Topic: Problematic Spells

[Crypt]

IMO, one of the main issue about spells is that there are too PP cheap.
A lot of them can be cast by a first level spell-user.

I think the PP cost, considering the basic effects of spells, are not balanced enough.

As i said before, look to teleportation spells=> this kind of effect is extremely powerfull, even in a high fantasy setting. Only 4  PP for the basic effect ? That's non sense. (even with the +2 scaling for ignoring obstacles)

I don't have the rule book at hand, i'm at work, but several others spells are concerned. (remind me, what is the PP cost of Invibility ?)

A 4th level spell user (thus with a skill rank limit of 15)  could cast any non-scaled spell ever published for HARP, whatever their basic effect.

Think about that => D&D spells levels are more balanced. Isn't it offending ?

This is a MAJOR issue !
Because of that i'm currently wondering if i keep using HARP for fantasy settings or switch to HERO....


PS: i know, i'm a bit excessive.

PPS: i think Dr_Sage suggestions about Major Healing are wise.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

The base spell costs for HARP spells are broadly similar to the lowest level versions of Rolemaster equivalent spells. The lowest level RM teleport spell is typically Leaving at 4th, which with barrier penetration becomes the 6th-level Long Door. Shock Bolt is available as a 2nd-level spell. Invisibility is 4th. Etc.

It's in the scaling that the spells become more potent and that isn't so easy for low-level HARP (or RM) casters. I don't see your problem

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Crypt]

This is just my opinion but spells like teleportation and invisibility, even non scaled, are tactical killers.

For instance, what about the nicely crafted tiny old school dungeon you' ve just made or the heavy door of the treasure room of any castle compared to an allmighty level 1 mage who knows longdoor and can even scale it to pass obstacle ?

In D&D (even if i really don't like it), such spells, as far as i remember, are beyond the power of a beginner.


PS: i won't use magical doors which prevent teleportation.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

I split these posts off into this topic because I felt that they were veering strongly away from the old topic, and that the conversation was interesting enough to be continued. 

(note: I will make my own post regarding this subject a little later --  have some other things to get done before I can devote the time to make a proper response.)

[Mattiyaho]

 Yes some spells can be tactical nightmares, but there are some balances. One is that DP's are limited. A mage has to chose to either cast a wide range of spells, or concentrate on a few but master them. If a mage has a lot of spells with a lot of ranks he has no skills so his viability role playing is severly limited. Second is that when mages get hit they get hurt since they do not wear armor. Also the thing i love is that if your mage has a spell at high ranks so do NPC's. I thing minuses for scailing and casting time greatly balance the PP's for casting. I have had many mages get killed because they tried for a powerful spell to end combat quick and didn't get it when the base version would have preserved his life but the combat would have been longer. Also be familiar with the ways around the spell like opposing mages would. Invisability only works as long as the target does not attack or cast spells also the base version does not include stuff the mage is wearing, and teleporting blind into an area can be suicide.

[Crypt]

A mage has to chose to either cast a wide range of spells, or concentrate on a few but master them.

A 1 st Lvl character could have a wide range of unbalanced spells, that's true.
This does not compensate cheap and powerfull spells effects.

I thing minuses for scailing and casting time greatly balance the PP's for casting.

The basic range of Longdoor is 100'.
Fairly enough to ruin any exploration scenario.

Invisibility only works as long as the target does not attack or cast spells also the base version does not include stuff the mage is wearing, and teleporting blind into an area can be suicide.

he would only have to wait until 2nd Level to be able to cast the +3 scaled Invisibility.




We can say that HARP's spell casters are munchkins.
Ok, that's a matter of taste BUT =>

How can we explain that Darkness basic cost is 7 ?

I see no reason why such a "simple" effect could cost (almost twice) more than a matter teleport. (A Darkness + Dark Vision could justify such a cost, but not Darkness alone.)

Worse => how do you justify that Darkness cost more than Invisibility ?

And Earthen Transmutation for 100 cubic feet => 14 PP    (isn't it a bug ?)


Darkness is not often usefull and Earthen Transmutation can be emulated by using tools (and a lot of time.)

Teleport is extremely usefull and nothing can emulate it.
(except several billion years of patience or the use of an amazing quantity of energy)

[black flag]

I think that magic and arms are balanced in HARP (not like in D&D at high levels) because:
- spells don't last a very  long time
- spell users have got a poor DB
- with fumbles, magic is very dangerous to use
I' m a master of HARP since 2005 and to me the sessions games are balanced between professions. Spells are hard to cast. 
Don't mind the cost for spells...the very important in RPG is the adventure and the atmosphere of the games with a good interaction between master and players. To me a very good adventure IS VERY IMPORTANT!    

[Mattiyaho]

 I agree the Long door spell is a little nice. Every other system I played teleport is tricky especially when teleporting blind into an unfamiliar area. I reread the spell and remembered that I never liked the scenario of when you teleport into an object you just appear into the nearest free area. At the least I think that the spell does not work and you lose the PP or you teleport into an object. Time to roll up a new chaaracter. The thing about this system is the flexability. If you think that the casting cost is too low make it higher just let the players know your house rules.

