Author Topic: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?  (Read 26578 times)

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Offline Arc

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2016, 06:28:03 PM »
Great to see so much enthusiasm for Shadow World and so many good ideas here.

As B Hanson and egdcltd pointed out, I also think it is very important that this work really builds on what makes this fantasy world unique (and imo so loved by us all). I think this is where ICE went astray in the 90's when publishing a bunch of modules that very little of the unique SW feel. Let's not make the same mistake here  :P.

Location: I think Xa-ar is a great location for a nice adventure arc. TKA has already given us an excellent setting and framework to operate within, and this will ensure we can give it the feel and tone of SW (there are Priests Arnak there, spies of Ulor, constructs from the First Era, Earthwarden "technology", powerful flow storms, Loremasters, etc). I agree that Rapata is an ideal starting point.
Adventure Path: I think keeping the campaign path as a shadow arc is the way to go here, as it will allow the adventure modules to work as stand alone but also as a campaign path for those who get hooked.
Length: I would plan on keeping this 5-6 modules long (maximum) to keep the balance level manageable.
Starting level: I would start the PC at level 3, as in RMU that's essentially the experience level of a young adult (I don't think we want to have pre-teens, the RMU lvl 1's) running around.
Player Characters: I would make a bunch (maybe 10) of full fledged PC's for these modules. This would allow GM's and Players to have something pre-generated in order to get right into the action. Taking a noob to the system (RM) through the relative high complexity of making a PC might actually put them off the system rather than pull them in. I always loved taking new players to the system through the old MERP ready to run modules.

So let's get a few new Shadow World modules done, shall we?  ;) 8)

Offline bpowell

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2016, 09:10:24 PM »
I think INTRODUCING the things that you are pointing out as the items that make the SW different that other settings is good.  But I must admit it gives me some concern.  One of the major issue I have had over the years trying to introduce SW to my players is the perceived power level.  I admit I have many of the modules and use them for background reference, and have not spent years playing the SW, so I am not the best person to make the case for bringing those things into a series of adventures that are build specifically to bring new players into the fold.

I agree with 3rd level as a starting level.  It was suggested that the first adventure be for 1-5 and that is right in the middle of that range.  But what 3rd level character could work with all that High level magic.  In the past I know that my player shrugged and went to find something else to play.  Even when a person that loved the SW was running and I was just playing.  Letting a 3rd level see a Flow from a distance and knowing they exist out there an introduction.  Maybe in the adventure where they are 10-15 they can tamper in the area of a Flow.

The town mentioned, Rapata, has access to a main road and even a Navigator obelisk nearby.  Since we are starting there that gives is the ability to introduce the outside world to this small town.  We can flavor the adventures by dropping hint of the outside world (Priest, Loremasters, and the like) without then walking down the streets bumping elbows with the populace.  I mean what would bring some powerful being to a town worth literally 2 copper pieces to rub together?

I think we need to get a framework for the adventures down and then add in flavor pieces.  I say ease new players into the SW, I think you will find a better acceptance level.  IMO I think most newbies feel they are tossed into the deep end of the pool and expected to swim.  They have a new system to learn, and now a LOT of information to digest.

Since I do not have Xa-ar (yet)  can some one let me know the least imposing feature of the SW that is nearby to Rapata?  We can look at introducing this in the first adventure, either as a side bar or the like.  Then we add more and more things, before you know it we have a new class of SW experts.

-BP

Offline bpowell

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #82 on: February 10, 2016, 09:26:33 PM »

Player Characters: I would make a bunch (maybe 10) of full fledged PC's for these modules. This would allow GM's and Players to have something pre-generated in order to get right into the action. Taking a noob to the system (RM) through the relative high complexity of making a PC might actually put them off the system rather than pull them in. I always loved taking new players to the system through the old MERP ready to run modules.


I have been kicking this around during a long swim this evening.  What professions should we start with, and which ones do we leave on the shelf.  I was thinking of creating a pre-gen of each profession in RMU and then was daunted by the task.  I agree that 10 might be an excellent number.  The book lists 22 professions, but who really wants to be a Laborer.  If we were starting at 1st I might have then be a Laborer and then change after that.

I was thinking taking the following Professions and using them (Please let me know why I am wrong, I am just brainstorming here and am not going to take offense)

Non-Spellcasters
      Fighter -  basic that any town might have a few of running around
      Thief - A town means things to steal
      Rogue - A bully boy in town trying to go straight (?)

