Topic: Do you think that D&D 4th Edition will be a good thing for H.A.R.P.?

[Zhaleskra]

There are other virtual tabletops out there that I'd like to try, and the only reason I can't is that neither of my computers have all of the system requirements.

Really? Can you point me some directions? The only one I have tested is OpenRPG, but is was kinda bugged badly. Check this, we must admit it is impressive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m20AJvdzAdo

I've tried OpenRPG too and in addition to not liking programs that you have to download other programs to run, I found it quite difficult to make even a fill-in sheet that looked good and didn't crash the program let alone a calculated one.

RPGnow has a couple that interest me:
Fantasy Grounds: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=16718&it=1

ScreenMonkey: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=16718&it=1

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

http://d20.jonnydigital.com/

This guys seems to know what he is talking about (scroll down August 18th entry)

[Dr_Sage]

"The gametable software will use a true 3D engine and in all likelihood will be able to offer the full range of D&D miniatures, although whether the miniatures will have an additional cost remains to be annouced"

Scarry.

[mocking bird]

Very informative article.
I do wonder thought about players seeing the changes as improvements or irritations making 3.5 conversions problematic, or the extreme skeptic seeing changes made just for that reason.  Pervect.

[Thos]

I'm sure that the D&D fans will likely stay with D&D because of the name alone if nothing else. I'll happily stick with HARP. There may not be ten million source books coming out this year, but at least I know that the books that ICE releases are worth buying.

[Zhaleskra]

I'm sure that the D&D fans will likely stay with D&D because of the name alone if nothing else. I'll happily stick with HARP. There may not be ten million source books coming out this year, but at least I know that the books that ICE releases are worth buying.

Part of the reason I'm giving up on D&D is because I feel that name recognition is the only thing it has going for it.

[Defendi]

BTW, I take back what I said about the game not being previewed in Saga.

[Hawkwind]

I agree with mocking bird - there should have been a no effect option in the poll, because I don't believe there will be much effect.

There has been a huge amount of online response to the whole 4e thing, mostly negative, some positive, but pretty much all coming from the heat of the moment. I think things will calm down and there will be a lor more reasoned discussion as the days go by.

The RPG community (particularly online) does have a bit of a tendency to be Chicken Little whenever there is a major change announced. When White Wolf shut down World of Darkness and relaunched it, there were many proclaiming the end of roleplaying. Same as when 3.5 was announced, same as now.

Certainly there is a move with what has been announced towards more online resources, but pretty much the whole world is moving towards more online resources. I believe it will be quite possible to play 4e with out any online resources if you want to. I've been quite happy running a 3.5 campaign for about 4 years now just using the 3 core books, and none of the players have hassled me about bringing in any expansions.

And, from having looked at Star Wars and the Book of Nine Swords, I don't really believe that its going to be that big an effort to convert 4e stuff back to 3.5 or vice-versa, just like it wasn't that big a deal converting between AD&D 1 & 2.

Hawk

[SamwiseSeven]

Yeah, I guess I should have included a no effect option.  Whoops.

Just wanted to see what you guys thought.  Thanks.

[Tommi]

About virtual gaming boards:

RPGnow has a couple that interest me:
Fantasy Grounds: http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=16718&it=1

I talked to one of FG boys today (FG is made by tiny Finnish company). Their product has been  build so that most (all?) different systems may be played with the software. All depends on how much you are wiling to use the scripting language to adapt to new system. I know that as they play in my RM and HARP groups (one was my first RM GM).  They would like to include addons of other systems than D&D to the software . Copyright etc are main reasons that it currently has only D&D inbuild. My suggestion to them has been that they should contact gaming companies and made deals to make addons to each companys webpage from where the suitable addon could be loaded for free or for small charge.

I suggest that all prefer FG because of their ICE sympathies. 

[Zhaleskra]

I've tried the trial version of ScreenMonkey and I feel it's pathetic. Fantasy Grounds would be the one I'd go with.

As a dabbler in character management software, there is always some learning curve in adding new data. With the d20-specific Role Playing Master, I already knew some C++ so it wasn't so hard. Metacreator has its own language, which has some similarities to C++ but is otherwise hard for me to figure out. And the help file doesn't.

[Mando]

MapTool ( http://rptools.net/doku.php?id=maptool:intro ) is the online RPGing software I've chosen, because it does well what I need:

• Display a map with tokens, line of sight, light radius, hex grid, limited movement if needed, display of extra images when you need it.
• Provide easy to use chat tools: it's chat tools are ok and let you play without relying on external tools, like irc. You can use Skype if you prefer to talk.
• Provide simple dice tools: MapTools dice are perfect.
• No rules scripting: MapTolls doesn't handle rules per se, and that's fine as I prefer to handle this on my side, scripting is too complex and never works the way you want it to work while GMing.

Maps, chat & dice, all very well done, is well enough for my games.



Back to the topic: getting some nice HARP products out before half-2008 could be a nice way to let people remember HARP is still alive and a good alternative. This will be a time when people will have to make the final choice to switch or not, after having bought 4th Ed PHB and DMG.

Alternatives like Castles & Crusades seem to start recruiting converts already.

[allenrmaher]

I am watching Maptool develop with interest, it has come a long way and Mando is right it does a lot for no cost.  Another low cost one with better character tracking but worse map features is OpenRPG+.  I think both of these are perfectly functional and best of all free.

