Topic: "Willing" vs Treachery and U Spells

[Marc R]

IMHO there are a couple of things;
1) the targets have to be willing
2) the targets have to know that there is a small chance of failure, ie a teleport error
3) the targets aura has to know that the teleport area is safe. By that I mean even if the caster knows he will be safe at the targets area the other teleporters aura has to know it is going to be safe. example the teleport caster wants to teleport himself and others back to his tower 50' in the air. He will be safe as he has some magic that will aid is his descent. The other targets IMHO "aura" should know that this is dangerous and automatically not go.
  3a) This prevents evil trust, mind domination, friend spells from bypassing the safe guards of the spell.


MDC

This seems an awful lot to put on the aura. . .like a caster can teleport themselves into an unexpected danger (like, I set your house on fire while you were out, so now you teleport back into an inferno). . .the caster's aura will not bounce out of such a dangerous teleport, why a target's. . . .

I've never been 100% happy with that "omniscient aura" concept for a lot of related reasons.

[markc]

This seems an awful lot to put on the aura. . .like a caster can teleport themselves into an unexpected danger (like, I set your house on fire while you were out, so now you teleport back into an inferno). . .the caster's aura will not bounce out of such a dangerous teleport, why a target's. . . .

I've never been 100% happy with that "omniscient aura" concept for a lot of related reasons.

 I agree but the alternative is/might be a teleeport(er) being mind controlled to teleport the teleport(es) into a instant kill if it is done right. 
  BTW, I have not done this to a party when I GM but I have often had players want to flirt with vary dangerous people/powers and often get burned or the entire party gets burned by a single players overconfidence or delusions or grandeur.


 IMHO, I would like to see a way to get around this but I can also understand if it does not. Aura can do a lot of things and IMHO it is one of those things that should be decide/determined for each game setting.
MDC

[Marc R]

In response to the risks caused by having casters around, depending on them, having to trust them, the stress of having to trust them and hoping it worked out. . .a guy I played with a lot coined the phrase "The only good caster, is a dead caster."

[rdanhenry]

Yes, if you trust a spell-caster, he can teleport you somewhere dangerous.

If you trust a non-spell-caster, he can slip a poisoned dagger between your ribs while you sleep. Or poison your food. Or cut the rope as you climb...

The problem isn't in spell-casting. It's in trusting people.

One thing I would allow with regard to Teleport is "I agree if the caster comes too". This isn't an ironclad guarantee of safety, but it does seem a reasonable precaution that is within reasonable limits for "aura awareness".

[RandalThor]

I agree but the alternative is/might be a teleeport(er) being mind controlled to teleport the teleport(es) into a instant kill if it is done right. 

Well, if done right.... But even then there is no such thing as an "instant kill" - without GM fiat. Example: One of the players I was running a while ago killed a Thraxx with one shot, but it still wasn't an instant kill; because even though the Thraxx succeeded in it's stealth check, the character got an amazing result on his Alertness/Sense Ambush (I forget which one I used - it has been several years), and he was able to sense it in time to get a normal Initiative check, beating the Thraxx by about 10+ points. He shot, got like a 300+ attack roll, the crit roll was like 90-something of a G or an H (he had a blaster, this being my crossover game) crit level. One shot, one kill, but there were several points along the way that could have screwed it up.

The same goes for the Suggestion/Charming/Magically or Mentally Controlling someone to let you teleport them 500' in the air, only to fall and die. There were tactics used, that very likely encompassed several rolls; from spell casting checks to resistance rolls, all of which have to go in favor of the individual trying to kill someone with a teleport spell.

Just as easily you can say that someone under any kind of magical compulsion is unable to be classified as "willing" - they have to be convinced the old fashioned way: by being lied to. (Of course, the magician doing the teleport spell could be being tricked as well.)

[providence13]

There is an aura of hostile intent/activity for invisibility spells..
I don't like the translocation aura knows spell lore either, but if you really want to buy into it, then there is a kind of precedent.

Teleport is a 10th lvl spell (on average). This is the same lvl as Lightning Bolt. If I really wanted you dead, I'd cast Lightning Bolt.

[MariusH]

This is an interresting discussion, and one I've though a bit about. Can you use "Suggestion" to make someone a willing target for your next spell? If I have a prisoner, can I tell him "be willing to be teleported back to my prison, or I'll kill you!"? Of course he can refuse, but can he also choose to be willing?

I'd say yes on the latter, I think. But the first, I guess it depends on the effect of the spell being cast. If it leads to more or less certain death, then probably not. But how about teleporting someone to a prison, or to a ship sailing away from the continent? Suggestion can not make the target do something "completely alien" to him. I think this should apply to what the teleport spell is trying to do, too. If it's "completely alien", he'd not be a willing target, otherwise, he could be "suggested" into being a willing target.

[MariusH]

Oh, and one more thing: U spells work on targets who are "willing or incapable of resistance". When are you incapable of resistance? Are you so when you're unconcious? When you're dead? Even if dead, I think you're capable of resistance against some spells. Your soul is still there, so you'd get a chance to resist against absolution. And if your soul can resist that, I suppose it could also "resist" lifegiving, if it chooses to. But a dead body can hardly be able to resist being teleported. But should an uncouncious person be allowed to "resist" being teleported?

