Author Topic: Tiers of Play  (Read 2434 times)

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Offline rafmeister

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Tiers of Play
« on: September 18, 2018, 01:38:36 PM »
     I only read a post by Lorgalis on "Ghost Levels" recently. See this thread for details. http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=18707.0  That thread got me to thinking, and rather than hijack his thread, I started a new one here.

     Tiers of Levels comes directly from D&D. WotC has done a fairly good job at introducing new players to their games. Tiers of Play explores how characters fit into their world. it also helps novice GMs plan out general sorts of adventures for groups of a certain power level. In the generic D&D system, levels 1-4 are called Local Heroes. Levels 5-10 are Heroes of the Realm. Characters from levels 11-17 have their own grouping, as do level 18-20. Their current rules cap out at level 20 (for 5th edition). In short, even their first level characters are slightly more powerful than average townsfolk.

     I feel Rolemaster characters start at a lower base and rise to a higher potential. In short, there are more tiers of play. The following contains my opinions on how characters (player or npc) fit into my world. Feel free to provide your views.

     First and second level characters start as the 16 year old youngbloods, eager to prove themselves. I think of the first few levels as Coming of Age. I like to have low level characters explore their surroundings and build on their backstory. For a NARRATIVE story, this lets the players develop their characters personality. Think of the opening part of Kingdom Come Deliverence. The main character (Henry) starts as an apprentice blacksmith. Henry has to complete some simple quests to help his father craft a sword. For the computer game, this is the tutorial. It also works as a first level adventure where the character meets with his friends, does some errands, and explores the village. Assigning about 5000 experience to that sort of session lets the GM explore four characters backgrounds early on, plant seeds for further stories, and quickly advances the characters to Third level. Many of these missions should be assigned by a mentor/master/teacher.

     I place most townsfolk around Third Level (usually no profession, craftsman, or layman). The town guardsmen are probably 3rd level fighters. Veteran soldiers or Sargeants would be fourth level. Once characters reach third level, they have proven themselves to their neighborhood. Drive and ambition may separate the PCs from the rest of the village, but they have not yet established themselves as heroes. Instead, Player Characters are Journeymen. No longer do parents/masters/trainers assign various quests, the players should dig for them. This should mean leaving the safe confines of their home neighborhood, and visiting nearby towns or villages. I suggest keeping to a pace of around 5000 xp per session, letting players reach Fifth Level level four sessions after advancing to Third.

    Some campaigns start players at third level, but many times a GM wants to start his party at Fifth Level. I consider 5th, 6th, and 7th level characters to be the sweet spot. I consider the PCs at this level  Local Heroes, similar to 3rd or 4th level D&D characters. A party working together has enough power to overcome most obstacles, but are nowhere close to invulnerable. The established priest at a village temple should be fifth level, as are many military officers. this defines what sort of power level the local watch has, what town defenses should be, and how much healing can be expected from the village resources. Players definitely outstrip the average person, but communities can deal with troublemakers. Early villains should be in this power level as well.

     After defeating a few minor villains and overcoming many obstacles, characters should move further afield. Instead of facing threats in neighboring villages, a major town or moderate noble may ask for aid. Characters level 8-10 become regional heroes. They find fewer peers: a senior animist in a sacred grove, senior officers, minor nobles, and perhaps a noted scholar. Villains should have solid plans, additional minions, and more power. By this point, players have more influence on events. Their successes and failures become topics of discussion.

     I place levels 11-15 together as Masters. D Picks from spell lists make their entry. Some characters have 21+ ranks in a specific skill. Spell casters can access very powerful effects which alter play. Teleport spells alter campaign movement. Death becomes much less of a concern when the Cleric has Lifegiving spells. Villains work behind the scene more. Major organizations need to be aware of such individuals or groups.

