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Offline Dirz

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Disengagin from melee
« on: June 28, 2008, 02:31:03 AM »
Hi,
yesterday I was playing Role Master Classic with my friends and tried to disengage from combat with an NPC, we looked for disengaging and found it in Arms Law.

It only says that it costs 30% of round to move 10' away from the foe without being struck.

But how we manage the foe?

Let's suppose we have two fighters D (the disengaging one) and A (the attacking one) fighting in melee.

D declares to disengage and flee
A declares an attack

D acts in the short phase (disengage is 30%) and moves 10' away from A
A cancel his action (10%) and declares he will pursue D

Let's suppose they both have a BMR of 50' ... what happens next?

Is charging possible with 90% of round free?
And if it is possible, in the next round, D will act before the charging attack and disengage again?

Will D ever escape or will receive a charge in the back (he is fleeing)?

Help us we are unable to solve this problem.

Thank you

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2008, 08:37:16 AM »
1) The Disengage maneuver requires 30% of Character D's activity and it allows him to move 10'. This is essentially done by tricking the foe through a type of Feint to distract them and draw their attention.

2) Character A, after canceling his action, does NOT have 90% of his activity left. He has used at least as much activity dealing with that Feint as Character D (though this activity is also considered part of attack activity).

This seems to be the point that you forgot to consider. Perhaps we were not clear enough in Arms Law, but when you cancel an action, you don't lose just 10%, you lose whatever percentage has alread elapsed, and THEN you lose an additional 10%.

3) This means that Character A will have used a minimum of 40% activity while Character D has only used 30% (if character D was smart, his next action, would have been to continue moving away at top speed). 70% movement at a Dash is going to give a good lead over 60% movement at a dash. (and max pace may vary due to armor worn).

4) This difference in activity percentages means that Character D can most likely keep ahead of Character A

5) Character D can also plan his run to prevent Character A from being able to make an effective charge.

6) A Charge is done by increasing one's speed to increase the force of their attack. Charges are normally done to foes who are relatively stationary or who are closing. Thinking about the mechanics involved, I wouldn't allow a charge against a fleeing foe, as the movement of the foe would also cancel out the bonus effects of the charge. One character could chase another, and then try to make an attack when they caught them, but not a "Charge".



Offline dutch206

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2008, 08:40:20 AM »
Dirz, you come up with the most intersting questions.
"Cthulhu is the bacon of gaming." -John Kovalic, author of "Dork Tower"

Offline Dirz

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2008, 12:21:35 PM »
Dirz, you come up with the most intersting questions.

 ;D ;D ;D

Thanks Dutch206 ... I just put the questions arising during our gaming sessions ... and my questions would be boring and useless without people like Rasyr ... what can I say ... your help is so essential!!!

Rasyr, your explanation is absolutely clear ... tonight I've my weekly session ... and we'll discuss about it ... surelly we'll have further questions for you ... I hope you will not end up hating me  :'(

Offline Dirz

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 01:21:01 AM »
As I supposed, yesterday night polemics arouse for the rules suggested by Rasyr ... and the main polemic is abouth Charging a fleeing character.

I'll try to explain our point of view.

I personally agree with Rasyr in not giving the bonuses for the charge (as they are generated by a greater impact force, partially vanified by the fleeing character), but not in the proibition of charging a fleeing PC.

I mean, charging is not only important for the bonus/malus on OB and DB, it is also essential to enter a melee state in a round you move!

If I use charging well (and I think I do), I let the PC move and attack in the same round.

If I don't let the attacking PC charge the fleeing one, they will fight a round ... then disengage ... and flee all the time!!!

It seems like a Benny Hill movie ... both running withut ever fighting!

If I let the attacking PC charge, I give him a chance (if he has got enought BMR) to reach again the other character and keep fighting!

I agree in not giving the bonus to OB for charging, rather giving the malus to DB (he's still running and charging!), I would anyhow give him the bonuses for attacking from the back.

What do you think about this?

And let me use this post also for another question:
which is the percentage of a charge? Shall it be 100% of the action or can I consider it a variant of melee fighting (so getting a malus, I can charge for let's say, the 40% of the round and then charge al -40OB)?

