Topic: About RM game line...

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Thinking about power points, exhaustion points and hit points, I was wondering if we could just use exhaustion. Spell would consume exhaustion based on how succesful they are (blunders draining the pool dramatically, perfect succes costing few points). This pool would be developped at a slow rate. Just throwing an idea.

Yes you can. The only downside is that some people might associate this style of power too much with psion powers. Personally I think such system would be a great benefit to the fantasy game since it make more easy to represent innate abilities of races, monsters and superheroes. The idea that you must keep the magic and psion systems separate by using different rule mechanics is bad if you ask me since limit the design of the game rules without real benefits.

Actually, I don’t propose to fuel spells by spending exhaustion points, but to fuel the ability to channel power with exhaustion points. To do magic, you still need a power source. Of course, if exhaustion is used to represent resistance to pain and exhaustion from physical, intellectual and magic activities, you can also use it to represent the strain from breathing fire, secreting poison or using an ability that’d allow to scale walls more efficiently. Exhaustion would just represent how much the body is strained from effort.

[VladD]

This has gone a slight bit off topic; but I'd like to pitch in:

Its probably most realistic to use some sort of exhaustion rules to replace Hp and PP. Its like triple the same system, while combat and magical effectiveness is probably measured by exhaustion alone.
People don't succumb to 1000 pin pricks, but I think taking wounds and even partaking combat is very tiring. In the end a battle (wrestling match, fencing, even other sporting event) is won by being less exhausted than the other guy, given equally skilled opponents.
Maybe the system should be made more interesting, with something like multiple exhaustion levels (I mean like 10) and a way of accumulating exhaustion that isn't linear (since in reality it isn't). Let it capture stuff like penalties to activity, bleeding and wound trauma, as well as Hp and PP. I'm not that well read in RPG mechanisms, but I think it hasn't been looked at, that way. Also it simplifies things on the keeping-track-side.
Even call it something like effectiveness, or energy...

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Stamina?

[Cormac Doyle]

technically, every time you cast a spell, use a psion, walk down a flight of steps, etc, you DO use some of your Exhaustion points in addition to whatever PPs you may need.

So from that POV, this system is already in plcae.

The big problem is that the current exhaustion point mechanism is excessively clumsy and requires more effort/bookkeeping than you gain in playability or enjoyment.

If you do a search for "fatigue" and my name, you should be able to find an entirely separate "Fatigue" mechanism that I proposed to replace exhaustion ... and yes, you could also use it to directly power Psions/etc if necessary ...

[GrumpyOldFart]

If you do a search for "fatigue" and my name, you should be able to find an entirely separate "Fatigue" mechanism that I proposed to replace exhaustion ... and yes, you could also use it to directly power Psions/etc if necessary ...

I went and looked, and found this:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=775.msg9975#msg9975

Is that what you were referring to?

[giulio.trimarco]

The exhaustion by level is a great thing and will be an easier calculation.

Say there will be a Stamina skill in which you develop ranks + SD/CO.This is the base threshold.
So, if you have +20 tha base threshold (BT) will be 20.

There are 10 levels of exhaustion: from BTx1 to BTx10

From now on you will build up hits taken, spells cast, fatigue used, etc. Every level of exhaustion reached will impose some penalty, from -10 (or -5) to -100 (or -50).
This is much easier to compute during character updates and during the game itself, and you will only have to compute one stat instead of three (Hits, PP and exhaustion).

Ex. Say you have a BT of 20 and you are hit for 12 concussion hits, you have accumulated +12 exhaustion. No penalty, yet.
Next you will cast a spell with a cost of 10PP. 12+10 = 22, so you are now -10 (or -5).

[JimiSue]

I don't see the big deal about this "fatigue replacing hits, exhaustion and power points" thing. I mean, it isn't such a hard thing to keep track of three pools of numbers - given other book-keeping going on in play it's a pretty minor ask really. And as a player, I prefer having multiple things to keep track of anyway, helps me to feel more involved with the game.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

In my opinion, less bookkeeping = more roleplay, more story, more fun.

[jdale]

We reduce bookkeeping by not using exhaustion points at all.

[pastaav]

If you do a search for "fatigue" and my name, you should be able to find an entirely separate "Fatigue" mechanism that I proposed to replace exhaustion ... and yes, you could also use it to directly power Psions/etc if necessary ...

I went and looked, and found this:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=775.msg9975#msg9975

Is that what you were referring to?

I think that is the correct link. I very much liked the idea and have added it to my game with some modifications. Below I paste the current version of the rules that I use.

