Author Topic: Criticals: Why so Random?  (Read 6902 times)

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Offline thrud

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2009, 05:47:18 AM »
Nothing wrong with random enconters. However, most GM's I've played with use the tables as preparation before the actual gaming session. List some encounters beforehand and then insert beast where appropriate.

Offline Ecthelion

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2009, 07:20:39 AM »
Anywho, randomness is less popular now.  Ask GM's if they still use random encounter tables anymore.
Do you have any other sources than the perhaps seldom used random encounter tables as evidence for this claim of randomness being less popular now? Most of the popular RPGs still make AFAIK heavy use of the dice, be it during character creation, combat or elsewhere.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2009, 01:50:48 PM »
Anywho, randomness is less popular now.  Ask GM's if they still use random encounter tables anymore.
Do you have any other sources than the perhaps seldom used random encounter tables as evidence for this claim of randomness being less popular now? Most of the popular RPGs still make AFAIK heavy use of the dice, be it during character creation, combat or elsewhere.

In the early ays, most systems used random stat generation.  Most now use a point system.  Treasure and encounters were determined on random tables, now far less so, with mechanics for monster power levels and treasure ratings and the like.  Certainly any game that uses dice cannot remove all randomness from it, yet my perceptoin remains that current games keep it to a minimum.
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Offline markc

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2009, 02:26:55 PM »
 I can say that I see a reason for random crits as well as damage. What would D&D or RM be without random damage?

 But the random encounter chart can be a pain as I had to create it for the section of my game which meant create all of the possible creature encounters and stats. That can be a lot of work for nothing as it is possible that they do not encounter anything.
 What I do now is design an encounter for an area and then let the PC's roll to avoid it. It requires less work on my part.

 I have been thinking about adding more randomness to my game. If most systems are moving away from this I can say I think it is a good thing I am going to add more.
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Offline jolt

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2009, 03:08:11 PM »
Games are passing on randomness because that's the current trend.  And designers and companies are afraid of going against the current trend for fear of being labeled "old school" or "not modern".  Which leads to the current trend of rulebooks being very heavy on story and fluff, not that there's anything wrong with story and fluff, to (often) conceal that their resolution mechanic is nothing more than a slight variation of one being used in a hundred other games.

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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2009, 05:41:35 AM »
Thrud - you should take a look at Hack-n-Slash for HARP. It is entirely stepped in critical/damage outcome. A single rool determines: if you hit, how much damage, and the crit with any extra damage (hits-wise) & special mods, like bleeding. Pretty-cool. Not exactly sure how easy/hard it would be to adapt to RM....
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Offline thrud

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2009, 07:24:30 AM »
I'm pretty happy with RMC as it is, especially with CC.
Otoh if a copy of Hack-n-Slash happened to fall into my lap I'd probbly look it over out of curiosity.

Offline Vince

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #27 on: June 29, 2009, 06:52:42 AM »
I had tell this in other threads :

We limit the high random chances with the rank skills. So for example:

FighterA with 5 ranks in Longsword and FighterB with 20 ranks in Falchion. They fight one vs one with normal OB, DB and initiative rules, but when they reach the critical, fighterB has to add 15 (diference of rank skill in their weapons) to his critical roll whatever is a A, B, C, D or E. FighterA has to substract 15 because he is less skilles in placing his attack.

With this, you ensure that skilled warriors are more than just OB. Also, this works as a parrying skill, yo you can't substract anything if you aren't aware of attack or outnumbered.

This is because we understand that attacking by surprise without ambush skill, and outnumbering the foe has to be more determinant that rules says.


Playing like that also gives us the satisfaction that you have more probablities to hit someone that is sleeping in a critical zone, because the sleeping one can't substract anything.

We had been playing this way for many time and works great.





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Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2009, 07:59:59 AM »
Another reason companys are moving away from randomness is that the majority of todays gamers want to be a hero now! They do not think it is fun when a "random" encounter slays (or heavily damages) their character, and they are no longer able to "progress" the story. 4e is a prime example of this (do you know how hard it is for a 4e PC to actually die?!). Also, random treasures can end up giving a PC something they shouldn't have! (or things they don't need, etc)
A lot of todays games are focused more on "the story" and the PC's part in it. And since the PC's are the main cast, they shouldn't be taken out by a random encounter that really isn't part of the story...
I think it boils down to what style your group plays in, simulationist or gamist, gritty or "heroic"...
Having said that, I don't mind a bit of randomness in my games.

Of course, all of the above is IMHO.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 08:12:41 AM by Right Wing Wacko »
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2009, 06:18:12 PM »
As it took 4 different groups (the first three killed to a man) to just do the first adventure Keep on the Shadowfell, it is very easy to die in DnD 4e. At least at the lower levels.

