Topic: Wounds, Penalties, Healing?

[Langthorne]

 

A character has a broken weapon arm (-50).

The arm has been set, bandaged and put into a sling, and will heal (naturally) completely in 4 days.

Can the character just rest his broken arm, or does he require complete rest?

Obviously using the broken arm is possible, but would incur a -50 penalty, and would mean the break does not heal.

Would the arm need to be re-set if it is used before complete recovery?
If it is not re-set, would it mean a permanent -50 injury?
Would you have to roll again for nerve damage in either scenario?

Does the -50 penalty for the broken arm apply to using the other arm (eg OB)?
Does the -50 penalty for the broken arm apply to any other actions not directly involving the broken arm?

What penalty (in addition to -20 for off hand) would a character incur for using his off hand OB when his weapon arm is still incurring a penalty?


Are there any rules that relate specifically to these situations (using a not yet fully healed limb, and effects of an injury to one part of the body on other areas)?


Does anyone have house rules for these and other healing/injury situations?


 

[RandalThor]

A character has a broken weapon arm (-50).

The arm has been set, bandaged and put into a sling, and will heal (naturally) completely in 4 days.

That seems a very short time to me - unless there is magical healing or something else is involved. To fully heal a broken arm takes more like 4 weeks or more.

Can the character just rest his broken arm, or does he require complete rest?

Obviously using the broken arm is possible, but would incur a -50 penalty, and would mean the break does not heal.

Would the arm need to be re-set if it is used before complete recovery? 
If it is not re-set, would it mean a permanent -50 injury?
Would you have to roll again for nerve damage in either scenario?

Does the -50 penalty for the broken arm apply to using the other arm (eg OB)?
Does the -50 penalty for the broken arm apply to any other actions not directly involving the broken arm?

What penalty (in addition to -20 for off hand) would a character incur for using his off hand OB when his weapon arm is still incurring a penalty?


Are there any rules that relate specifically to these situations (using a not yet fully healed limb, and effects of an injury to one part of the body on other areas)?


Does anyone have house rules for these and other healing/injury situations?


 

I would require him/her to not use it in any significant way (holding a mug of ale is not significant in this regard) and if they do, not only do they incur the -50, they have to restart from the beginning for healing purposes. Yes, I would make them take negatives to actions that do not involve the arm to keep from unduly jostling it. The amount of negative depends upon the action involved (anywhere from -10 to -50). And, they could actually worsen the injury and get a worse negative modifier and take even longer to heal if they mess up.

I do not know of any official rules about this stuff and I have not sat down to make my own house rules, but I would just do it in the game as needed.

I have never felt the need to have every rules scenario covered prior to playing - because it is impossible. So, I just do it in game. If it works, cool, if not, then I will try something else. Though, I will not take all night on any one problem, but will then look at it after the game. Just how I do things.

I would just suggest you ask yourself these question and really THINK about it. Then write up a bit of what you are thinking in rules forms and try them out in your next game.

[Arioch]

First: how bad is the fracture?
If the arm is broken and useless, then the -50 should be applied imho to all actions (and use of the arm would be impossible) and you should have look the "severe wounds" column of the healing table (so it would take 10 days to heal the arm, not 4).
If the arm is broken but the penalty of -50 is applied "only" to actions requiring that arm, then I would apply at least half the penalty to actions requiring both arms and no penalty to other actions.
SoHK have more detailed rules on healing and regarding limb fractures says that with a First Aid maneuver you can fix the limb with a splint: if don't have it and you move faster than walk you must roll a d100, if the result is under your penalty taken as a positive number, the penalty increases by -10.

[Langthorne]

Thanks for the responses.

A character has a broken weapon arm (-50).

The arm has been set, bandaged and put into a sling, and will heal (naturally) completely in 4 days.

That seems a very short time to me - unless there is magical healing or something else is involved. To fully heal a broken arm takes more like 4 weeks or more.

First: how bad is the fracture?
If the arm is broken and useless, then the -50 should be applied imho to all actions (and use of the arm would be impossible) and you should have look the "severe wounds" column of the healing table (so it would take 10 days to heal the arm, not 4).

It is a medium bone wound (-50), with a recovery roll of 66+ on Recovery Table T-5.4 (RMSR p130), though I didn't want to make this question too system specific as I suspect these scenarios will be more a GM call than an application of existing rules.