Offline Marc R

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2008, 01:53:33 AM »
Some of this might get into a lot of nigldy piggledy. . .you might want to make a rule for rule's sake despite common sense, as it may get a bit overwhelmed.

Simultaneousity vs orderly movement by turn create many conflicts.

And you can move and attack without declaring a charge. . .you just move, then attack. (It implies you are not using the move as part of the attack.) as such you can move up to 50% action and still attack. There is an actual difference between:

"I run up 50% move and throw my momentum and weight into a 50% sword slash on the orc."

vs

"I run up 50% move and stop, making a 50% attack on the orc."

Similar overall appearence, but the first is a charge, while the latter is a move and attack.

Really digging into all this leads to all sorts of "But what if. . ."

Like:

Joe has disengaged, and is running from Sam. . .both a humans, both are moving at the same pace, and Sam is moving to keep up with and chop Joe as he flees. . .there is no relative movement, so it makes no sense to give any charging OB bonus to Sam in terms of overall momentum gained. . . .on the other hand, this will mean that Sam will end up with an OB penalty (-% movement to OB). . .and Sam will get the benefit of a rear attack on Joe, unless Joe is fleeing sideways or backwards from Sam. . . .I wouldn't really call this a "Charge" at all, it's a persuit and attack (i.e. just movement and attacking).

Joe and Sam are running along two parallell walls, 5' apart (Makes me think of many a ninja anime movie), both are moving, and attacking. . .neither is charging, again seems to be just moving and attacking.

Joe disengages and runs from Sam. . .Joe chooses to move 40', Sam chooses to move 50' to blow past sam, and chop him as he passes. . .this might be a charge. . .it's a move-by attack. . .but do you give a bonus? Do you give one based on the 10' difference or the full move. . .tough call.

Joe disengages from Sam and runs . . .Joe chooses to move 40', Sam makes a full move of 100' and chooses to do a ram/tackle on Joe. . .an even tougher call.

In the end, if you need a fixed rule, I suspect just making a single call like Rasyr's is best, in that it avoids needing to make spot choices constantly based on the details. . . .or if you want constant variation on situational variables, then you either need to come up with a slew of house rules or just rule on the fly as you go. . .mostly that depends on your GM style.

I find the end result of the way the mechanics work is that you only get one chance to catch someone fleeing with a melee attack, unless you have a drasticly higher move than them, or you have enough of an endurence advantage to make a long chace until they stop running, or the terrain is such that you can corner them.

Since if you chase them, and make a 50% attack, and miss, they will then pull away from you. . .if you can't close that 50% move gap back up, you never get to make a 2nd attack as you can never pull back into melee range.

That may or may not be realistic, but IMO having a slight bend in the rules in favor of "Run away!" is a good thing, as otherwise a PC in a bad situation is just dead. (Similarly, your NPCs can never run off to bother the party another day.) realistic or not, leaving the rules in favor of making an escape tends to work out in the best interests of the long term story. . . .and if you really want to nail someone fleeing, Missile or EAR them. (Or be mounted/flying when they're on foot)
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Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2008, 06:12:48 AM »
Quote
I agree in not giving the bonus to OB for charging, rather giving the malus to DB (he's still running and charging!), I would anyhow give him the bonuses for attacking from the back.

That is quite reasonable.

Quote
What do you think about this?

And let me use this post also for another question:
which is the percentage of a charge? Shall it be 100% of the action or can I consider it a variant of melee fighting (so getting a malus, I can charge for let's say, the 40% of the round and then charge al -40OB)?

Charge is a 100% activity. The move and attack are considered to be one action. What you are describing here is more of a Move and then an attack as 2 separate actions, which is quite allowed.

Try to not confuse a move and attack (2 actions) with a charge (1 action).

Also, don't forget that a character, if they have a longer weapon than the person who is charging, can do a "Set against charge" type of thing, and if their weapon is longer than that of the charger, they will get to strike first automatically, regardless of initiative due to the simple fact that the pointy end of their weapon reaching the foe before the foe reaches them. And that can really ruin the "charge-run away" type of tactic.