Pure Spellcasters
      Cleric - the apprentice priest in the town
      Magician - The local wizard's apprentice out for his first adventure
      Mentalist - an apprentice here to stretch his talents.
      Lay Healer - a traveling "Doctor" looking to expand his practice.

Semi Spellcasters
      Ranger -  a wagoner on a caravan using the main road from town to town.
      Paladin - a young knight errant
      Bard - a new entertainer looking for new tales to tell

Again just spit balling.  Like the list?  Hate it?  If the later tell me why and what you would change.  remember I am an SW newbie so I might have things wrong from the start and we can correct them easily now.

-BP

Offline bpowell

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #83 on: February 11, 2016, 02:42:52 AM »
OK, I just bought and downloaded the Xa-ar source material.  I do like the layout and what small amount I have read.  Are we looking to start in the City of Rapata?  I use the term city, because the source material mentions that the population is "some 7,000".  Or is this information outdated?

We could start in a smaller village say between Rapata and the mining town of Roog.  This could provide for a smaller start point, but the ability to "sneak away to the big city" to get materials or information.

Curiosity question.

-BP

Offline Arc

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #84 on: February 11, 2016, 04:59:29 AM »
Shadow World Feel
I don't think it will be difficult at all to introduce Shadow World specific elements. To a large degree (90%+) this is like any other high fantasy setting, we just need to ensure that we give it the right SW flavour. Also this does not mean that our low lvl PC's should be traveling around with Navigator's, fraternize with Loremasters and take on Priests Arnak with wielding powerful items from a long gone era. But the presence of these should be somehow incorporated, it shouldn't be just a copy paste of a generic fantasy adventure. Similarly to what you suggested with witnessing a flow storm. As I said, I wouldn't worry too much about this. This board is full of SW enthusiasts so giving it the SW feel should become easy.

Professions
I think your list of profession suggestions is fine. I would only exchange the Lay to a Healer so that we can have a hybrid spell user in the mix as well. Maybe the apprentice to a retired Sister of Eissa? or a novice Sister of Ginh Tarn?

Starting Town:
Maybe Rapata is too big for the first module (or 2)... Foe a slightly smaller town, I think Tepentor could be an interesting town to start from: Bullying Quaidu refugees, racial tensions, looming fear of conquest from Ulor, etc.

Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2016, 06:04:32 AM »
I am having a great time following this discussion, and excited to see what you all come up with. Just a note about SW being perceived as 'High-powered.' I never felt that SW was a game where you had to be high-powered to play, at least at the start; I'm sure many of you already know that. Sure there are power players like the Ahrenreth and Dragonlords, but the characters will not see them until much later—if at all—in person. Powers like that would be a vague scary rumor, if the PCs hear of them at all until they are many sessions into a game. Loremasters and Navigators would be like unapproachable celebrities, (like nobility in many cases).

These beings have minions to do their dirty work, and their minions have minions. If inexperienced PCs happen to stumble on someone really powerful, they might very well just be ignored. Unless they are sneaking around in the evil lord's fortress of course...  ;)
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Offline Arc

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2016, 06:39:44 AM »
I am having a great time following this discussion, and excited to see what you all come up with. Just a note about SW being perceived as 'High-powered.' I never felt that SW was a game where you had to be high-powered to play, at least at the start; I'm sure many of you already know that. Sure there are power players like the Ahrenreth and Dragonlords, but the characters will not see them until much later—if at all—in person. Powers like that would be a vague scary rumor, if the PCs hear of them at all until they are many sessions into a game. Loremasters and Navigators would be like unapproachable celebrities, (like nobility in many cases).

These beings have minions to do their dirty work, and their minions have minions. If inexperienced PCs happen to stumble on someone really powerful, they might very well just be ignored. Unless they are sneaking around in the evil lord's fortress of course...  ;)


I agree, while there are very powerful beings in Kulthea, they are usually beyond the direct scope of most adventures. But as you said there are many many layers of minions before you get to the really bad guys, and these layers can give PC's ample opportunity for adventure. I think the Xa-ar module (as well as the GGI) reflect these layers well, and hence provide good starting points for an adventure path.

Story Arc
I think BP's initial suggestion of stopping war coming to the area works very well in Xa-ar where the threat of war and conquest from Ulor is constant. The overall story could see the PC's uncover the Brotherhood of the Four Roses, thwart the plans of Lorgalis and maybe ultimately even confront his daughter Shenti Vortaen. In the process they could be aided by the Winter Light, the Order of the Elder, the Loremasters and perversely maybe even the Priests Arnak.

