast scaled spells in a single round without multiple stacking penalties (5 ranks per round does not even cover the unscaled version of at least half of the spells in CoM or HARP basic; adding scaling increases the penalty directly ... and also increases the number of ranks used for the spell which will increase the number of rounds the spell will take/or increase the casting penalty further).

if a spell caster can routinely toss off spells with more than a -150 penalty, they are going to be very one dimensional. in my games, one dimensional characters are no fun to play ... because their "speciality" will never see more than 10% of the game time ...

[Marc R]

I dunno, allowing a caster 1/day to pop off a super spell on the cheap seems out of line. . .the intent of an RM Adder is to allow a caster 1 extra spell a day, no more or less. . . .this allows that and a side step of casting rules. . . admittedly an RM caster would generally use their adder for 1 high end spell, but even without an abusive build, a HARP adder is giving you much more. . . .like you might easily purchase 15 ranks in a 3pp spell by 4th level, merely for the sake of maxing out bonus to allow more limited, reasonable scaling to be used. . . .but with the adder you fire off a 15pp, -60 version (or fast cast a 15pp -60 version at 0 modification and use the 15 ranks of bonus to get rid of the rushing penalty). . .it's not one extra spell, no more or less, it's a lot more than that.

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi Zus,

Yes I forgot about that line (thats what you get from quick reading..)

We cycle GM's too (I cycle with Pat, Sazen  and others)

So we all agree on spells.

We were discussing this on the weekend and one point we all agree on is that every attack must have a counter.
And that :

Whatever the players are allowed to do, so are the bad guys.

So you need to have a counter to it. The counter is counterspell - effectively cancelling out any hope the player has of casting the spell.

Also if the players want to do nothing but use maxed out magic darts then they will face enemies who have the same spells and abilities.

But then the game becomes nothing but a race to win Initiative and to see who gets the spell off first....


As stated, if your group wants to play by those rules then you all ned to come up with a counter for it, or make a houserule.

With regards to me Initiative and Combat example...
If a single fighter runs at a single mage with no cover then yes the mage is going to fry him with a fireball as fast as he can - Why would he wait?? Fighters on the other hand can fire ranged weapons too, including runed arrows etc to detonate a fireball upon a hit (doesnt need to damage, just hit! LOL!).

My bad. IN my above example I was referring to a fighter approaching a mage in a combat with only 2 rounds to approach the mage. I was refferrng to theway combat is supposed to work and i that case a fighter who popped out fomr behind full hard covr (i.e. he was hiding and then run out), then he COULD get to the mage before the mage had time to cast his singe round spell off!

oH, and yes +1 adders are supposed to be available, and anything else is supposed to be extremely RARE!
(Loot and treasures in Core have +4 adders but I wouldnt use them all them time...)

[Fidoric]

Besides, iirc, early RM spell adders date back to a time when you only had 1, 2 or 3 PP/lvl. Back then, they allowed you to cast one more spell per day, a big reward when you are able to cast 1 or 2 by yourself.
After RM mutation in RMSS and even in HARP, spell casters have definitively much more PP to use each day but spell adders are still around and basically unchanged. Not sure if it is interesting or not.
Anyway, I tend to prefer PP adders in HARP.

[ZuS]

the only REAL problem here has been the over-use of Spell Adders.

I disagree - I think that 2 second almost uninterruptable casting time for some of the most debilitating spells (ex. Force Bands, Elemental Ball), avoidance spells (ex. Invisibility, Long Door) and defensive spells (ex. Deflections) puts mages far ahead of any archer or melee fighter in a actual ranged and melee combat. This is mentioned in the thread. Spell Adders add to the pain by squeezing even more power into those 2 seconds.

The Core Rules (as referenced above) clearly state only one spell adder per day.

Allowing your PC's to get (and then KEEP) multiple low-level spell adders is FINE; giving them +5 or +6 spell adders is going to cause problems.

In my games, I never had this problem, but then the largest spell adder I gave out was a +2 Spell adder (and the average character level at the end of the campaign was Level 14).

At level 13 each of your characters can have a +5 spell adder using the Magestaff spell (College of Magic, page 95). They can have a +4 spell adder and make it not a staff, but say a ring or a focus item weapon or the like.

Without excessive numbers of "stacked" spell adders, the mages cannot cast scaled spells in a single round without multiple stacking penalties (5 ranks per round does not even cover the unscaled version of at least half of the spells in CoM or HARP basic; adding scaling increases the penalty directly ... and also increases the number of ranks used for the spell which will increase the number of rounds the spell will take/or increase the casting penalty further).