LM suggested a move-by type of attack. I occurred to me that modifiers for such an attack should be based on Pace.... (but also likely limited to only a couple of paces as well). Something to consider for the next EA...  ;D





Offline Dirz

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2008, 05:00:35 AM »
I see ... but what LM suggests is to use move and aattack (2 actions) ... It will not work in a game, I was proposing CHARGE for the reason it allows a PC move 100% of his movement AND make an attack.

Coming back to our heroes (D and A), if they have the same BMR (or almost the same), the fighting results in a disengage and then a flee ... A WILL NEVER GET AN ATTACK ON D.

D will move 10' (disengage) and then 70% of his movement, A will move 60% of his movement (as Rasyr sayd). D will have an obvious advantage on A and this advantage in feet will ALWAYS increase ... if A ever decides to move and attack, everything will be resolved in D having a greater distance from A!

So, next time a magician get struck by a fighter, hoping the mage survives the first shot, he will flee undisturbed (even if the fighter stops, changes melee weapon in a missile one, then charges the missile and fires ... the magician will be miles and miles away.

I'll try to study some possible solution for this and then post it ... stay tuned  ;)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 05:12:40 AM by Dirz »

Offline Marc R

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2008, 05:29:33 PM »
I could be mistaken, but charging 100% and attacking 100% would only seem to be possible if hasted, or mounted. (i.e. horse moves up 100%, rider attacks 100%)

The result of a charge is only really to your benefit if your final approach move is more than the percentage of activity you devoted to moving.

i.e. if you 20% run and 80% attack, and your final approach run is 40', then you get 80% attack (-20), running up to a charge 40' (+40). . .

I could be mistaken, but I don't think a charge allows you to 100% move and 100% attack, at most you could 50% move/charge, and then get a 50% attack off. (The rule and example on page 28 don't explicitly say so, but that's how I assumed it worked.)

I guess the GM could rule that the move and attack of the charge are a combined action for a total of 100% with no reduced activity penalty to the attack and full movement allowed, but that seems a bit iffy to me.
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Offline Dirz

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 02:16:35 PM »
mmmh ... I'm probably wrong ... but I think that a charge is:

you move at least with a RUN pace and strike the enemy in the same round. I thought the charging PC could move 100% at a pace greater than RUN and then strike.

Am I wrong? If so, what percentage can a PC move before charging? Where can I find the rule?

If I'm wrong, ok, so disengaging is an automatic maneuver enabling a PC to move away from combat, no way to pursue the enemy if it is as fast as you. (I think that in this case, I would recover an RM2 skill, thumbling evasion, in order to have a random chance of a bad disengaging maneuver)

Offline Marc R

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 03:01:21 PM »
As I see it, it's not a seperate rule, so much as the basic rules of activity.

You have 100% to devote to a round, a melee attack is at least 50% activity. . .

So the longest (distance) charge you can possibly do is 50% move / 50% attack.

While the smallest (distance) charge you can possibly make is 1% move / 99% attack. (Assuming a: that you were already running at the end of the last round, and b: that your GM allows an action so small as a 1% move)

If you have a 100 OB and are of average height and quickness, before splitting OB to parry:

run charge for 20% move with an 80% attack after a 20' run
100 OB - 20 (80% attack) +20 (run 20')
End result of 100 OB in the attack, and -20 DB

Run 20% move 20', stop and make a non charging 80% attack
100 OB - 20 (80% attack)
End result of 80 OB and no modification to DB

If I'm reading what you were saying right, you were:
Run 100% move, make 100% activity charging attack
100 OB + 50 (max charge)
End result of 150 OB and -50 DB

Essentially, no average sized (no BMR modifier) average Qu (No BMR modifier) character can actually increase their OB over their normal 100% OB unless they go to a pace higher then a run. (The bonus for feet is equal to the penalty in activity % at the "no modifier" level). . .quicker or taller characters milk more and more advantage from the rule, as does moving up to the faster paces. Of course, that's only true as long as you have space to allow for a charge. . .