Offline egdcltd

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #87 on: February 11, 2016, 09:56:54 AM »
I think I'd agree that possibly the players should initially start in one of the smaller settlements, which could be covered in detail as well, before moving to Rapata. War would certainly be a shadowy arc at the beginning; it's always been a fear, but it's not really a problem on  the forefront of most peoples' minds currently.
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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #88 on: February 11, 2016, 10:03:58 AM »
I think I'd agree that possibly the players should initially start in one of the smaller settlements, which could be covered in detail as well, before moving to Rapata. War would certainly be a shadowy arc at the beginning; it's always been a fear, but it's not really a problem on  the forefront of most peoples' minds currently.

Well the area is certainly rife with villages, both in Saralis and further west in Xa-ar, and lots of adventure possibilities.
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Offline Witchking20k

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #89 on: February 11, 2016, 10:38:51 AM »
The story arc should lead to a dragon.  LOL.  I recall there being a Dragon Cult of sorts in Xa'ar......
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Offline egdcltd

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #90 on: February 11, 2016, 10:43:16 AM »
Yes, there are a lot of suitable starting locations in Xa-ar. Have to be careful with the adventures that they don't make the actual Xa-ar book irrelevant. So maybe mention things like the Bridge Caves, but not actually cover them.
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Offline Terry K. Amthor

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2016, 11:53:26 AM »
Yes, there are a lot of suitable starting locations in Xa-ar. Have to be careful with the adventures that they don't make the actual Xa-ar book irrelevant. So maybe mention things like the Bridge Caves, but not actually cover them.

I appreciate that (and the caves are pretty high-level anyway), but I think it would be fine if you used the Brotherhood of the Four Roses, be aided by the Winter Light, the Order of the Elder, etc, from Xa-ar, and re-use some of that material and even expand on it.

There are also two adventures in the Guild Adventurer books set in this area: Rose Petals and Snow Lions is in Rapata, in #2, and the Keeper of the Thorn, GA #3, a bit more wild and high-end, in Saralis. These could provide additional source material, including background and maps. If Nicholas is ok with it, I can send you PDFs of these books (or even just the Shadow World portions).
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Offline egdcltd

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #92 on: February 11, 2016, 12:13:12 PM »
Well, the idea is to increase the amount of material available, not cannibalise the existing material and make it irrelevant (unless it's old material, such as I originally mentioned). I also don't think it would be right.

I actually have those adventures myself, so I'm okay, but others may not.
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Offline bpowell

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #93 on: February 11, 2016, 12:29:07 PM »
Yes, there are a lot of suitable starting locations in Xa-ar. Have to be careful with the adventures that they don't make the actual Xa-ar book irrelevant. So maybe mention things like the Bridge Caves, but not actually cover them.

OK, I think we are all thinking of a small village in the area of Rapata.  Population, say, between 500 and 1,000?  We could build it and populate it and this would not cause any issues with Xa-ar as it stands.  The major market for any surplus goods could be Rapata, giving the ability to have higher cost items than could be produced in such a small village available.  The village could be just finishing a major rebuild from the last war and people have become used to the peace and prosperity that has come lately.

If we move the village a full days travel (~30 miles) away from Rapata it should be fairly independent in the day to day events.  But close enough that some of the characters might have apprenticed in Rapata and still have contacts there.  It will also allow for tie-ins with the factions in the city (Winter Light, Brotherhood of the Four Roses, even some contacts with the Quaidu underworld).  This would allow the characters to find information ("Just what is this piece of melted metal, and why is it not rusted?") and items ("What?!?!?! You want 5 silver a piece for Akbutege leaf?  Are you mad?!?!")

As for making information in the source book obsolete, I would say if we stay faithful to the material there will just be one more village in the area.  And since Terry is protectively watching over the project we should not break anything.  In fact this might be a lever to have new players buy the Xa-ar source book.

Comment on the village setting?

-BP

Offline tbigness

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #94 on: February 11, 2016, 12:36:20 PM »

I have been kicking this around during a long swim this evening.  What professions should we start with, and which ones do we leave on the shelf.  I was thinking of creating a pre-gen of each profession in RMU and then was daunted by the task.  I agree that 10 might be an excellent number.  The book lists 22 professions, but who really wants to be a Laborer.  If we were starting at 1st I might have then be a Laborer and then change after that.