But I know hwat you mean about the randomness going away. You can see it in character gen. People don't want to roll dice for attributes anymore, just about every game out there has a point spending method of generating stats. I prefer that method myself and sort of felt odd/bad/not-sure the word, when I usd a deck of cards to generate stats for my Deadlands character.
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Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2009, 09:20:00 PM »
As it took 4 different groups (the first three killed to a man) to just do the first adventure Keep on the Shadowfell, it is very easy to die in DnD 4e. At least at the lower levels.


Check the WotC forums... that adventure was hard for everyone! It was designed that way on purpose.
But, in 4e, short of a TPK, it is hard for a PC to die. There is simply too much healing available...
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Offline providence13

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2009, 11:40:27 PM »
FighterA with 5 ranks in Longsword and FighterB with 20 ranks in Falchion. They fight one vs one with normal OB, DB and initiative rules, but when they reach the critical, fighterB has to add 15 (diference of rank skill in their weapons) to his critical roll whatever is a A, B, C, D or E. FighterA has to substract 15 because he is less skilles in placing his attack.

With this, you ensure that skilled warriors are more than just OB. Also, this works as a parrying skill, yo you can't substract anything if you aren't aware of attack or outnumbered.


Vince, would this work the same with any weapon?
I like it. I'm just wondering if the more skilled has a dagger and the less skilled, a polearm or spear... does it play well? I am confident that someone with a dagger could take the guy with a spear. It could happen. But with these rules, does it happen alot?

Since it only affects crits and not OB/DB, I bet is does balance out.
Can the more skilled also subtract from rolls on crit table?
Every wooden sword trainee and white belt monk can pull a punch, but in RM, you "have to" use Ambush.
I never agreed with that.
It sounds like your system handles that too. 
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Offline Vince

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2009, 12:19:36 PM »
First at all, i am spanish, so maybe my english isn't good enough. I will try my best.

The bonus can be added or susbtracted, so a more skilled warrior could reduce the critical he has recieved. We only admit a maximum of +25 or -25 , but we never arrive so far normally if the foe is not surprised.

Well, we use it with every weapon. We don't feel any difference when engaged in pole arm situation, the example you give in spear and dagger has nothing to do with this rule. Dagger will only achieve A or B Criticals, and spear will achieve D or E if their OB is good enough. After this if the player with dagger is more skilled he will reduce the critical, but after recieving various bigger critical he will be wounded. What this rule does is reduce a bit the random rolls.

we had only changed two things: Projectile and hidden maneuvers.

About hidden maneuvers , ambush becomes really deadly, but let's be serious, if you manage to become near a foe by surprise armed (and knowing how to use the weapon) this guy has a lot of options about recieving a critical crit, and before it was frustating when after a succesful stalking you hit them in his feet.

So, hidden has to be reconsiderated, also invisible spells. We play invisibility as the movie "Predator", so if you move , you can be seen. Also in our games stalking is harder, so a 10th level thief not matter what his roll is will be hard time to be unnoticied by a 2th level guard at full day with anything to hide, regardless his Perception Skill. So Perception Vs Stalk has to be worked out; if you want to stalk someone you will have to do it as dark as possible, justify why you don't make sound, justify why the guard can't see you. Not the usual player saying: "I don't know how, i just have 100 bonus stalking" although the floor is noisy.

This has worked right in our games and is balanced... but now comes the unbalancing thing...HIDE. If you know when and where is going to pass someone you  want to ambush, the ambush becomes really unbalanced. Stalking is hard, but wait for someone for example in a road with trees and HIDE, the victim will suffer a the first round of surprise.  What happens? That bows and crosbows become more funny for players.

In the last years before this rule, players became bored about proyectile weapons, they always put a few ranks in some one, but they feel not very useful because there happens a lot that someone gets to them without time to change to melee. But now, everybody has proyectile, because with bows and hide you can add your skill ranks in bow and the victim don't. So people with 20 ranks, become a +20 to the crits, this make sure that at least the victim will be stunned one round.

But once again, it's true is unbalanced, but is the way people ambush in real world!!!  Anyway we don't allow full ranks in you in a far range. So you can shoot with an OB modification due to far range, but don't have the Crits Rule.

Just a note, animal are considerated nos trained attacks, so they are away from this rule. And this has become a thing, that players are more afraid to fight boars, tigers and animals in general. In fact, it was like before this rule , but now they see this as a more random oppurtunity to get hurt.  


So after this rule : People become more interested in planning attacks and having spells combinated like invisibility, no sound spells, ambush, bows etc. But hey, if the group combine their powers to make one player invisible, silent, good at stalking and  good in a weapon...THEY ARE ROLEPLAYING AS GROUP!!

I am very happy about this House rule, i recommend to everyone.

Please ask any doubts you have, i will love to explain our experiencies and troubles with this House Rule.