Still, a character with a 65' BMR, at a run, moves 130, so using the example above, if they ran in next to the average joe:

the 20' charge is now only approx 15% move so:

15% charge 85% attack to run up 20' and attack.
100 - 15 (85% attack) + 20 (20' charge)
total of 105 OB attack, -20 DB

The only limit I see on charging is that you must be at a run pace. . .. . .the minimum distance to charge would be the minimum distance to reach run pace from whatever speed and point you are at.

if a character is already running, turns a corner as the round ends and sees a foe 5' away, declares a charging sword attack on them. . .they are already running, so they don't need to speed up to a run. . .they can charge 5' (Actually 5' is melee range, so they can charge 0' actually. . .)

The circumstances at the end of the last round/start of the new round have a large effect so it's hard to define a minimum distance. . .unless you're asking what the minimum distance to reach run pace from standing still is?

If you disengage, and flee, and it's utterly open terrain, and neither character has a speed or endurence advantage. . .it might come down to MM table rolls.

i.e. even 100% activity devoted to running can result in less than 100% distance on the MM table. . .over time, either the runner will get away, or the killer will get in close enough to attack.

« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 09:09:50 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline markc

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 09:54:48 PM »
House Rule Alert:
 In my game I use a differnt combat system but I think this may help you out. It is based on the number of ranks each opponet has as well as some other factors. If the fleeing opponet has 5 ranks in his weapon and the attacker has 10 ranks basicly the fleeer makes a RR role vs a 5th level attack. If he makes it he is free to move if he does not then the attacker gets some of his OB based on how much activity he has used.
 Note: the attacking OB does not convert over well but you could just do a work around on you own. Such as 1/2 OB put into attack and position bonus of attacking from behind.
Note 2: It gets a little trickey with monsters and I just wing the whole rank thing it for them. As well as some GM discression as some mosters are easier to get away from then others.
End House Rule

Hope that helps
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Offline Dirz

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2008, 01:23:55 PM »
LordMiller explained very well the charge ... I used it in all another way (as you said, I moved 100% and tehn make a 100% attack plus the charging OB bonus).

So, using this charging rule (I guess it is the right way to use it ... I was wrong) disengaging will always succeed, so an house rule like the one from markc could work for me.

Do you have any rule for "speeding up" and "decrease speed" rates? I mean ... a PC can start dashing from a standing position in a heap or he needs to start running for a certain amount of feet, then Fast Run ... end so on up to Dash?

Thanks

Offline Marc R

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2008, 02:03:10 PM »
Again there are a lot of variables in play.

Sprinters, using mounted starting blocks, wearing running sneakers, shorts and a tank top. . .can get from standing still to dash pace in a 10 second round.

Technically speaking, the rules do not establish any limit or rule on how fast you can upgrade speed or pace.

Some common sense is likely required, based on terrain, level of encumberence, what the person is wearing (especially armor).

I think it was Rasyr's rule of thumb on "Moderately Encumbered" (i.e. wearing light armor, carrying weapons and gear.) characters being allowed to go up or down 2 paces per round making sense. . .it isn't 100%, and examples of lightly encumbered and heavily encumbered characters abound (no armor/gear on one end, plate mail wearers on the other) to mess it up. . .it's a decent starting point in terms of making up your own mind if you're OK with not having a single, fixed rule that applies always.
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Offline bbrophy75

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Re: Disengaging from melee
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 07:06:17 PM »

This seems to be the point that you forgot to consider. Perhaps we were not clear enough in Arms Law, but when you cancel an action, you don't lose just 10%, you lose whatever percentage has alread elapsed, and THEN you lose an additional 10%.


Ok, while I understand this thread has been quiet for over 8 months now, I wanted to comment on this point from Rasyr.

I went back and re-read Arms Law, and I can't see where it says this about canceling an action. Moreover, the example given on pp. 34-36 suggests that canceling an action is a 10% loss of activity, period, not 10% + whatever percentage has elapsed. Here is the relevant wording from the example:

"Aurin has cast his spell, and depleted 75% of his activity, leaving him with 25%. The Greater Orc cancels his attack on Athlon, and re-directs it on Aurin. (The mod causes him to loose initiative to Athlon.) The Greater Orc has expended 10% activity in canceling his previous action, and has 90% activity left."

For convenience, here is the rule on canceling an action per RMC Arms Law:

Canceling an Action: There may be times when a player, after declaring their action, may decide that they need to cancel their declared action and declare a different action. There are several guidelines to be followed when canceling actions.
? Actions may only be canceled only during the player?s turn.
? Only actions that have not been resolved may be canceled.
? The character loses 10% of their remaining activity for canceling an action.
? The character may declare a new action, so long as they have enough percentage of activity to complete the new action.

