Topic: Quick bolt spells?

[thrud]

Should it be possible to research a quick bolt spell?
Something like Shockbolt* @ Lv7?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I am of the firm opinion that attack spells should never be instantaneous. Single round casting, yes, but never instantaneous.

[Ecthelion]

...and for a Shock Bolt single round casting would be possible at level 8 (for a Magician) even without researching a new spell.

[Temujin]

I am of the firm opinion that attack spells should never be instantaneous. Single round casting, yes, but never instantaneous.

Yet there are precedents, like the Wounding list (although it does have an abysmally small range).

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Yet there are precedents, like the Wounding list (although it does have an abysmally small range).

Never said that there weren't precedents, although the only lists I find in Spell Law with instantaneous attack spells are the Channels and Dark Channels lists.

And to repeat myself -- I (personally) am of the firm opinion that attack spells should never be instantaneous spells.

Other than what was in the core Spell Law, you won't see such appear in any future ICE products.

[thrud]

I'm fairly certain that you will not agree on this but humor me.
My PC's an Archmage with dark temptation as a Flaw (RMC, RoCo I talent/flaw) and he was given the Dark Channels list to lv50.

• All the spells on that list are quick.
• Dark Stunning -> and channels raw powersource (usually a Diety)
• Dark sleep -> as Dark Stunning
• Dark Blinding -> as Dark Stunning

My intention is to research Nether Bolt and add it to the list. (Lesser Nether bolt -> Use shock Bolt table, nether (Disruption) criticals, lv7, quick)
The GM has agreed to this.
Now do I follow the list and go with a high lv quick bolt spell or break the pattern and choose a lower lv regular bolt spell?

There you have it, my devious plan. *insert evil laughter*

I imagine the mentioned spells all look similar to a bolt to any one watching.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

As a GM, I would never allow a Bolt spell to be instantaneous.

[thrud]

Fair enough, it felt kind of odd to me as well and that's why I started the thread.
I guess it'll be the non-quick regular flavour then.

[Moriarty]

Personally I think an instant bolt would add some interesting tactical options for spells users (Magician types mostly). Naturally such a bolt would have to be relatively weak in power, but having to choose between an instant shock bolt, say, and a much slower but potentially much more powerful lightning bolt could be interesting.

Actually now that I think about it, why are there only two possible spell speeds inherent in Spell Law, instant and non-instant (caster level being equal) for all spells in the book? Shouldn't casting speed be a variable parameter, like range, target, and duration is?

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I personally have no problem with spells becoming instantaneously cast after the spelluser has reached a certain level and had stated that a caster can cast his spells as instant ones if he's 21 levels over theirs. I hardly find overpowered to allow a 23rd level spellcaster to cast a 2nd level spell instantly, even if it's a bolt.

[sunwolf]

I had an an Archmage once who also had Dark Temptation and his list was Nether Mastery.  Be very careful with any spells from that list, its a bit over the top.

[fac]

I allow that option with Spell Mastery, but you must do it individually. Something like Melkhart the Warlock has mastered the Water Bolt with lots of ranks in Spell Mastery so he can use it as instantaneous spell.

I use Spell Mastery as a sort of Research, the player puts ranks in spell mastery to achieve a desired effect and when they feel ready I allow them to roll, if they fail, the ranks are lost. It's clear that they tried to improve the casting process but they failed. If they success the bonus can be used to teach another PC or NPC.

[Ecthelion]

I personally have no problem with spells becoming instantaneously cast after the spelluser has reached a certain level and had stated that a caster can cast his spells as instant ones if he's 21 levels over theirs. I hardly find overpowered to allow a 23rd level spellcaster to cast a 2nd level spell instantly, even if it's a bolt.

The problem I see is that, at least in RMSS/RMFRP, instantaneous spell require only 10% activity in a round thus leaving 90% activity for actions like melee attack or parrying. So a high-level spell user could at the same time attack an opponent with bolt spells (where the poor fool has no chance to parry against) and do a full parry against his opponent's attack. And don't expect such high-level spell users to only have 20 OB or so, so that the parry option does not matter. Given such an option as attacking with a bolt and parrying at the same time, many spell users might at later levels start developing a bit of weapon skills and many NPCs I remember from the old ICE books and which were high-level spell users also had decent melee OBs. Personally I would prefer if instantaneous meant a 10% activity for non-attack spells but still 75% activity for attack spells.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

The problem I see is that, at least in RMSS/RMFRP, instantaneous spell require only 10% activity in a round thus leaving 90% activity for actions like melee attack or parrying. So a high-level spell user could at the same time attack an opponent with bolt spells (where the poor fool has no chance to parry against) and do a full parry against his opponent's attack. And don't expect such high-level spell users to only have 20 OB or so, so that the parry option does not matter.