I don't understand this at all. First of all, you can't stack Spell Adders. Second of all, a Spell Adder eliminates ALL of the PP cost and penalty from a spell. Third of all, at level 14 you can have close to 195 OB with an attack spell like Magic Dart, if you spec like a proper power gamer. That means easily 10 rounds or 50 ranks taken care of with a -100 to your cast - you can comfortably use one of your 5 Spell Adders and destroy anything in front of you in 1 round.

if a spell caster can routinely toss off spells with more than a -150 penalty, they are going to be very one dimensional. in my games, one dimensional characters are no fun to play ... because their "speciality" will never see more than 10% of the game time ...

At lower levels I agree with you and this is the most valid point you have - I will certainly try to emphasize this in my games, but it's up to the GM to want to create that type of atmosphere.
HOWEVER - at higher levels (10+) this is not an argument. No one at level 14 can do -150 routinely, but -50 to -100 (5 to 10 rounds) is perfectly acceptable, depending on target. At level 14 the max spec in 3 skills that are needed for this is not especially damaging to your char - you can be well-rounded and still deliver nukes dragons will fear. The melee/archer warrior on the other hand should consider buying a magic sphere - he is clearly deficient in the world of Magestaff and 2 second Elemental Balls and Force Bands.

[ZuS]

oH, and yes +1 adders are supposed to be available, and anything else is supposed to be extremely RARE!
(Loot and treasures in Core have +4 adders but I wouldnt use them all them time...)

Magestaff spell (College of Magic, page 95)

[ZuS]

I dunno, allowing a caster 1/day to pop off a super spell on the cheap seems out of line. . .the intent of an RM Adder is to allow a caster 1 extra spell a day, no more or less. . . .this allows that and a side step of casting rules. . . admittedly an RM caster would generally use their adder for 1 high end spell, but even without an abusive build, a HARP adder is giving you much more. . . .like you might easily purchase 15 ranks in a 3pp spell by 4th level, merely for the sake of maxing out bonus to allow more limited, reasonable scaling to be used. . . .but with the adder you fire off a 15pp, -60 version (or fast cast a 15pp -60 version at 0 modification and use the 15 ranks of bonus to get rid of the rushing penalty). . .it's not one extra spell, no more or less, it's a lot more than that.

I agree with you completely. Another move from RM to HARP is the 2 second casting round - spellcasters become a cross between a TMG and the Nightcrawler. Spell Adders just add a touch of mobile artillery.

[bottg]

I don't understand this at all. First of all, you can't stack Spell Adders. Second of all, a Spell Adder eliminates ALL of the PP cost and penalty from a spell. Third of all, at level 14 you can have close to 195 OB with an attack spell like Magic Dart, if you spec like a proper power gamer. That means easily 10 rounds or 50 ranks taken care of with a -100 to your cast - you can comfortably use one of your 5 Spell Adders and destroy anything in front of you in 1 round.

My reading of spell adder from the core book (p52): The character has an item that
allows him to cast any one spell that he knows for no
Power Point cost, once per day. Spells cast using this item
must meet normal casting requirements, meaning that the
character must have enough skill ranks in the spell for the
scaling options he wants to use. The character still gets a
casting modifier due to armor, but does not receive any
spell casting modifiers for scaling the spell up in power.

I read that as no casting penalty for scaling up.  However, there would still be a penalty for speeding up, as that is not a scaling option.  So a level 14 caster can have 45 ranks in a spell, meaning a skill of 95 plus stats, talents etc.
To cast a 45pp spell would be a 9 round cast, and to cast in one round even with an adder would be a -80 penalty.

For the magic darts example, the base cost is 3, so that is a +42pp scale, thus +210 darts.  However, the target also gets his DB.  So the caster above, who may have 130 OB, vs say a 90 DB, has a +40 attack score, modified by the -80 for speed casting.  Thus there is a 40% chance that the spell will fail on the casting roll.  If it does hit, the damage is 22D10, averaging out to 121 points of damage which also adds 24/rnd bleeding.  Nasty.

However, a even a level 10 enemy such as a Wyvern (which actually has a 140DB - 90% chance of spell failing) has 250 hits.  So the darts do half its hits and will require another 5 rounds to bleed to death.  Assuming the spell works.  Even if the caster has eloquence and really good stats plus a focus etc, his maximum OB is likely to be 160-odd.  That is still a 60% chance of a spell fail.  Not great odds.
To counter the bleeding option, use undead or demons.  They don't bleed.  A class IV demon, level 15, has 135DB, 215 hits and dowsn't bleed.  The mage may take out 1 demon, but then again maybe not.

