Topic: About RM game line...

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Not necessary?

Levels, experience and devleopment points. They just slow down the game. Grant maneuvers an chance to raise the skill rank based on difficulty.

Modify the way weapon skills are handled.

Category: Weapon family.
Skill: weapon type (sword would work for any kind of sword, saber for any kind of saber, and so son)
Skill spec (one per skill, granting a +10 bonus) for a given weapon.

Drop the gazilion combat skills, reduce them to the minimum (swashbuckling should disappear, fumble range should be [base fumble range - skill rank/10] with a minimum of 1). Revise martial arts (basically, karaté and savate are just styles, their point is still to punch and kick).

Other skills require an overhaul to reduce their number.

[dutch206]

ITA that the Rolemaster experience point system needs an overhaul.  My least favorite part of GM'ing was always having to record every single hit given/received in combat, every single critical given/received, how many miles traveled, etc....  I felt more like an accountant than a GM.  I prefer the HARP experience system.  Far easier, and less note taking.

I am going to have to agree with the "Too many RMSS books" argument, also.  Some races in this book, some in that book....some skills in the main book, some skills in Skill Companion....and which book was that profession in again?? 

I will say this though...I LOVE "Creatures and Monsters" it's like having all three volumes of C&T in one place. <3
Another book I can't live without is "Castles and Ruins".  The random ruin generation tables are a lot of fun to use.

[jdale]

I like the consolidated weapon charts in RMFRP. I also like that they are optional.

I personally think the weapon charts need to be redone, they make too strong an assumption about how much armor slows you down. That gives too much benefit to unarmored combatants, and makes armor of questionable merit unless you have a lot of body development. The maneuver penalties for armor are also too high. The weapon charts also make odd assumptions about the ease of getting hits with different weapons (compare the first hit numbers for martial arts vs broadsword, for example, it's like a hidden +25 for martial arts).

Fumbles should be confirmed with a skill check. The one place I would add a roll. Experts fumble less than neophytes.

Personally I would de-emphasize the moving maneuvers table and limit it to skill attempts where there is a chance of partial success. The static maneuvers is a quicker resolution, and much easier to explain. Moving maneuvers are inelegant and create weird situations where, for example, you try harder (take on a higher difficulty e.g. try to run faster) and achieve less. And I would merge the RR and BAR tables and rolls into a single roll. If it could be resolved on the static maneuvers table, even better. The BAR-RR process is unnecessarily complex and slow. We constantly have to re-explain it.

I would condense the skill list to something between RM1 and RMSR, eliminate skill categories but have more general skills (e.g. one-handed edged) that permit specialization (e.g. broadsword). A more streamlined way of handling related skills.

And I would think about ways to let characters "catch up" on skills they did not start developing from the beginning. For example, many combat maneuvers limit your OB to the lower of your weapon skill or the combat maneuver skill (e.g. weapon styles, TWC). If you pick them up late in your career I think it's too hard to develop them to a level of relevance. It's not easy to switch styles but the system overstates the difficulty, you almost have to plan everything from level 1.

[Fnord]

Hmm...no.  I have play tested a set of rules were eaach weapon is rated for critical range (i.e. target number to acheive A crit, B crit, etc.).  Armor adjust target number(s) for krush/punture and slash.  We abandoned hits delivered by the attack roll and rated weapons for base hits + St mod.

It worked beautifully.  We created the ranges by averaging the existing attack tables then looking at the average spread for each AT catagory.  We desired to exaggerate armor over normal RM protection values.  As an example, AT 6 could be +3P, -1K, +10S

It sounds really interesting. Any chance that you have this system written down? Could you share it and upload it to the Vault?

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Hmm...no.  I have play tested a set of rules were eaach weapon is rated for critical range (i.e. target number to acheive A crit, B crit, etc.).  Armor adjust target number(s) for krush/punture and slash.  We abandoned hits delivered by the attack roll and rated weapons for base hits + St mod.

It worked beautifully.  We created the ranges by averaging the existing attack tables then looking at the average spread for each AT catagory.  We desired to exaggerate armor over normal RM protection values.  As an example, AT 6 could be +3P, -1K, +10S

It sounds really interesting. Any chance that you have this system written down? Could you share it and upload it to the Vault?

Did the same, in a different way (the critical thresholds are fixed by armor, weapons just modify it, some have properties like “blunt trauma” or “armor penetration”). It needs tweaking but does marvel. Too bad, can’t finish it now because I’m too busy.