I would require him/her to not use it in any significant way (holding a mug of ale is not significant in this regard) and if they do, not only do they incur the -50, they have to restart from the beginning for healing purposes. Yes, I would make them take negatives to actions that do not involve the arm to keep from unduly jostling it. The amount of negative depends upon the action involved (anywhere from -10 to -50). And, they could actually worsen the injury and get a worse negative modifier and take even longer to heal if they mess up.

So if the broken arm is used, it will go back to -50 (no matter how far along it has recovered), and there would have to be another check for nerve damage?

Assuming a splint has been applied too, are there any activities (that do not involve the broken arm directly) that may not be performed (eg moving at 5x base rate, leaping, landing, combat)?

If the arm is broken but the penalty of -50 is applied "only" to actions requiring that arm, then I would apply at least half the penalty to actions requiring both arms and no penalty to other actions.

The problem is that the rules state that it is a -50 wound, but don't specify the "only" part. It is clear how this will affect the broken arm itself, but not how other actions might be affected.

Would you consider that OB with the off-hand would be affected by the break to the weapon arm? Would you apply half the penalty?

How about walking/running? My feeling is that there would be some penalty, but not the whole -50, maybe not even -25.

I would just suggest you ask yourself these question and really THINK about it. Then write up a bit of what you are thinking in rules forms and try them out in your next game.

I have been thinking about it, but that doesn't mean I won't also want to find out how other players/GMs would deal with the situation.

If, as I suspected, there aren't any existing rules that address these issues, I will naturally put something together for future reference. But I can see that there will always have to be an element of GM's discretion involved, to deal with unforseen circumstances.

At this point all I really want to do is decide on how the injury would affect use of the off-hand, and if it will affect walking/running (and to what extent).

Thanks again for the responses.

[Arioch]

The problem is that the rules state that it is a -50 wound, but don't specify the "only" part. It is clear how this will affect the broken arm itself, but not how other actions might be affected.

Would you consider that OB with the off-hand would be affected by the break to the weapon arm? Would you apply half the penalty?

How about walking/running? My feeling is that there would be some penalty, but not the whole -50, maybe not even -25.

If the crit/whatever caused the fracture stated that it's a-50 wound, then the -50 should be applied to all maneuvers (see, for example, the section "key to the criticals" in A-10 of RMFRP, it explicitly says that a -X means that all character's bonus save RR and DB are decreased by X).

The -50 doesn't come only from the fact of being almost unable to use the arm, but also from the costant pain, loss of balance, and things like that (ever tried to run with broken arm, even if you've a plaster on? it hurts!).

[Langthorne]

So, as I had thought, the rules do not differentiate between the site of the wound and other actions (so we could say all circumstances are covered with the blanket statement that all actions are affected equally - it just happens to make no sense).

The -50 doesn't come only from the fact of being almost unable to use the arm, but also from the costant pain, loss of balance, and things like that (ever tried to run with broken arm, even if you've a plaster on? it hurts!).

Yes it does hurt, but is does not hurt AS MUCH as using the broken arm itself.


     

[vroomfogle]

Actually I thought the official rule with this regard was that the full penalty applied to actions involving that limb and half the penalty applied for all other actions (representing pain).

Now, the trick is to find where I read that...

EDIT - Can't find it, so maybe it was just what we always used as a house rule.

[Langthorne]

Actually I thought the official rule with this regard was that the full penalty applied to actions involving that limb and half the penalty applied for all other actions (representing pain).

Now, the trick is to find where I read that...

EDIT - Can't find it, so maybe it was just what we always used as a house rule.

I am leaning towards that option too as it has the advantage of simplicity/elegance, with a sufficient/reaonable amount of realism.

Though I think it will relate more to physical than mental actions

 

[Arioch]

The -50 doesn't come only from the fact of being almost unable to use the arm, but also from the costant pain, loss of balance, and things like that (ever tried to run with broken arm, even if you've a plaster on? it hurts!).

Yes it does hurt, but is does not hurt AS MUCH as using the broken arm itself.


     

I must agree with you 

OTOH it really seems that by the rules penalties are applied to all actions, with no dinstinction on where the actual wound is...

[Langthorne]

I think your reading of the rules is correct.

It seems we all think the rules are flawed though - was hoping I had missed something that covers the issues in more detail (and realism..."Get Real, Get Rolemaster").

Looks like I'll be adding some new house rules.

[markc]

 I have a house rule in that 1/2 the penalty to all actions while it is healing but if the area is in use then I apply the full penalty.

 As people have said above more detailed rules for healing can be found in SoHK and if you are using RMSS Spell Law in the back of the book.