[Pat]

I read that as no casting penalty for scaling up.  However, there would still be a penalty for speeding up, as that is not a scaling option.  So a level 14 caster can have 45 ranks in a spell, meaning a skill of 95 plus stats, talents etc.
To cast a 45pp spell would be a 9 round cast, and to cast in one round even with an adder would be a -80 penalty.

There can't be a penalty for speeding up a spell added spell as you said in your post there is no power point cost for an added spell. If there are no power points used then it must be, at maximum, a 1 round spell.

[bottg]

I read that as no casting penalty for scaling up.  However, there would still be a penalty for speeding up, as that is not a scaling option.  So a level 14 caster can have 45 ranks in a spell, meaning a skill of 95 plus stats, talents etc.
To cast a 45pp spell would be a 9 round cast, and to cast in one round even with an adder would be a -80 penalty.

There can't be a penalty for speeding up a spell added spell as you said in your post there is no power point cost for an added spell. If there are no power points used then it must be, at maximum, a 1 round spell.

I disagree.  It costs the caster no power points, instead costing the adder itself, but it does cost power points. 

[ZuS]

I read that as no casting penalty for scaling up.  However, there would still be a penalty for speeding up, as that is not a scaling option.  So a level 14 caster can have 45 ranks in a spell, meaning a skill of 95 plus stats, talents etc.
To cast a 45pp spell would be a 9 round cast, and to cast in one round even with an adder would be a -80 penalty.

Correct.

For the magic darts example, the base cost is 3, so that is a +42pp scale, thus +210 darts.  However, the target also gets his DB.  So the caster above, who may have 130 OB, vs say a 90 DB, has a +40 attack score, modified by the -80 for speed casting.  Thus there is a 40% chance that the spell will fail on the casting roll.  If it does hit, the damage is 22D10, averaging out to 121 points of damage which also adds 24/rnd bleeding.  Nasty.

Not so much.
Let’s look at the typical power player. The OB if properly specced at level 14 is around 195 (skill+stat+talent+casting style), depending on your main stats. That means that you can do -80 for speed casting and still have 115 OB on the spell. That is a 100% chance that the spell will go through with 42pp scale on a target that has 90 DB.
Got that? 100% chance on a 90DB victim and you can ajust the scale to always have 100% - even on a dragon.

Now let’s look at the damage – it is quadratic:
+8xIncrease Dart Size = 9 hit per dart (24pp)
+9xIncrease Darts = 10D10 darts (18pp)
TOTAL: 10D10*9 – average 55*9=495 damage and 99 bleeding per round. Whoever designed this spell must have meant it as a joke.

Now, if you were shooting at a dragon (165 DB), you would have to make sure you hit it, meaning only 50 points of scale and average damage of maybe 200 and 40 bleed. 2 of those will net you a dragon easy.
 

To counter the bleeding option, use undead or demons.  They don't bleed.  A class IV demon, level 15, has 135DB, 215 hits and dowsn't bleed.  The mage may take out 1 demon, but then again maybe not.

While a good idea sometimes, in general it’s not a solution. I am not about to have all the cities populated by 400 HP Liches.

[ZuS]

There can't be a penalty for speeding up a spell added spell as you said in your post there is no power point cost for an added spell. If there are no power points used then it must be, at maximum, a 1 round spell.

There IS a time penalty due to having to make a spell matrix - casting might be free, but you have to cast the spell regardless and this takes time. 1 round per 5pp - no matter where the PP come from.

Now, for the reason why this is a minor issue for a power gamer, read the post just before this one.

[bottg]

I am still not sure how you can get as high as 195 OB:

45 Ranks:      +95
Stats:          +30 (That is 2 stats of 102 and optimised human bonus)
Eloquence:    +25
Focus:         +5

Still only 155, and that is for a completely optimised character.  Vs a 145DB wyvern, and the -80 penalty it becomes a 75% chance of failing.  Add in the 50' maximum range, and there is a good chance the caster will be taken down before the spell is cast.

[bottg]

Now, for the reason why this is a minor issue for a power gamer, read the post just before this one.

And this is important.  All rules, for every RPG, can be tweaked to make an individual character very powerful in a certain set of circumstances.  The GM, there to provide a balanced challenge, should use counterspells, areas of silence, non-bleeding creatures, hidden assassins etc.   Bring the powergamer down to more normal levels.

[ZuS]

I am still not sure how you can get as high as 195 OB:

45 Ranks:      +95
Stats:          +30 (That is 2 stats of 102 and optimised human bonus)
Eloquence:    +25
Focus:         +5

Still only 155, and that is for a completely optimised character.  Vs a 145DB wyvern, and the -80 penalty it becomes a 75% chance of failing.  Add in the 50' maximum range, and there is a good chance the caster will be taken down before the spell is cast.