PD: Note that the maximun +25 or -25 is for the difference about skill ranks. But we also add the ambush skill to this.  So it will be the ranks with ambush plus the ranks in weapon that could become more that 25.


« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 12:29:53 PM by Vince »

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Offline damilano

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2009, 07:00:44 PM »
A lot of todays games are focused more on "the story" and the PC's part in it. And since the PC's are the main cast, they shouldn't be taken out by a random encounter that really isn't part of the story...
I think it boils down to what style your group plays in, simulationist or gamist, gritty or "heroic"...
Having said that, I don't mind a bit of randomness in my games.

There's been so much discussion of this lately that I fear more is pointless and tired.

And yet, here I go again.

I just want to point out that while "simulation vs. story" constitutes a useful dichotomy for the purpose of discussing this point, it's really more accurate to say that these are not opposites but rather, more like the endpoints of a continuum.  In other words, in general, there is some contrary relationship between these two gameviews (yes, I just coined that word).

However, it is even MORE accurate to say that when "simulation" and "story" are intermeshed in such a way as to provide the most fulfilling gaming experience possible, the GM has done what's expected of him.

IMHO, that "best possible intermeshing" combines reliable plot points with very real danger and the possibility of failures and death.  Though I love story perhaps more than anything else in the game, I recognize that this thing isn't a novel.  There has to be risk.  There have to be costs.  It's no fun for the players otherwise, again, IMHO.

Thanks for reading this blather.
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Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2009, 01:58:17 AM »
IMO roleplaying can't be a "written book", in fact is in the other way, it writes the book based on a story (that is the campaign purpose).

Random encounter is not bad for using in travels, you can encounter bandits in the road, or monster in ruins, not predisposed as it is not possible to know all things players can do in game.

The random critical I think is for add a dramatic point to game, so when somebody receive a good critical, there is much tension in the air. If somebody dislikes it, simply use the HARP core system where the critical is associated with the attack result.

But as I say this is less dramatic as when you know the roll result, you know the damage result directly.

Offline Winterknight

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2009, 09:58:40 AM »
I modify the critical tables for attacks vs players, to convert instant death results for high-end criticals to ones that incapacitate or knock them out, but do not kill them.  Thus, TPK is converted to a TPK-O.  It's just as dramatic, and it gives the players a chance to learn and evolve.

Drama is generally heightened when players fail to achieve a goal, particularly when the fault can be laid at their own feet.  It's significantly motivating, if they're invested. 

One of the easiest ways to do this is simply to use annotated arrows pointing left or up in the critical boxes, so that a devastating critical result is shifted to a critical result that is less deadly.  Keep shifting until you reach a box with no arrow in it.
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Offline damilano

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2009, 10:03:54 AM »
Thus, TPK is converted to a TPK-O.

ROFL!  Laugh point for that.

Interesting, Winter.  I like.  But... if the only way for PCs to die is through massive concussion damage, then do they ever actually... die?  And if not, does this "can't be killed" mentality cause problems with players behaving incautiously from time to time?

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Offline Winterknight

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2009, 10:33:48 AM »
There's death by accident, and then there's death by stupidity.  Modifying the criticals is a tool I use (choice I make) to reduce the chance of pointless death.  Deaths that matter can and do occur.  Or, when the player simply refuses to take the hint.

One early campaign, I used a trio of cursed brothers to herd the players along.  Demon-possessed, virtually unstoppable, these three would show up and ruin lives.  We had a player join the campaign late, and even after I had handed his own rear to him with a couple of smaller encounters, he wouldn't get over his cockiness.  When the three brothers showed up, the rest of the party ran like frightened rabbits out the back window of the inn, and told him to do likewise.  He chose to stay and fight.

He died.  Quickly.

The other party members never even considered going back for him.  But, everyone got a good laugh out of it, including the victim.  His next character was much more pragmatic.
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Offline damilano

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2009, 11:12:15 AM »
What do you mean, you didn't buy the Perception skill?

Offline Dark Schneider

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Re: Criticals: Why so Random?
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2009, 01:58:01 PM »
Quote
reduce the chance of pointless death

I am always searching for methods to evade that, and one very important are fumbles, I have seen deads for fumbles, and it is not much serious, possible but it should be avoidable and not depends only on luck.

Fortunately we have 1 solution in book for weapons, the swashbuckling (is written well?) skill, you roll and if success you evade the fumble.

Now I am searching for spell fumbles, it is not much professional IMO that an archmage dies because of unavoidable result as UMR are, and depends only in luck and not some in your own skills.

And about this point, the spell fumble avoid, it is not an avoid but I think the spell bonus could be used to substract it to the fumble roll, so a good caster can minimize fumbles damage.
For avoid it, an SCSM could be made after a fumble for UMR, with the proper modifiers.

Which one could be better?.