I was thinking taking the following Professions and using them (Please let me know why I am wrong, I am just brainstorming here and am not going to take offense)

Non-Spellcasters
      Fighter -  basic that any town might have a few of running around
      Thief - A town means things to steal
      Rogue - A bully boy in town trying to go straight (?)

Pure Spellcasters
      Cleric - the apprentice priest in the town
      Magician - The local wizard's apprentice out for his first adventure
      Mentalist - an apprentice here to stretch his talents.
      Lay Healer - a traveling "Doctor" looking to expand his practice.

Semi Spellcasters
      Ranger -  a wagoner on a caravan using the main road from town to town.
      Paladin - a young knight errant
      Bard - a new entertainer looking for new tales to tell

Again just spit balling.  Like the list?  Hate it?  If the later tell me why and what you would change.  remember I am an SW newbie so I might have things wrong from the start and we can correct them easily now.

-BP

Ok great list to start with I like most of the professions listed. I agree with ARC and would change the Lay Healer with a Healer as the characters would need this support person at a greater level. I would take out the Bard as this is more of a flavor character and hard to play the concept with music and spells for beginners. I would put in the Laborer as a Blacksmith apprentice as this will still be a worthy character or use the Dabbler- trouble maker or Magent- tattle tell/Spy apprentice. 

I think level 3 is the wrong tone for a beginners Module and should be level one with ways to incorporate small missions to advance to other levels with ease. If the product cannot support a level one character then there is an issue at the core of the game. This has been address many times and a system must support the character at the lowest level or the system fails. RMSS was able to have competent characters at level 1 or 2, so should RMU. At the very most start at level 2.

The adventure should have short stops at Rapata for small missions such as drop-offs or pick-ups of people or items which can be a point for Shadow Arc rumors, Items, Gear, Spells, Exposure to pickpockets, Black Marketers, Scoundrels, Dishonest Merchants, Ect..... All this without any real adventure set in the city to return back to the town with items and tales of Rumors and experiences. You don't have to be high level for any of this.
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Offline tbigness

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #95 on: February 11, 2016, 12:41:34 PM »
Yes, there are a lot of suitable starting locations in Xa-ar. Have to be careful with the adventures that they don't make the actual Xa-ar book irrelevant. So maybe mention things like the Bridge Caves, but not actually cover them.

OK, I think we are all thinking of a small village in the area of Rapata.  Population, say, between 500 and 1,000?  We could build it and populate it and this would not cause any issues with Xa-ar as it stands.  The major market for any surplus goods could be Rapata, giving the ability to have higher cost items than could be produced in such a small village available.  The village could be just finishing a major rebuild from the last war and people have become used to the peace and prosperity that has come lately.

If we move the village a full days travel (~30 miles) away from Rapata it should be fairly independent in the day to day events.  But close enough that some of the characters might have apprenticed in Rapata and still have contacts there.  It will also allow for tie-ins with the factions in the city (Winter Light, Brotherhood of the Four Roses, even some contacts with the Quaidu underworld).  This would allow the characters to find information ("Just what is this piece of melted metal, and why is it not rusted?") and items ("What?!?!?! You want 5 silver a piece for Akbutege leaf?  Are you mad?!?!")

As for making information in the source book obsolete, I would say if we stay faithful to the material there will just be one more village in the area.  And since Terry is protectively watching over the project we should not break anything.  In fact this might be a lever to have new players buy the Xa-ar source book.

Comment on the village setting?

-BP

I think this would be a great addition to the Module and a later modified map or information addition could be made to the Module as a second edition if Terry elected too, or it could be a town already on the map with the updates from this module to enhance it. I am not currently looking at the module so I don't know a town that maybe close enough at the moment.
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Offline egdcltd

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #96 on: February 11, 2016, 01:09:18 PM »
The two closest towns on the map to Rapata look to be Tepentor and Roog. Both look to be over 75 miles away, and have populations of 2,000+ and 1,500 respectively. This may make them a bit too distant, and a bit too large. A small satellite village of Rapata somewhere closer - I would say most likely a fishing village - seems quite plausible.

I'd have to have another look through Xa-ar for cultural ideas for the village. My overall feeling is that the area is going to be closer to Renaissance than to early medieval. Perhaps 15th century equivalent (assuming British/European).
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Offline bpowell

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2016, 01:30:09 PM »

Ok great list to start with I like most of the professions listed. I agree with ARC and would change the Lay Healer with a Healer as the characters would need this support person at a greater level. I would take out the Bard as this is more of a flavor character and hard to play the concept with music and spells for beginners. I would put in the Laborer as a Blacksmith apprentice as this will still be a worthy character or use the Dabbler- trouble maker or Magent- tattle tell/Spy apprentice. 