Add 45 for focus style (College of Magic page 23) and 10 for skill specialization.

[bottg]

Add 45 for focus style (College of Magic page 23) and 10 for skill specialization.
[/quote]

Focus style doesn't add +45??  Unless you mean Trance style or Song style, with 45 ranks.  However, there is no way that you would be able to fast cast a song style spell and get the bonus.  You would need to sing an 18 second song in 2 seconds.  Trance could be used, but i would disallow all DB for the caster and apply the stunned bonus for anyone trying to hit him.  You cannot do anything else whilst in a trance.

But these are also power gamer optimisations.  Also, to get 3 ranks per level in the spell, 3 ranks per level in the focus skill, and probably 3 ranks per level in PP development, will leave that character with very few other skills.  That can do that one thing well, but nothing else.  And as a GM' you can nullify that one speciality.

[ZuS]

Focus style doesn't add +45??  Unless you mean Trance style or Song style, with 45 ranks.  However, there is no way that you would be able to fast cast a song style spell and get the bonus.  You would need to sing an 18 second song in 2 seconds.  Trance could be used, but i would disallow all DB for the caster and apply the stunned bonus for anyone trying to hit him.  You cannot do anything else whilst in a trance.

Slipping in and out of trance is instantaneous - no need for a "preparation round". You simply role the skill and apply the result: +45 if successful. The only drawback is the added chance to fumble. With spell adder and 1 round cast your trance has no effect on your other actions - you are casting in that round and are dedicated to that action regardless.

But these are also power gamer optimisations.  Also, to get 3 ranks per level in the spell, 3 ranks per level in the focus skill, and probably 3 ranks per level in PP development, will leave that character with very few other skills.  That can do that one thing well, but nothing else.  And as a GM' you can nullify that one speciality.

No, these are HARP rules – at level 14 you are well-rounded regardless of whether you have 3 maxed skills (Magestaff, Magic Darts, Trance). Notice that the damage of Magic Darts is also HARP rules – 500 damage and 100 bleed – “what the f*** is going on here” should be your comment.

[bottg]

Slipping in and out of trance is instantaneous - no need for a "preparation round". You simply role the skill and apply the result: +45 if successful. The only drawback is the added chance to fumble. With spell adder and 1 round cast your trance has no effect on your other actions - you are casting in that round and are dedicated to that action regardless.

No, these are HARP rules – at level 14 you are well-rounded regardless of whether you have 3 maxed skills (Magestaff, Magic Darts, Trance). Notice that the damage of Magic Darts is also HARP rules – 500 damage and 100 bleed – “what the f*** is going on here” should be your comment.

There is no way i would allow a caster to slip in and out of a trance during a round.  Either they are in a trance for the round or they are not.  If they are they get the bonus, and also the penalties, and if they are not, then they get neither.

As for being well rounded, maxing out those three skills plus concussion hits and power points is 15 ranks per level (30DP even if physical is a favoured category).  That leaves at most 10 DP per level. 

As for a WTF, there are many routes to that.  Given half an hour with the books and i could come up with 3 or 4 combinations that would cause a guarenteed TPK.  The players could not complain, as if they are going to powergame, they can hardly complain when the GM does.

[ZuS]

Slipping in and out of trance is instantaneous - no need for a "preparation round". You simply role the skill and apply the result: +45 if successful. The only drawback is the added chance to fumble. With spell adder and 1 round cast your trance has no effect on your other actions - you are casting in that round and are dedicated to that action regardless.

No, these are HARP rules – at level 14 you are well-rounded regardless of whether you have 3 maxed skills (Magestaff, Magic Darts, Trance). Notice that the damage of Magic Darts is also HARP rules – 500 damage and 100 bleed – “what the f*** is going on here” should be your comment.

There is no way i would allow a caster to slip in and out of a trance during a round.  Either they are in a trance for the round or they are not.  If they are they get the bonus, and also the penalties, and if they are not, then they get neither.

As for being well rounded, maxing out those three skills plus concussion hits and power points is 15 ranks per level (30DP even if physical is a favoured category).  That leaves at most 10 DP per level. 

As for a WTF, there are many routes to that.  Given half an hour with the books and i could come up with 3 or 4 combinations that would cause a guarenteed TPK.  The players could not complain, as if they are going to powergame, they can hardly complain when the GM does.

Yes, I know that he is in a trance for that one round, but that is hardly something that's going to hold him back.
No reason to max out PP or Endurance or anything else. Get the first 10 ranks, and you're covered. By the way, our average char has 50-60 dps per level.