Topic: Identifying items with special magical abilities

[Jengada]

One of the characters in my campaign picked up a magic item. The magic is a (Channeling) spell that was researched by a secretive sect, and generally unknown to others. I'm trying to figure out what can be learned with the various spells and skills - an area I always feel RM2 makes way too complex.

• A Staves/Wands roll, blind, may allow attunement. Does the player have to then use the power to understand just what it does?
• Detect [Realm] only shows that it is or is not enchanted with [Realm] magic. Or do others allow it to identify the exact spell? (In which case, why have Perceive Power and Detect Spell at higher levels?)
• Dark or Light Lore? Does knowing "the nature" give details or just say something like "enhances your defenses"?
• Item Analysis, Detect Spell both run into the issue that the spell being detected is unknown to others. Does this reveal it?
• Force Analysis? While I am a bit amused at the idea they have to ask a demon what the item does, that seems an extreme step, and limited to an evil magician.

In general, I'm curious how much information other DMs dole out for the various detection spells. It might help if you note whether your campaign is high- or low-magic. (Mine's pretty low magic.)
Jengada

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

The most obvious spell list is the Mentalism "Delving" and its level 13 Item lore ("Gives major abilities and powers of an item.") and level 19 Item analysis ("Gives a complete rundown on an item's construction, powers, and purpose.")

[Spectre771]

This is a topic of interest to me too. I'd like to know what methods are used and how much info is given. 

We've handled it two ways.  1) the user needs a successful attunement roll to use the item 2) bring it to a person in a city or to a mage's guild and pay a fee to have it identified.

[Jengada]

The most obvious spell list is the Mentalism "Delving" and its level 13 Item lore ("Gives major abilities and powers of an item.") and level 19 Item analysis ("Gives a complete rundown on an item's construction, powers, and purpose.")

I had missed Item Analysis, thanks. It's interesting that these spells are in Mentalism, not Essence, where Alchemists are found.

[Hurin]

Might that be a holdover from the days when Bards (the identifiers par excellence) were Mentalism?

[Jengada]

Might that be a holdover from the days when Bards (the identifiers par excellence) were Mentalism?

Quite likely. I've moved Bards to Essence (plus my orcish battle-bard channelers) but I didn't look at the Delving list to see if it should be moved/replaced/copied as Essence. It seems perfectly suited to being Essence, even with the "Past Visions" if you tie those to an inanimate object. (Maybe even animate?)

Generally, when my players find items, they pay someone to get the realm IDed. Then either (a) the person who IDed it, who generally has very high S&W skill, attunes and tells them what abilities they found/attuned to, or (b) a bard does "Item Analysis #" and tells them what they found. Having Delving available to a magician would really expand the availability of magic item identification.

[Hurin]

I think the general consensus was that RM2 made a mistake, and that people prefer their Bards to be Essence (and their Monks to be Mentalism). I believe that one of the companions even suggested switching them, and I am happy to see that RMu is finally making this switch in the core rules.

I have always found RM attunement rules a little cumbersome, so I often just give items intelligence so that the players can use them right away. I guess I should probably reserve that role for the Bard, though, and require players to wait till they get back to town and pay some coin before they can figure out what that magical dagger does.

[jdale]

RMSS perspective but I think the spells are basically the same. I'll give wording so you can compare.

Attunement: if successful, the player learns one of the powers and is capable of using it. Attunement is easier if you already know what the item does, etc.

Detect Power: just a yes/no answer. Is it magical?

Detect [Realm]: I would only have this detect something if the item is active. If it has the capability to cast a spell but is not doing so currently, it finds nothing. "Detects any active spell or item".

Light Lore: "Caster can ascertain the origin point and nature of any 1 'holy item' that is not 'of darkness' or 'of evil'; will not give specific capabilities." So, this will not reveal the powers but I would have it reveal the religion the item is tied to and give a general sense of where it came from (e.g. "a temple of ___ probably in a desert region"). If the character is familiar with the faith or region (if in doubt, lore check), they could identify the specific temple/location.

Detect Spell: "As Detect Mentalism, except detects any spells that have ever been cast in the area examined. The caster will know the spell type and the list it was cast from." I would say that detects what spells the item has been used to cast (alternately, what spells were used to create it, but I would be unlikely to go that way). I would give a general idea of the function of the spell if it was unfamiliar, and likewise the function of the spell list (but not details of what other spells are on the list etc).