Maptool is most similar to Battlegrounds for the commercial ones.  Both have maps and chat but don't record character info.   If you want maps tokens and chat with less overhead then these are good programs.

OpenRPG+ is most like FG or kLoOge which base things off of a character sheet.  FG is a good product with a very nice interface, and with some customization could be very fun for use with HARP.  At about the same price or a little cheaper is kLoOge Werks which is what I have been using for HARP for some time.

kLoOge  has full customization for HARP, several HARP GM's got together and customized the heck out of it.  We built custom character sheets, stock monsters, macros and utilities (like treasure generators) and even shared some adventures.  Most recently I upgraded the HARP character sheet to export directly to kLoOge XML so you can generate characters and NPCs and export them to kLoOge with minimal work.
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item565

The kLoOge HARP version (yes there is an SF version in testing if anyone wants a copy) tracks time in harp format with calendars for Cyradon, EoH and Shadow world.  It tracks initiative according to HARP rules.  It tracks hits, stuns, bleeding, etc.. and it will automatically adjust rolls based on the range of the weapon.  There are custom buttons for applying criticals to tokens in ML like shorthand... plus a round maintenance button that adjusts hits for bleeding each round... and makes sure that stun rounds are calculated properly.  This makes our online combat faster than I can manage FtF plus no bookkeeping on my part.

Of course there are other customizations and features that we came up with... The nice thing about kLoOge is it's adaptability to non d20 systems... heck I even play tested the battle master min rules with  my group using this way back when to give Tim some feedback.  A basic definition file is in downloads, and I can share some stock monsters and what not that we have  come up with to anyone who is interested.
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item487
http://24.72.114.123/dgt/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=14&Itemid=28

To the main topic...  Ah... I am waiting to spend a bunch of money on HARP print materials starting with a SF hardcover.  And I have no intention of going to 4e... I prefer the BFRP/Rules Cyclopedia versions to current or future ones... the feat character build of modern ones is a nightmare that keeps getting worse.

[twistedoliver]

Hello All,

I think that 4e will be good for the gaming community as a whole, just like Harp is good as a whole.  I think that all things evolve and change.  Everybody is different.  I know people who love MERP/ RoleMAster and others who hate it.  The same for D&D.  I like a lot of 3e/3.5e but there is a lot a do not like.  The same goes for HARP.  So I play both.  I lot of forums on a lot of different sites seem to indicate that you have to be in one camp or the other.  Why not both?  Most roleplayers have tried multiple systems.  I have played too many to count.  The times I had the most fun had nothing to do with the system itself but with who I played with!  That has always been the factor in my games.  The system was always second.

I think that your picks for your vote are biased.  I vote yes, but not for the reason on the vote. 

Anyway, I think HARP is a great system, but I have yet to get my club to try it yet.  I will and when I do, I think that I can get a game going with this system.  The magic system in HARP is beautiful, and I love it.  I really hope to get a chance to play it soon...

[Thos]

I agree that the system matters little so long as you have a fantastic GM and good roleplayers.

[black flag]

Hi to all Folks
HARP is better than D&D, to me and for my old pals gamers; after all these years it's hard to play great games and HARP is a great RPG.
To me the 4 th ed is another thing to give money for WoC, like 3.5 ed. All books will be obsolete, and I think that D&D now, is far from real spirit of RPG (we play roles and not only battles situation).
This new ed will be too close to miniatures, a bad thing...
Maybe, the rules are too old, but I prefer AD&D 1, and D&D basic (1-36 lvl+ immortals rules set) that a facsimile of heroquest 

[Witchking20k]

The Players make the game, not the rules.

[Dr_Sage]

(we play roles and not only battles situation).

We can see this is almost any forum,and specially the Wizards. Somethimes people simple forget RPG is beiond straightfroward combat.

This new ed will be too close to miniatures, a bad thing...

In fact 3.5 was already impossible to play without the Battlematt and some sort of miniatures. We used to play AD&D 2ed using only imagination without any adds. Less precision, way more imagination.

The Players make the game, not the rules.

I respectfully disagree with that. The rules (even the DM house ones) defines the reality the PCs live in. One simple example is the presence or the absence of the possibility of "one-shot kills", or if a street punk can kill a 20th level fighter.

Its just a couple of examples. As a matter of fact I compare the RPG rules with real life physis: is troughout then we interact with the Universe.  

[black flag]

Hi DR-Sage
For your point of view about rules I'm agree with You: in RPG rules defines reality: in D&D a powerful PC can kill (You name it): the Devil, the Prince of demons, Thor, or Zeus...In CoC an investigator go mad and flee from Azathot (no luck...). In HARP, a fantasy RPG, You can be powerful but more limitated than D&D: a good compromise that I like. I can write stories with meetings with other races (in my setting orcs, gobs are not evil, just barbaric in cultures with crudes visions of life...) not only kill them, meetings faeries, or ghost. In D&D the PC evolves with battle situations; characters class (like fighters) are too limitated with their skills, spell casters are too powerful without dangers with the casting of spells...
D&D 3.5 (I've got good rememberance from the older versions) is so boring...always the same class for play (try a game without: fighter, rogue, mage and cleric...impossible). HARP give me "un grand bol d'air"    

[Zhaleskra]

I agree that 3.5 did make many things more mechanical and at the same time it cleaned up a lot of bloat (while creating more). Blaming a system for something that's the game master's fault is not fair.