[Blakkrall]

I you find them to powerfull, give them a price to pay. Madness, wikness... I found a very intersting system in a novel by Guy Gavriel Kay : a mage is linked by a ritual with another guy who is his source. He needs him to cast spells. Break the link, no more spells...

Crypt, on te revoit quand sur Iceland ? (In english : Crypt, when will we see you again on Iceland ?)

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

The basic range of Longdoor is 100'.
Fairly enough to ruin any exploration scenario.

Sure, you can teleport yourself for 6PPs between A and B. In a dungeon exploration, you don't know where or what B is. You don't know what's also at B or in-between A and B. If you just teleport yourself, you have put your mage into potential and unknown danger. If you can teleport yourself and the rest of your party at the same time (which isn't an option in the base rules anyway), your character isn't a beginner any longer.

Invisibility only works as long as the target does not attack or cast spells also the base version does not include stuff the mage is wearing, and teleporting blind into an area can be suicide.

he would only have to wait until 2nd Level to be able to cast the +3 scaled Invisibility.

And a 2nd-level Rolemaster (RMSS/FRP) character could potentially overcast for Invisibility as well, and a 3rd-level D&D wizard can gain access to Invisibility with a base duration in minutes.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Crypt]

what about :

- the huge cost of Earthen Transmutation ?

- Darkness basic cost 7 vs Invisibility basic cost 4 ? (each has advantages and disadvantages but in my opinion invisibility should be at least as costly as darkness)

And a 2nd-level Rolemaster (RMSS/FRP) character could potentially overcast for Invisibility as well, and a 3rd-level D&D wizard can gain access to Invisibility with a base duration in minutes.

i see no reason to reproduce the same mistakes 



PS: in AD&D1 and C&C , a mage should be Level 9 to be able to cast Teleport.
This is far more reasonnable than the HARP version. (Please note i'm not a D&D advocate.)   (by doing a very simple conversion this would be equivalent to something like 30 PP cost. Obviously you can reply that the scaling options raise the base cost  but the real question is => should such an effect be avalaible at the beginning ? )

In a dungeon exploration, you don't know where or what B is. You don't know what's also at B or in-between A and B. If you just teleport yourself, you have put your mage into potential and unknown danger.

This is related to the environnement, not to the spell effect in itself.
And i would not trap every place just to resist the 1st level teleporting mages.
Such characters can steal any merchant.

This leads to put magic everywhere. I really dislike this. 

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

what about :

- the huge cost of Earthen Transmutation ?

It affects 100 cubic feet of material and it is Permanent. Not rounds per rank, not minutes per rank. Permanent.

- Darkness basic cost 7 vs Invisibility basic cost 4 ? (each has advantages and disadvantages but in my opinion invisibility should be at least as costly as darkness)

Given that anyone who actually wants to keep their clothes and equipment on, needs to scale Invisibility by 3 PPs to 7, then not only is it as costly, but it also starts triggering scaling penalties. That's before disadvantages such as ends early if you hit something or something hits you are taken into account on Invisibility.

And a 2nd-level Rolemaster (RMSS/FRP) character could potentially overcast for Invisibility as well, and a 3rd-level D&D wizard can gain access to Invisibility with a base duration in minutes.

i see no reason to reproduce the same mistakes

You were claiming up-thread that HARP spells are more unbalanced than D&D. I'm merely pointing out that the power difference in categorising spells is fairly minor.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Crypt]

Quote from: Crypt on Today at 03:05:16 pm
what about :

- the huge cost of Earthen Transmutation ?

It affects 100 cubic feet of material and it is Permanent. Not rounds per rank, not minutes per rank. Permanent.

Quote
- Darkness basic cost 7 vs Invisibility basic cost 4 ? (each has advantages and disadvantages but in my opinion invisibility should be at least as costly as darkness)

Given that anyone who actually wants to keep their clothes and equipment on, needs to scale Invisibility by 3 PPs to 7, then not only is it as costly, but it also starts triggering scaling penalties. That's before disadvantages such as ends early if you hit something or something hits you are taken into account on Invisibility.

well, maybe you're right.

but i think i will increase the cost of this spells (invisibility, longdoor, shadowport, etc...)

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

PS: in AD&D1 and C&C , a mage should be Level 9 to be able to cast Teleport.
This is far more reasonnable than the HARP version. (Please note i'm not a D&D advocate.)   (by doing a very simple conversion this would be equivalent to something like 30 PP cost. Obviously you can reply that the scaling options raise the base cost  but the real question is => should such an effect be avalaible at the beginning ? )

The 3.5 Teleport allows the caster to move himself and 3 pals (with their equipment) NINE HUNDRED MILES at 9th level. That's a Teleport spell that takes the whole business of travelling around a world and throws it in the dustbin.

30 PPs to do that in HARP?  base 4 + 2 for barriers + 12 (for 3 extra targets) + 16 (for 10 miles/rank) = 34 PP of which 30 are scaling so that's a whopping -150 penalty. And you've only got 34 ranks so max distance is 340 miles in the event that the spell works.  And your character is 11th level.