Bob

Offline markc

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2009, 07:12:14 PM »
 I will guess that Rasyr is trying to say that if Aurin has cast his spell and used some of his 25% remaining activity then the amount used is 75%+ [partial used]%+ new action %.
 Sort of like a math equation where everything has to add up to 100%.

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Offline bbrophy75

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Re: Disengaging from melee
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2009, 07:59:02 PM »
Rasyr posted:


2) Character A, after canceling his action, does NOT have 90% of his activity left. He has used at least as much activity dealing with that Feint as Character D (though this activity is also considered part of attack activity).

3) This means that Character A will have used a minimum of 40% activity while Character D has only used 30% (if character D was smart, his next action, would have been to continue moving away at top speed). 70% movement at a Dash is going to give a good lead over 60% movement at a dash. (and max pace may vary due to armor worn).

4) This difference in activity percentages means that Character D can most likely keep ahead of Character A

5) Character D can also plan his run to prevent Character A from being able to make an effective charge.

markc posted


I will guess that Rasyr is trying to say that if Aurin has cast his spell and used some of his 25% remaining activity then the amount used is 75%+ [partial used]%+ new action %.
 Sort of like a math equation where everything has to add up to 100%.

It seems to me that Rasyr is saying that whatever percentage has been used for the round up to that character's turn is also deducted. In the example given, a character withdraws from melee as a 30% action. The other character cancels their attack, and instead declares a movement such that they are adjacent again.

Rasyr's post suggested that the character who canceled their melee attack loses not only 10%, but also an additional 30% because that is how much of the "round" has gone by. This does not seem supported by the rules. Moreover, if we consider the example RMC Arm's Law gives, the Greater Orc should have lost 10% + 75% action according to Rasyr's post, because 75% of the turn was "over with" by the time the Orc canceled his attack.

It seems to me that losing 10% is enough for canceling in action. If we consider the first example again, the Attacker (fighter A as indicated in the first post) will have lost 20% of his action in order to cancel and run 10 feet (assuming 50 BMR). That is a -20 penalty to attack. Furthermore, depending in intiative, the person who is trying to flee maybe able to move before the attack is made (although I would assume if the two combantants are back in melee range, person A would need to cancel their declared move action and instead declare a withdraw from melee again or risk allowing the other combatant to make their attack).

I will of course accept that I am simply misinterpreting Rasyr's post.

Bob

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2009, 10:32:11 PM »
Char A declares an attack on Char B. 100% activity action on the attack.

By the core rules, actions are resolves in 2 steps, at the 50% mark, and then above, but actually actions are resovled in 5% or 10% increments (first) and then in initiative order.

Say CharB uses a short action of some sort (50% activity action to move away as fast as possible). This is resolved at the 50% activity point.

Char A, decides to cancel his swing and give chase. 50% of the round HAS elapsed, so that is gone. Char A loses 10% activity (for a total of 60% activity of the round being gone), leaving him 40% activity in which to act.

Canceling that 100% activity attack does NOT leave him with 90% activity to act, not when half the round has already gone past.


Bob, what you are suggesting isn't going to work well as it can lead to characters waiting to the last second  and then canceling their actions and doing something completely else. For example, a character decided to charge his foe. His foe realizes this, and does a "set against charge" and just before everything resolves, the character realizes that the foe will strike first due to having a longer weapon, and decides to cancel the charge.  The way you are saying it should work, that basically gives a reset on the entire round...

One aspect of the way a round is resolved is that activity percentages DO expire and to pass.

Now is it possible that our examples in Arms Law are not perfect? Oh yeah.... That is one of the reasons for the forums, so questions can be asked and we can clarify things better.  ;D



Offline markc

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 11:07:48 PM »
 Thanks Rasyr, for pointed out what I did not in the RMC Arms Law System.
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Offline thrud

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Re: Disengagin from melee
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2009, 03:56:01 AM »
Let's take another look at this.
What if the attacker chooses "Press and Melee" in the same round that the foe decides to disengage?