Considering the ultra-high cost of developing weapon skills for a spellcaster, if one makes such a sacrifice (develop a weapon skill to some high level), I don't think it's a problem at all. Also, at high-level, in RM2 at least, the profession level bonus would make the skill bonus of a spellcaster very negligible compared to the skill bonus of a fighting profession (we're talking about 20+ characters here, and that's only to instantly cast a Shock Bolt). Save if the fighting profession is very low-level, but then, what's disturbing about a 20+ spellcaster who sacrificed time and trained in weapon being able to hold his own against someone dozen levels lower?

Given such an option as attacking with a bolt and parrying at the same time, many spell users might at later levels start developing a bit of weapon skills and many NPCs I remember from the old ICE books and which were high-level spell users also had decent melee OBs.

High level spell users. That's the point. What's so shocking that a 20+ level spellcaster is able to cast a mere 2nd level spell in 10% activity?

[Ecthelion]

A 20th level spell caster casting a 2nd level spell at 10% activity is most probably not a problem. But what about a 30th level spell-caster being allowed to cast 10th level spells for 10% activity? That would allow a Lightning Bolt to be fired and still having 90% activity left. The question is where to draw the line. If you only allow spell casters to e.g. cast all the spell of 1/10th of their level (i.e. a 30th level caster could cast 3rd level spells) to be cast as instant spells then at the same time you don't really need such a rule because such low-level spells are of little interest at high levels. If OTOH you somehow allow such spells as a Lightning Bolt to be cast as instant spells then there is the danger that such a rules is making the spell casters too powerful. Remember that spell casters in RM already gain quite an edge over non-spell users at high levels. No need to increase their power any further then.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

If OTOH you somehow allow such spells as a Lightning Bolt to be cast as instant spells then there is the danger that such a rules is making the spell casters too powerful.

I played this rule for ages and it had hardly proven being "too powerful". Heck, a 31st spellcaster is... well, 30! With access to 30th spells (even cast in 3 rounds), casting instantly a 10th level is hardly "too powerful", even if such a spell is a lightning bolt.

Remember that spell casters in RM already gain quite an edge over non-spell users at high levels. No need to increase their power any further then.

Why? Spell casters study the physics of the universe and apply this understanding to cast spells, therefore are only limited by their knowledge and what can possibly be done within the limits of the universe. Non-spell users, OTOH, are limited by their own physical body.
It's similar to how the studying of the laws of the universe resulted in the creation of nuclear weapons. That's a lot more power than whatever a man can physically do all by himself.

[Ecthelion]

I played this rule for ages and it had hardly proven being "too powerful". Heck, a 31st spellcaster is... well, 30! With access to 30th spells (even cast in 3 rounds), casting instantly a 10th level is hardly "too powerful", even if such a spell is a lightning bolt.

OK, good to hear that you have tested the rule and that it works well.

Remember that spell casters in RM already gain quite an edge over non-spell users at high levels. No need to increase their power any further then.

Why? Spell casters study the physics of the universe and apply this understanding to cast spells, therefore are only limited by their knowledge and what can possibly be done within the limits of the universe. Non-spell users, OTOH, are limited by their own physical body.
It's similar to how the studying of the laws of the universe resulted in the creation of nuclear weapons. That's a lot more power than whatever a man can physically do all by himself.

Just for game balance reasons. There were some threads were people complained about spell users getting too powerful at high levels.

[thrud]

Hmm, this is interesting. I thought the thread was pretty much dead and went away on vacation. Now I'm back a couple of days later and there are a bunch of interesting posts. 

Spell attack and Melee. At lv 13 I can cast Absolution as a quick spell.
And at lv 10 I can cast Black Channels I with Londartn's hand as quick. (Foe is sent into coma)
I don't really see a "shockbolt with disruption criticals" upsetting the gamebalance very much at lv 7. 7pps are expensive compared to the regular 2 it cost to cast a vanilla shock bolt. I don't know how your game world works but pp multipliers for the Arcane realm are not very common where I come from.

Otoh, one has to be consistent and allowing me to research a quick low power bolt at low/medium level would make it possible to research a fullblown nether bolt at higher levels. This has to be taken into consideration. But then again... Absolution @ lv 13 and nether bolt (quick) @ lv 16, maybe the effekts on game balance would be insignificant? I've never played at those levels so I have no personal experience?
All I can say is Eissa is going to be busy when I reach lv 13. 

[markc]

thrud,
 Just remember what you can do so can your opponents. I can also say that I or any of my PC's wound not want to be on the receiving end of a shock bolt with disruption crits but on the other hand it might be fun.
MDC
 

[thrud]

LOL 
Don't worry, last gaming session had us running out of Halkitaine as fast as our proverbial legs could carry us. We encountered a villan that pretty much outgunned the entire group and some hilarious dice results managed to strengthen the image.

But yes, it's a valid point you're making and I will always expect the GM to match the party accordingly.

Anywho, back on track.
My original concearn is that all spells on the list are quick. Would it be proper to add a spell that isn't quick? It would alter the list appearence totally...