     Above the Masters are the Great Heroes of level 16-19. Unless the GM is very careful, high level spell casters will dominate the game. Certainly realms need to keep track of Illusionists, as Illusion X can disrupt THOUSANDS of troops. No ARMY can afford to have 10,000 troops caught in one 2560' radius illusion of a giant blueberry muffin! Having individuals to cast such spells prevent the enemy from doing so become critical.

     Rolemaster defines Lords as Level Twenty or higher. This is the only title or tier specifically developed for the game. Spells have a tremendous impact at this level. Rivals and enemies need to keep track of spell users, simply due to the innate danger they present.

     I want to add Epic as a name for a higher tier. Once players reach a certain level (level 36 or so), they can cast any spell of level 30 or lower without preparation.At such a point, such characters near demigod status.

Offline rafmeister

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Re: Tiers of Play
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2018, 01:51:18 PM »
     Since the first post took so long to define the terms, this reply will address some specific points. First, different tiers feel and play differently. Second, a GM needs to tailor this concept to his specific setting. A campaign where every NPC in the village is a first level farmer plays differently from one with 5th level merchants as shopkeepers. Third, GMs need to balance the power levels for their campaign levels. A simple expedient involves starting all characters at a higher level (say 3rd, 5th, or 8th level). This fits characters into the story the GM wants to tell at a proper level.

Offline jdale

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Re: Tiers of Play
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2018, 06:37:11 PM »
That's a useful discussion. I will note that it depends somewhat on the edition you are using. RMSS/RMFRP characters at 1st level are much, much more competent than 1st level RM2/RMC or RMU characters. It may be reasonable to think of 1-4th level RMSS characters as local heroes, even though it is not for RM2/RMC or RMU characters.
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Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: Tiers of Play
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2018, 10:09:23 PM »
That's a useful discussion. I will note that it depends somewhat on the edition you are using. RMSS/RMFRP characters at 1st level are much, much more competent than 1st level RM2/RMC or RMU characters. It may be reasonable to think of 1-4th level RMSS characters as local heroes, even though it is not for RM2/RMC or RMU characters.

I still think of 1st - 2nd level RMSS characters as children and apprentices. For me, 4th - 6th level is a qualified but not experienced character -- journeyman artisans just post-apprenticeship, well-trained soldiers with limited campaign experience, etc ...

I use roughly the following guidelines:

4th - 6th Level: Qualified, with limited experience.

10th level is for Masters, skilled veterans and elite troops. A bunch of 10th level fighters is impressive, but not a shockingly rare sight.

15th - 20th level is where the truly exceptional begin to show their superiority to the masses. A Grand Master among artisans is most likely 20th level or higher.

Only a handful of individuals will exceed 20th, and at 30th you're approaching demigod status.

Offline Sable Wyvern

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Re: Tiers of Play
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2018, 01:54:07 AM »
I confess, I hadn't read the OP properly when I initially posted. I thought my perspective was quite different, but it looks like we're almost identical on levels 15+, it's just the earlier stuff where we differ.

Offline Druss_the_Legend

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Re: Tiers of Play
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2018, 01:29:16 AM »
good thread. interesting topic. i like the ideas about townsfolk vs local heroes.
in my current campaign pcs are about level 6-7 and are staring to seek out adventures outside their local area/city.

Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Tiers of Play
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2018, 12:39:18 PM »
I tend to boost first level characters through cultural skills and other background stuff because I feel they need to capable and survivable at first level. If they're not, why even have it available? Admittedly part of that comes from gaming with non-fantasy settings, but I still find it useful for players. I also use RM2 core rules for non-fantasy settings, and you need to adjust quite a few concepts for that to work.

I do think it's a good discussion to have, especially since I've seen a few GMs who have difficulty adjusting their style or objective to the starting level of their players. It also needs to be an ongoing affair, with goals, objectives and adversaries changing as the characters 'grow' and become more capable.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Tiers of Play
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2018, 06:33:12 AM »
I've been using this for the past twenty-five years or so...
  • Low Human.
    This power level is the level of normal adult human beings, living normal 'boring' lives, practising their profession. A beginner, fresh out of apprenticeship would be level 1 while someone at the end of his career and soon to retire would be level 10. The majority are thus level 4-5.