[JimiSue]

And I would think about ways to let characters "catch up" on skills they did not start developing from the beginning... If you pick them up late in your career I think it's too hard to develop them to a level of relevance. It's not easy to switch styles but the system overstates the difficulty, you almost have to plan everything from level 1.

I do something like this in my games (which are Space Master, but use the same mechanics). For most skills that have a specialisation breakdown, the PC can develop a general skill, which is good for the first 10 skill ranks, but once they have developed that broad knowledge base, then allow them to split into specialisations. These specialist skills don't qualify for stat modifier or level bonus, but can be added directly onto the general skill bonus. It works particularly well for technical, engineering and science type skills, but I've also adopted it for things like driving and piloting. I think there are too many skills for a limited DP pool - even fairly specialist characters can have trouble becoming an expert in relevant areas of their specialisation.

I don't do this for weapon skills though, mainly because I've already done an architecture for similar skill ranks (e.g. if you develop a skill rank in 10mm medium pistol (this being Space Master) I allow 1/2 similarity for weapons in the same specific category - which in this case would be all other 1H projectiles, 1/4 similarity to weapons of the same general type - which would extend this out to mini versions of projectiles, shotguns, and 2H projectiles, and also to weapons of the same size in the other broad group, this being 1H energy pistols, and 1/8 similarity one step further, here being fully automatic projectiles, support projectiles, 2H energy and mini energy). It's a lot of book-keeping but since I put it all onto Excel (which handles this kind of thing very well), it's suddenly become much easier.

This means that someone who is level 10 and has 20 skill ranks in, say, a laser rifle for a +70 skill rank bonus, could pick up a blaster rifle, and attack with a +50 bonus (well actually 25 since he's unskilled) but it does mean that he could quite easily switch his preferred weapon if he notices that the Imperial trooper happened to be carrying a +20 blaster rifle or something.

[JimiSue]

And a separate thing on skill listing - in SpaMCo 1 there are a few skills missed off the list at the end of S in the alphabetical list - e.g. Surveillance, Subduing, Strategic Targeting... sometimes we can take a guess on what a skill does, but it would be nice to have some idea I am yet to come up with a thought on what Strategic Targeting does, since we have Targeting to add to the OB if you get a chance to aim properly, and Sniping to add to the critical roll (as Ambush). Any suggestions appreciated

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Let me add Power points to my list. Just hit the exhaustion points pool.

[Witchking20k]

When I run HERO I use the Endurance Pool to power spells.  It works really well and makes keeping track of END worth while.

[rdanhenry]

And a separate thing on skill listing - in SpaMCo 1 there are a few skills missed off the list at the end of S in the alphabetical list - e.g. Surveillance, Subduing, Strategic Targeting... sometimes we can take a guess on what a skill does, but it would be nice to have some idea I am yet to come up with a thought on what Strategic Targeting does, since we have Targeting to add to the OB if you get a chance to aim properly, and Sniping to add to the critical roll (as Ambush). Any suggestions appreciated

Strategic Targeting = Targeting or Ambush for heavy weapons (like ship-to-ship weapons)?

[JimiSue]

Strategic Targeting = Targeting or Ambush for heavy weapons (like ship-to-ship weapons)?

Good thought, there is Mounted Weapons Ambush for the ambish part of that, but I can't see anything for the targeting part. Although couldn't you just use targeting?? However, this sparked me to check which skill category it fell into, but quickly became an effort to find it at all. It's not in SpaMCo 1's complete listing, it's not on the skill cost chart either. It isn't in the Player's book, and it's not in RMC2's listing either. So unless it's in RMC 3-7, I may have just made that skill up and I'm going quietly mad.

Pardon me while I gibber in a corner somewhere.

[Marc R]

Strategic targeting is in my database as being ambush for crew operated weapons. I don't see a book reference, and it's in the combined RM/SM skill list, so I can't narrow down the official source. Something in the back of my mind says it's in the Arms Companion, but I could be mistaken.

[yammahoper]

I use targeting skill to off set range penalties.  It typically requires one shot a round at 100% act.  Sniping could then mod the crit.

[rdanhenry]

Ah, Arms Companion I have to hand... in Arms Companion, there is a Strategic Targeting skill, but it is for hitting a specific part of the body and is used with the hit-location rules also in ArmsCo. It is for called shots, but uses a different mechanism than the standard crit tables and Ambush.

[Marc R]

Lovely, perhaps 2 skills out there of the same name, or perhaps my DB is just flat wrong. Good to know the back of my brain is still working.