I think level 3 is the wrong tone for a beginners Module and should be level one with ways to incorporate small missions to advance to other levels with ease. If the product cannot support a level one character then there is an issue at the core of the game. This has been address many times and a system must support the character at the lowest level or the system fails. RMSS was able to have competent characters at level 1 or 2, so should RMU. At the very most start at level 2.

The adventure should have short stops at Rapata for small missions such as drop-offs or pick-ups of people or items which can be a point for Shadow Arc rumors, Items, Gear, Spells, Exposure to pickpockets, Black Marketers, Scoundrels, Dishonest Merchants, Ect..... All this without any real adventure set in the city to return back to the town with items and tales of Rumors and experiences. You don't have to be high level for any of this.

Hmm, love the feedback.  Let me start with professions.  I am in no way ties to this list.  Just what seemed to call out to me while waiting for a work e-mail at nearly 2 AM.  I can see ditching the Lay Healer for the Healer.  For me it was a flavor idea.  Face it the Lay Healer is almost unique to RM.  But i can easily see where the Healer would be of a great benefit to the party.

The reason I have a Bard in the listing is that it is a profession that is in almost every setting known to Man and Beast.  Before the advent of electronic forms of entertainment they were crucial for entertainment and news.  But swapping it out for a Magent would be very OK in my book.  To be completely honest I would have placed the Magent on the list if I was running in one of the settings I created.  I enjoy the profession, but was worried it was a bias on my part.  The issue would be to integrate the Magent in the village.   Hmmm let me think on the politics of the village, might come up with a good idea.

I find the idea of starting at 1st level appealing.  To me it is about building the character and advancing him/her trough the missteps of their lives.  But I can see the issue with a 1st level RM character is very low powered.  While the bully boys (fighter, rogue even thief) can hold their own the spellcaster are left far behind.  Almost anything useful would be an Overcast.  I might have a way around this that might appeal to many folks.....(wait for it....)

We have been kicking around a path from level x to level y where y > x (Hey it is Romemaster there HAS to be math  ;D )  But why does it have to be a single linear adventure.  I have been kicking around a grouop of LOOSELY link mini-adventures set in the village.  These might include what I call "the house that Jack built" starter.  we have all heard the old kids tale that describes lot of things all interrelated and each paragraph where they introduce a new item ends with "in the house that Jack built."  I use this name for an adventure that seemingly runs you arund the town in a unending series of tasks.  Say you have  ahole in the sole of your right boot.  Well you go to Clavin the Cobbler.  He would love to help but her has no leather, he is waiting on Thom the Tanner to deliver some.  So you go to Thom to see what the hold up is, and he tells you her is waiting on some lye from Artie the Apothecary.  You go to Artie and find out he is waiting on something else.   The four or fifth person might need some fighting done (large rats in the basement stop them from getting the flour, or some such).  Then you work you way all the way back down to Calvin who fixes you boot for free for getting the leather.

In the mini-adventure above you meet many of the locals.  Then one of them calls on you to do a favor for him.  This leads to the next part and so on and so forth.  This methodology is used a lot in D&D 5e.  Unfortunately it has become a great way for the Attention Challenged to play the game and not have to spend all 4 hours in a  slot.  Sorry , putting away the soapbox)

OK, as one can see I am doing a lot of things in the mini-adventures that are leading up to bigger and bigger things.  The characters could advance from 1st levels that need help tying their shoes to MIGHTY 3rd levels that can take on the large rat and win! 

Comments?  Like it or am I really suffering from a lack of sleep.

-BP

Offline tbigness

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2016, 01:33:45 PM »
Actually that is a fair distance away as to why the City would be a grand adventure to get to, which leads to  an overnight adventure to go to it. It is also a reason for lack of rumors in the town concerning the city or this region as a whole due to being isolated. I actually think that that would be a great starting point and the population may seem large but it would support some commerce in the town to have different low level professions that can be apprenticed to.
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Offline tbigness

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Re: Crowdsourcing an Adventure Path?
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2016, 01:40:43 PM »
Yes I like your path to the low level adventuring. Could also require a trip to pick certain flowers for dyes or getting wood to make coal, hunting rabbits (traps or arrows) could be adventurous. Low level casters can have a big impact with Sleep spells, Healing, Stun effects ect.....
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