[rdanhenry]

If you're unconscious, I could slit your throat freely, so there's nothing overpowered in letting me cast my Utility spells on you. However, sleeping is another matter: you aren't quite helpless in normal sleep, and an assassin could fail to kill you because you wake in time. The question of sleeping targets should be decided by the GM according to the needs of his campaign.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

I'd agree with rdanhenry: the matter lies in trusting people, not in how powerful a spell would be if you were tricked into willing to be its target. If you trusted me when I gave you food, realizing I tricked you and it was poison after you ate it wouldn't change the fact you're now poisoned. If you trusted me to drive you to a safe area, realizing I betrayed you and drove you into a trap wouldn't change the fact you're now there. It's the same thing with being tricked into agreeing to be teleported in a location different from what you expected. Heck, if we apply that to Spacemaster, if you trusted me when you got into a teleporting device, that I actually tricked you in order to send you elsewhere wouldn't allow you not to be teleported and get back after you've been actually teleported to the destination!
So, there, you trusted and were tricked/duped. Too bad~

[Marc R]

I agree there too. You can kill a helpless person with a casual maneuver, and if they're totally helpless (like KOed) and nobody is trying to stop you and you take your time. . .it's a done deal. (ala "I pull his head up by the hair, set the knife to his neck and saw his head near off." is 10 sec, one round, and done).

The invisibility thing is an attack or violent motion. . .like sprinting, or jumping down a flight of stairs will make you visible. . .to a great extent the violent motion is what does it (like for any attack action) and the fringe cases like a mentalist doing an attack spell on you, the "violent sudden move" of the magic tears the invisibility.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

As for the "aura of hostile intent/activity for invisibility spells", it's an external sign that gives away the invisible person, similar to how your usually shy spellcaster being that day frenetic in trying to get you accept to be teleported, whilst sweating a lot, may gives away that he's trying to trick you. However, if you notwithstanding agree to be teleported, it's not your perception of the spellcaster's "aura of hostile intent" that should allow you not to be teleported where you thought you'd be.

[markc]

  IMHO, there is a problem with the unconscious angle. There are times an unconscious target is not in a safe place or time for you to slit there neck. An example might be in combat where the target is unconscious and the caster teleports the target away to another location. ie good guy go's down in mass combat and bad caster see that, he teleports body to evil lair for later evil things.


MDC 

[Marc R]

That's why I specified that one. . .but if there's no rush or impediment, and nobody is trying to stop the killer, and you are indeed totally helpless (like KOed) you're just dead. . .GM can roll to see if the killer cuts their thumb (fumbles the maneuver) but assuming they're not rushing, it should be a gimmie.

The contrast to teleport is a good one though, in that an unconscious foe in combat, nobody really can interfere. . . .

Then again, caster needs to make a maneuver to teleport, much like they'd need to make a "Killing helpless foe in combat conditions" roll. . .though 2% is a better fail rate than most maneuvers.

[Ecthelion]

This seems an awful lot to put on the aura. . .like a caster can teleport themselves into an unexpected danger (like, I set your house on fire while you were out, so now you teleport back into an inferno). . .the caster's aura will not bounce out of such a dangerous teleport, why a target's. . . .

I've never been 100% happy with that "omniscient aura" concept for a lot of related reasons.

An alternative to that powerful aura concept might to rephrase the spell description in the way it was done in HARP: There it is said that "the target moves to a location" instead of "the caster moves the target to a location" i.e. control of the spell's parameters is transferred to the target. With this change the target's aura does not have to be that powerful and at the same time it prevents abuse of the spell in very simple and IMO elegant way.

[Marc R]

That's where I started out on this train of thought, over here:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=11322.0

[Ecthelion]

Sorry, I missed the link to the other thread. Therefore, please simply regard my answer as an agreement to that train of thought.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

  IMHO, there is a problem with the unconscious angle. There are times an unconscious target is not in a safe place or time for you to slit there neck. An example might be in combat where the target is unconscious and the caster teleports the target away to another location. ie good guy go's down in mass combat and bad caster see that, he teleports body to evil lair for later evil things.

Sure, but, OTOH, an allied caster can teleport him to a safe place so I'd say it's fifty-fifty: if you consider an unconscious person can never consent, then he cannot consent to being teleported to a safe area either. And, really, if the good guy is unconscious, the evil sorcerer can ask his minions to take him to his evil lair as well so I don't think that refusing a spell to work whilst not using it would work just fine is a solution...

[Marc R]

That applies to the "Target picks the location" answer also, no teleporting KOed friends out as cargo.

[MariusH]

But how do you teleport an item, then? Surely, it cannot decide the target location itself? I can see that having the target decide the destinations have some benefits, though. But in my opinion, it alters the spell too much from what I want it to do, so I prefer having the caster decide, and work out what constitutes a "willing target". Teleporting out KOed friends is a major reason for using teleport.