[giulio.trimarco]

Wow, what a discussio has flourished.
Well, I love to discuss about RPG so I will add some contributions 

In generale I've identified in RM these areas where I'd like to see a revision/update/overhaul:

Weapons tables: I'd love to see removed the mobility from them and only account for meterial protection.
Armour materials: RM has been created when very few resources were available about real armours, their protections etc. Remove the concept of armour set to add armor materials. AT from 1 to 20 could simply be armour stacking. Padding (AT6) + Chain (AT 10) = AT16. Someone can argue that chain without padding is worse than nothing
Critical tables: IMHO critical tables should stick more on the five degrees of injury, removing random dispatching. An A or B critical should not kill. They should be wounds.
Breakage rules: simplify them
Foumble: should be in accord to the skill level of the fighter.
Two weapons fighting: More integrated in the basic mechanics.
OB/DB, dodge, parrys and shields: you can be William the Marshal with a sword and Joe Dead with a spear. Combat is a skill developed in a broad manner. You gain principles, grow in the art and then, specialize. In short specific weapons should give a fraction of OB, a couple of skill should be the backbone of fighting.
Ambush and special skills: I'd like see these skills removed and integrated in basic mechanics, without exception.
Profession bonuses: removed, since the skill profression account for specialization. In case mark even more the skill progression to characterize even more the profession (the I like very much)
Round and action resolution: simplify, unify, clarify. A more user friendly, practical, action resolution. I've never well seen the % of activity.
Initiative: I'd like to see more skill based initiative. In combat initiative is less tied to agility, quickness and equipment weight than to fighting experience.
Spells and spell points: too much spells, perhaps too powerful and with too many spells points available (at least in RMSS). Too quick to launch speels. Use endurance to track fatigue, just make that a skill. There is always the argument (nights spents talking about this with my old group) about permanent stone walls created from tin air amidst cities...
Skill as caps: We've found developing skills that function mainly as as "caps" to others skills are a little frustrating.
Body development: In RMSS you can train to level that... well, simply too much.
Exaustion: Even here a little semplification could be used.

[Witchking20k]

I wonder if making Exhaustion affect concussion hits might be interesting.  Hits are not really how you die in RM and are relatively easily gained and lost.

[intothatdarkness]

I actually like Profession bonuses, but I've also totally overhauled them. They're now allocated by players and not based on skill categories (which led to some very bizarre situations).

As for Ambush...overhauled that, too. I prefer having things like that as a specialized skill rather than being factored into rules generically.

[JimiSue]

Stuff.

I disagree with a lot of that. I like the complexity of RM. If I want a simple less realistic game I... play a simpler and less realistic game. Ambush (and indeed other special skills) definitely should stay skills - if something is a learnable characteristic, it should be a skill and not a mechanic.

I do agree though on fumbles - definitely should be affected by skill of the user, and also in two weapon fighting. A player of mine was super keen on that idea until he read up on the rules and in the end didn't bother.

Also don't think fighting skills should be reduced as arms users are already at a huge DP advantage against pure spell users who hav eto pay DP through the nose for their spell lists. I do think though that they should be able to train certain skills to give them special abilities - e.g. the chance to increase bleeding hits from criticals, or add stun results, or maneuver penalties.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

Stuff.

I disagree with a lot of that. I like the complexity of RM. If I want a simple less realistic game I... play a simpler and less realistic game. Ambush (and indeed other special skills) definitely should stay skills - if something is a learnable characteristic, it should be a skill and not a mechanic.

Just for this: in armed combat, RM ambush, that is the ability to aim for vital points, is learned in 5 minutes. 10 if you are a slow learner. It’s not a skill, it’s not even something remotely difficult : cranium, eyes, mouth, neck, behind the collarbone, armpits, kidneys, heart, brachial and femoral arteries, groin. The end. A 8 year old can learn to kill by suprise in a matter of seconds.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the way RM offers a rich gaming experience. But this experience does not gain anything from a ton of combat skills (I mean, we already get tetraplegic dragons, foes melted into pools of goo and the unholy 66 critical result that make heads fly higher than Sony profits over the corpse of Whitney Houston). It profits from a single fact: you can level up to 50 without drawing blood if you choose so, just using social, medical or lore skills. I’d rather see the game streamline combat, reduce the number of skills dedicated to this activity and expand on the amazing character diversity it allows. A game were you have the choice to go on a rampage and kill everything in sight, lure everybody with illusions, bard/houri (the later being also a fun way to make other players’ faces turn red) your way through opposition or just ask nicely with mad social skills to reach your goals is great. More options, the better.

Another suggestion, that would go along the removal of levels and dps: drop professions, create a handful of vocations (arms, stealth, lore, wild, crafts), make the ability to wield magic a talent and let players build their roles from those.