  • High Human.
    This power level is the level of elites, hard-trained people whose life only consists of hard training and actual practice, such as mercenaries always on a battlefield. An elite 'rookie' would be around level 10 while a veteran with fifty (gwaydan) years of constant adventuring would be level 16. These people have seen and lived through everything a normal human can see and experience (war including civil war, calamities, revolts, famine, etc.) and have even lived through several confrontations with supernatural or divine entities.

    Ordinary human beings cannot normally exceed level 16 without divine intervention because one would need to live more than what any human being can live, because a human life, even an heroic one, doesn't give enough experience about reality and the world to reach level 17.

    Above them, you have the legends: people who, through a way or another, lived a dozen lifetimes, travelled over the world, met on a regular basis supernatural or divine entities, fought them and are part of the stories, legends and tales of whole Islands, yet are fundamentally human in essence. These people are level 17 to 19 (generally called the "heroic levels").

  • Low Angelic.
    This power level cannot be reached by normal human beings, without divine help; a human body and a human mind can reach this state but they'd need knowledge or training means not usually accessible to them. This power level is also the power level of most Angels and "human beings above human beings" such as Dragon-Knights, Agents of the Dream Master or Heralds of Night; "enhanced" human beings, if you want. A mature dragon is about this power level. At this power level, a being is rumoured to be able to single-handily take down a whole city... or even a whole Island. It covers levels 20 to 30, and is divided into five angelic ranks: 20-21 (Rank 4), 22-24 (Rank 3), 25-27 (Rank 2), 28-29 (Rank 1) et 30 (Rank 0).

  • High Angelic.
    There's no way for a human being to reach this power level, as it's way beyond the limits of a human body and mind. Only a few creatures are of this power level: Angelic Lieutenants, Devils, Couplets of the First Refrain, Unified Dragon-Knights, oldest dragons and Infernal Champions. At this power level, taking down single-handily a whole City or a whole army is child's play. This category covers levels 31 to 50.

  • Archangelic.
    With this power level, we're entering the domain of gods. Demi-gods and assimilated are of this power level: Archangels, Archdevils, Couplets of the Second Refrain, Theorems, non-divine Dragon-Lords, Nyurath Princes, Sheffanows and Shiten'oh. Utter-powerful, yet limited on what they can actually do because of divine intervention rules. This category covers levels 51 to 100.

  • Minor Divine.
    Well, gods: Lords of Light and Darkness, Celestial and Infernal Princes, Couplets of the Third and Fourth Refrains, Axioms, Allegorical Divinities, MügenDarsten UmbdTrassën, Elemental Kyngs and divine Dragon-Lords.

  • Major Divine.
    Conceptual and Allegorical Entities.
Based on that, though it's foremost to create NPCs, I defined:
  • The "average" guy, of level 5,
  • The "above basic" guy, such as, for instance, the leader of a patrol made of "average guys" militiamen, of level 7,
  • The "expert" guy, expert in his field of expertise and slightly better than the "above basic" guy, of level 8,
  • The "basic elite" guy, of level 10,
  • The "above elite" guy, of level 12,
  • The "minor hero", with the reputation of being the best... in his region/province, of level 13,
  • The "hero", close to becoming of an "heroic level", if he's able to overcome the normal human being lifespan.
The world was then consumed by darkness, and mankind was devoured alive and cast into hell, led by a jubilant 紗羽. She rejoiced in being able to continue serving the gods, thus perpetuating her travels across worlds to destroy them. She looked at her doll and, remembering their promises, told her: "You see, my dear, we succeeded! We've become legends! We've become villains! We've become witches!" She then laughed with a joyful, childlike laughter, just as she kept doing for all of eternity.