Long door isn't Teleport at low levels. It's Leaving. It allows a mage to get a head start on pursuers or transport himself or his pals one at a time across a chasm or a river or whatever.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Crypt]

The 3.5 Teleport allows the caster to move himself and 3 pals (with their equipment) NINE HUNDRED MILES at 9th level. That's a Teleport spell that takes the whole business of travelling around a world and throws it in the dustbin.

30 PPs to do that in HARP?  base 4 + 2 for barriers + 12 (for 3 extra targets) + 16 (for 10 miles/rank) = 34 PP of which 30 are scaling so that's a whopping -150 penalty. And you've only got 34 ranks so max distance is 340 miles in the event that the spell works.  And your character is 11th level.

as i said: "Obviously you can reply that the scaling options raise the base cost  but the real question is => should such an effect be avalaible at the beginning ? (a HARP level 1 character CAN teleport)"

Long door isn't Teleport at low levels. It's Leaving. It allows a mage to get a head start on pursuers or transport himself or his pals one at a time across a chasm or a river or whatever.

lol, ok, but travelling from A to C without crossing B IS teleportation.
You may call a 100' teleportation "minor teleport" or "Leaving", it's still a matter teleportation, whatever the distance.
Longdoor IS Teleport even at low levels.

It seems what you would call "Teleport" is a strategically scaled effect (long distances) but, you should take into account that on a tactical scale even a very short range teleportation is a very powerfull effect.

It doesn't fit in every settings. If you consider heroic fantasy litterature this kind of power is pretty rare amongst newbie mages (except by the use of magical items.)


I think my longdoor will be at least a 15 PP base cost spell.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Off-topic: Could you please stop editing your posts hours after you've made them? It makes it difficult for people to know what they are replying to and twice now I've had the experience of starting a reply quoting one of your posts and discovering half-way through that there is new content in the quoted material that I have not seen.

Yes, Long Door is technically Teleport on a very small scale. But tactically it's not that big a deal. Moving a 100' by HARP Long Door is a full-round action, so you can't Long Door around a battlefield and strike someone in the same round. You can send someone else to do that but then you can't get them back if you've put them in harm's way.

As to whether it should be available at 1st-level, I don't have a problem with that. For your world, you have to decide whether magic is common or not. If it's common, then there will be magical safeguards against thieving mages where warranted, because just as there'll be mages with criminal leanings, there'll be mages who believe in obeying and enforcing the laws. If it's rare, then mages will either have better things to do than pilfering petty shopkeepers or society will distrust magic users and strange happenings will be deemed witchcraft and evil and there'll be persecutions against people merely suspected of being magic users.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Crypt]

Could you please stop editing your posts hours after you've made them?

sorry 

[choc]

First of all: it is VERY very risky to use Long Door!

LOS & very good known location: 5% chance of missing -> have you ever stucked in the floor or a table or a locker or ....

no LOS and partically known location (ie memorized rest area, memorized landmark for more than 4 hrs) -> 25% chance to miss

no LOS an no known location, but already seen before -> 40%+ chance of missing

no LOS and never seen before -> GM description

these are our houserules for the caster. The casters mates have a higher chance of missing or even they forget concentrating.

And don't forget: deviation increases with distance of Long Door

[janpmueller]

Just skimmed all the messages, but I think I missed one important point:

I actually like it when level 1 character's are able to really DO something. This is because I don't play to get anywhere, first grinding through boring, mono-solution adventures to finally achieve something - I play for the fun, and being able to do something IS fun.
I've never player D&D, but maybe the difference between level 1 and level 10 is just bigger. In Harp, you flesh out your character, specialize, know some spells or skills even better than before, but you get the overall character concept through at the very beginning.

No need to work for it. Personally, I think it's a good thing. There are enough things in life you have to work hard for, playing games shouldn't be one of those (BTW, that's what I HATE about the online MMORPGs. You SO suck at the beginning).

[Dr_Sage]

PPS: i think Dr_Sage suggestions about Major Healing are wise.

Thanks !

Dear Crypt,

I do believe taht you have some good points specially regarding Earthen Transmutations. I agree that some spells are way too expensive compared to others. Probably darkness is a good example as well.

But its the way HARP works. A 1st level spelll is supposed to be good. I compare HARP Spell Systen with a X-Men like system. Every caster usually is good at half dozen spells and thats it.

Wanna see balance havoc?

Air Form: A 3th level caster can:

1) Be imune to most ordinary attacks;
2) Be imune to most "Indiana Jones" style traps;
3) Levitate;
4) Pass trough doors, keyholes etc.
5) Yes, he cas cast spells.

This guy can explore the "Goblin Lair" all by him self. 

But how to deal with this without messing way too much with the rules?

Sage House Rule (unofficial):

"I do require prerequesites for some spells, usually other spells or at least a minimun level."

This is done to avoid making arms-race with the players. I hope that helps you.

PS: I particulary don?t think Long Door is unbalanced. If we look at  DnD, you must compare to "Dimension Door" not "Teleport". 

PPS: janpmueller has a point. We suck in MMORPGs at lv 1, and usually become Gods ate max level.