Exhaustion
*no exhaustion points are counted, instead rules for "pushing the limit" as detailed below are used.
*You have to beat your current Exhaustion Limit (EL) to keep going without (more?) penalties
*EL start at 50 and is increased by 10 for every period the character is pushing the limit. EL rolls are modified by the characters Co/Co/SD bonus.
*Failing to beat the EL will give you a exhaustion penalty until you rest
*exhaustion penalties are 0/-20/-40/-60/-80/-100...
*recovery time are 1 minute of rest or 3 minutes of normal activity. Each recovery period reduce your EL by 10 and move you one exhaustion class up(i.e. from -50 to -30).
* Adrenal-type maneuverer can be triggered without pushing the limits if the character is not pushing the limits for any other reason, and only for one round. After that round the character must push the limits to trigger Adrenals …
*Base stride is 12 meters per round, or 36 feet per round, or 2 meters per second, or 6 feet per second
* Combat - increases EL every 6 rounds (1 minute)
* Jogging (x2 pace) - increases EL every 6 rounds (1 minute)
* Running (x3 pace) - increases EL every 1 round
* Sprinting (x4 pace) - increases EL every 2 seconds
* Dashing (x5 pace) - increases EL every second
* You can accelerate at most one pace per second. This means it takes about five seconds to reach dashing speed. EL checks frequency depends on target speed and not the speed the character has reached so far.
*Additional Factors - Sleep Deprivation / Hunger / Long-term Exhaustion/ Sickness - forces the character to do EL roll even when rested. In severe cases the EL could start higher than 50.
(The above rules means the master sprinter with good stats need about 9 second for 100 meters, A newbee sprinter cover about 50 meters in the same time)

[Cory Magel]

What I'd eventually like to see it a system where whatever the points are called (Exhaustion, whatever) and simply what Arms users use for special attack and Spell users use as spell points.  I've toyed with theories in my head, but I've never bothered to try and put it on paper and work it out yet.

[intothatdarkness]

We reduce bookkeeping by not using exhaustion points at all.

Agree. I've never been a fan of exhaustion points.

[Kristen Mork]

We find that they're really only needed to limit the amount of time a caster can a) concentrate on a spell or b) concentrate to keep a spell prepared.  At 1 exhaustion point per minute, one cannot keep a (c) spell around forever.

[jdale]

We find that they're really only needed to limit the amount of time a caster can a) concentrate on a spell or b) concentrate to keep a spell prepared.  At 1 exhaustion point per minute, one cannot keep a (c) spell around forever.

I'm not really a fan of tacking other functions on to Exhaustion Points because then you have to track Exhaustion Points. Right now they can safely be ignored without really affecting anything else.

I like the Spell Concentration skill as a solution for concentration. I think it was in one of the realm Companions, a new skill in the Self-Control category (this is RMSS). Basically, the number of ranks is your base number of concentration rounds. E.g. if you have 5 ranks, you can concentrate for 5 rounds automatically. At the end of that time, you have to make a Spell Concentration static maneuver to continue concentrating. And then again at that interval (e.g. with 5 ranks, you make another Spell Concentration check every 5 rounds).

If you didn't want to have a new and separate skill, you could also make the base number of concentration rounds your Self-Discipline stat bonus (or that x3 or +5 or whatever if you want to be generous), and use your bonus in the spell list to make the check. No DP sink, no skill bloat, fairly simple mechanism that improves as you get better with the spells.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Well, I’d bring spell concentration in the same ground than the general ability to concentrate on something, thus droping the extra skill and using meditation or another that’d do the same.

But the matter was not “what to do with exhaustion points as they are now” but rather “how to bring HP, EP and PP in the same pool” and a pool of points that’d represent the strain of pain, effort and power channeling would be a great step towards a reduction of bookkeeping. It would also prevent mages with a few EP left from casting lvl 50 spells without too much trouble.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

As a whole, I don’t like it when skills are added “because it’s magic”. If the skill is really JUST related to magic, OK, go on. But if it’s the same than another activity not linked to magic, then a generic skill should be enough.

Same goes with poisons and herbs. Why separate skills. Merge then in one skill, because what can heal you can also kill you, it’s a matter of proportion. Arsenic can cure cancer. It can also kill you lightning fast. (And herds don’t cover remedies extracted from minerals and animals at that, so there is a gap.)

[giulio.trimarco]

In my opinion blending HP/PP/EP is painless.

While I can't say to be able to cast spells, I can assume that casting one could be comparable to 8 hours of works on a PC.
While you're not physically tired the final outcame is that... well,  your globally tired.
The same after three round of boxing: your fatigued.

Since in RM hits are pain, stress, etc, I see that they can be safely pooled.
Skill cost could be race-based instead of profession based.

I'll drop completely the exhaustion tracking for actions and will add options to voluntarily spend it to gains benefit.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

I’d drop professions and dp and would make skills gain ranks when employed. The probability to gain 1 rank in a skill should vary according to values chosen at character creation (or according to stat bonuses, or not vary at all). The ability to channel magic power should be a talent with a downside (reduced ability to gain ranks in some other fields). Each type of magic should be a talent, you have to buy all the types to be an arcane caster.
Those talents should have ranks, ranging from no casting ability to exceptional magic ability (none, poor, mild, mediocre, good, very good, excellent, exceptional). Depending on the setting, most character should start with none to mild magic power channeling ability).

The new EP skill would gain ranks when checking for EP loss. EP pool should be heavily influenced by race.

[Kristen Mork]

I encourage you to check out the forthcoming edition of The Guild Companion, which includes a discussion of gaining skills as they are employed.  Not quite what you described, but perhaps of interest nonetheless.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

I will, thanks. I would have submitted mine, but it ended up weighing 15 pages and would rather fit in a rulebook :p