Item Analysis: "Gives a complete rundown on an item's construction, powers, and purpose (may be modified if an item is extremely powerful)." In general I would say yes, it will reveal the powers even of a hitherto-unknown spell. Except it will be vague for sufficiently powerful artifacts.

Force Analysis: I'd treat this as the demon attempting to attune the item, so if successful it would know the details of the powers (at least some of them) but not necessarily the origins or other background of the item. There might be a danger if the item's power gives the demon the power to escape its bindings/control.....

[Spectre771]

I think the general consensus was that RM2 made a mistake, and that people prefer their Bards to be Essence (and their Monks to be Mentalism).

Not for our group.  We didn't understand the need to change the realms. 

Monks/Martial Artists are masters of focusing internal energy, external energy, your opponent's energy, chi, becoming one with nature, imitating animals and other natural elements (Mountains, water, rivers.)  Essence makes perfect sense.

Musical influence is auditory and what the brain perceives and what the individual enjoys.  Mentalism was a perfect fit in that sense.

[Hurin]

I think the general consensus was that RM2 made a mistake, and that people prefer their Bards to be Essence (and their Monks to be Mentalism).

Not for our group. 

Well, I stand corrected then; I should be more careful. I would note though that in D&D, Bards are (now, mostly) Arcane (the equivalent of RM Essence), while Monks are Psionic (the equivalent of RM Mentalism). So it's not just me 

[Jengada]

I think the general consensus was that RM2 made a mistake, and that people prefer their Bards to be Essence (and their Monks to be Mentalism).

Not for our group. 

Well, I stand corrected then; I should be more careful. I would note though that in D&D, Bards are (now, mostly) Arcane (the equivalent of RM Essence), while Monks are Psionic (the equivalent of RM Mentalism). So it's not just me 

Total digression but obviously the Rolemaster way to address this is to create a new concept - a hybrid semispelluser (HSSU), a Monk who uses Essence+Mentalism and a Bard who uses the same two realms. Now we just have to come up with HSSUs for E+C and M+C. Because this is an obvious gap in the profession-type x realm matrix.

[Hurin]

Funny you say that. I was intending on making a Witcher class for RMU, based on the novels, videogame, and now tv series. I thought he would work best as a hybrid semi of Essence and Mentalism.

[jdale]

RMSS's Martial Arts Companion has distinct essence and mentalism versions of the monk (taoist vs zen) which give a nice separation. And Cory followed up with a channeling version which is in the Guild Companion: http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/1999/mar/chanmonk.html

Bards may merit a similar treatment. I see the essence bard as having some illusion and some music based enchantment, while the mentalism bard might be better at the lore; their enchantment is limited to a single subject but might be stronger for it.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

Total digression but obviously the Rolemaster way to address this is to create a new concept - a hybrid semispelluser (HSSU), ...

It's not a new concept: the Macabre of the RoCo. III is a hybrid semi-spell user of Essence and Channeling.

I think the real way is to separate realms of magic and professions, so that both are totally independent.

[Hurin]

It's not a new concept: the Macabre of the RoCo. III is a hybrid semi-spell user of Essence and Channeling.

Good point! I had not realized that.

There is some interesting text in the class description of the Macabre, explaining that Hybrid Semis work the same as normal semis, just that they can't learn closed lists. I think we probably don't need that last stipulation anymore for RMu, since RMu has a system for dealing with that: the rules for making professions will mean that the Hybrid semis will need to use some of its aptitude points to buy the extra realm of spellcasting, and that its cost for closed lists could be raised to compensate.

The Macabre's class description also notes that they should have a 'strange background' and are usually NPCs. I would say you probably don't need that stipulation either.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

The Macabre's class description also notes that they should have a 'strange background' and are usually NPCs.  I would say you probably don't need that stipulation either.

Well, it's more tied to the fact that Macabres are inherently "evil" and more suited for lonely characters so they wouldn't fit most PC party than the fact they're hybrid semi-spell users... Thing was that it wasn't a new concept and that rules to manage such hybrid semi-spell users exist.

[Hurin]

Thing was that it wasn't a new concept and that rules to manage such hybrid semi-spell users exist.

Yes, point taken.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

That being said, the only hybrid semi is E+C, so there's leeway for a hybrid semi E+M and for one C+M.

[Ynglaur]

...and don't forget Arcane! 

[Dunadan]

I know that I'm slightly off topic here, but how much do you generally charge for a NPC to cast a spell?

In the case referenced above (Delving L10 Essence spell), what would you charge the players? Obviously, it will change based on reaction to the players... but is there some baseline to work from?

Tx