MDC

[thrud]

Maybe there's another way of looking at it?
-50 broken arm...
Dude... the arm is broken, you can't use it. The -50 is for everything else since it hurts to move.

[Langthorne]

Maybe there's another way of looking at it?
-50 broken arm...
Dude... the arm is broken, you can't use it. The -50 is for everything else since it hurts to move.

If the crit stated "limb is useless" I would agree with you, but it does not (and in the injury descriptions it states that "limb is useless" equates to a -100).

There are different types of 'breaks', some worse than others.

[thrud]

Ah, my bad... should have read the fineprunts.
I guess a fracture could be usable while a break or shatter would not.

[GrumpyOldFart]

Even a green stick fracture though, until set, wrapped and splinted, you can't really use the arm as anything except a club. If you use the arm for leverage *at all*, the only thing you'll get is to turn it from a fracture into a break, right?
I'd say once it's splinted you can use it at a -50. Any action that carries any penalty at all for difficulty, I'd give that same % chance of worsening the break. Maybe half that for an action that doesn't use that arm.

[Dreven1]

To interject a moment about magical healing and our younger players wanting instant gratification...

I have noticed that OTHER large RPG games have been leaning toward a more fluid game play in place of realistic detail.

This is a great example.

In other RPG?s healing (especially magic healing) brings the character back to full health when the ?hit points? reach max.   Some games even go as far as to say once the ?HP?s? are at full even the most severe injury is healed.

I have noticed that Rolemaster healing charts are VERY detailed and more realistic than most? however, IMHO they have slowed down the game play to a crawl in most cases.
After one large encounter, half of the group needed to wait a few months to be back up to 100% health before continuing the adventure.  Now when time is of the essence this is HORRIBLE.

So, I have a house rule that says? no matter what the negative (-50 to arm being broken) or leg busted, or hip fractured, or ligaments torn? if the character gets an herb or magical healing that brings them past the point of 100% health? they are fully healed.

After all, isn?t that what magic is for?  This is not very realistic, but EVERYONE in my group and our second group agrees this is much more fluid game play with more time for exploring!

[Marc R]

I think that's two issues crossed. . .

1) The only ways to eliminate the clutter of healing are to drop the specificity of the crit tables, or use something like the RMX generic magical healing rule.

2) if there were a means to eliminate recovery times short of bouncing up to a 20-50th level true spell. . .nothing like being at -30 for a month, and the only way it goes away is -1 per day, even if you magically heal it. (although, you can gimp the healer, since transferrence seems to be the one way to magically remove recovery period penalties).

I must admit, that the pain and suffering did make it particularly sweet playing the only 30+th level priest I ever got leveled that high. . .after dealing with loads of barely awake post healing patients for years of play. . .
"Hmm, he looks like a large pot roast with splinters of bone sticking out, but he's still alive."
<cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast. . .>
"OK, get your butt back into the fight."
was rather cool.

Depends a lot on what end of the dung-n-beans vs high-fantasy spectrum you're at.

On the topic this started with. . .jarring far from the point of injury hurts in my experience. . .and even with a chemical buffer in place like vicoden or demerol. I recall walking softly for the first few weeks after breaking my nose, because letting my feet slap the ground hurt, especially walking down stairs, where a single hard down step would sent a spike of pain through my skull, then down my spine in a wave, with a lingering feeling of nausea. . .and that was a "Clean" broken nose, with no other injuries.

[markc]

 I think the game can work with both methods. In my game I prefer the players to experience the down time as it makes them much more carefull in the future.

MDC

[Dreven1]

I think the game can work with both methods. In my game I prefer the players to experience the down time as it makes them much more careful in the future.

I did this for many, many years in my older campaigns where I left it up to the players to bide their down time. They did take more care but the content that I prepared would languish... It was very cumbersome compared to the way I do it now.  I think I agree that it?s all according to how you want the mood of the session to go.  I prefer to have quick downtime and more content (I get my ideas from many resources - ShadowWorld, MERP modules, Darksun, Planescape, old Dungeon mags, old Gygax modules, DragonLance novels, Terry Goodkind and the like...) so I have tons of content and very little time to get it all in! 
So, to me less downtime is NOT very realistic, but my players SOOOOOOO prefer this way over the other... and I tend to listen to them! 

[markc]

Deven1,
 Yes I agee that down time is a pain. I try and get around it by letting players have 2 PC's as well as trying to do PC specific stuff over e-mail even if it is out of order with what is going on in the game.

MDC