Topic: Are Item or Magic Bonuses to OB usable for Parry?

[Marc R]

My vociferous response to this admitted semantic stems from at the table near fist in the mouths that combat skills/attack spells/etc could not be used/cast to enhance must parry affects as the spells in question were designed to enhance attacks.

The 80's...we were all young and wild.

I've had this issue before also. . .like if Thor has that +50 Magic hammer dad gave him, when he's stunned or must parry, can he say "I put all my +150 skill into parry, so it's just the +50 bonus of the weapon as OB."

Or any of the various buffing spells that specify an OB bonus.

Despite the somewhat confusing terminology of "OB" for both the total bonus before split (OB1), and also for the portion used for offense after split (OB2), we eventually settled on all bonuses and buff effects as applying to OB1, not OB2. . .which fixed the problem above.

I don't think the rules are terribly clear on that point, so I couldn't say if that's RAW, or the house rule fix we put in place to get rid of that particular problem.

[Kristen Mork]

I do to the opposite.  I apply magical bonuses as a bonus to attack, not to OB.  Thus, if you have +150 skill and a +50 hammer, then (when full parrying) your DB increases by 150 and the corresponding "attack" is at +50.  I had trouble accepting that a hardened (e.g., high steel) sword would increase DB.  OTOH, my game rarely involves weapon bonuses larger than +15.

[Marc R]

My justification for the above is mostly pure meta, but to offer a logic in that instance reason, a high steel sword can take a harder impact before breaking and thus could be used for harder (higher impact) parries than a low steel sword.

I will say that the one exception to the above for us was when the bonus was to the roll, not the OB. . .i.e. for certain crit results, or the paladin's "Inspirations" ability, the bonus is not to OB, but to the roll. . .in which case we applied those bonuses to OB2 as that side of the OB is the side where the roll is applying.

[evermasterx]

For me Thor, when fighting with his magical hammer has an OB of 200, that he can split by the rules you are adopting.
The rationale, if you want to find a rationale talking about magical bonus, could be that the hammer somehow tend to move in the right direction to parry or to hit, making it a little bit faster.

[yammahoper]

I believe the RAW does lend to increasing DB, or at least I have never seen rules (that I rememeber ) describing not adding all bonuses to get figured OB, and OB is used for everything

This is a familiar dispute and I see the logic of of both sides.  Yet I am a sucker for easy, and the easiest way is to allow those bonuses to be used to parry with, and most importantly for me, players really like the advantage of superior/magical weapons increasing potential DB.

[markc]

 IIRC in the past it was decided that you can use the OB of material, magical, new design or quality bonuses for OB or DB. One of the factors in the decision was ease of play.
MDC

[Marc R]

I tried looking over the errata and didn't find it, it might be buried away somewhere lost on the forum, or on the old forum, unless you know where that ruling is?

[Cormac Doyle]

Can't remember exactly where the ruling is, but Tim definitely ruled that Magic and material bonuses were considered to be part of the overall OB, and not "bonuses to the Attack", and as such could be transferred to parry.

NB - if you do not do this, then when you split your attack or parry between multiple opponents, the bonuses apply to each action. That would be BAD.

[markc]

I tried looking over the errata and didn't find it, it might be buried away somewhere lost on the forum, or on the old forum, unless you know where that ruling is?

 I remember quite a bit, but the location of a post or topic tends to not make it into my mind. IIRC it was within the last 6 months of last year. But as you did a search then that may not be of much help.


 Some of the reasons besides the multiple attack problem Cormac Doyle point out above were that the "bonus" may or may not have been to hardness but to just be better at applying energy to the target, materials may make the weapon smaller thus easier to maneuver and it gives the player some advantage to be able to do so, ie more heroic. At least I think those were most of the responses for having it be added to the OB stack and not just the OB of the attack.
MDC

[Marc R]

If'n someone doesn't find it, we may just need to rule it again, then put it in the errata so it can be found.

[RandalThor]

I have always gone with the "overall OB" method of using magic/material bonuses. In fact, I never even thought there was another way; you just add up your bonuses to get the total, and use it how you see fit.

[Kristen Mork]

I agree that simply adding to the OB is easiest (and the RAW).  Since we track skills via computer, the added complexity isn't a problem.  However, I'm now thinking that non-magical bonuses should really only effect weapon strength and armor penetration.

[Ecthelion]

For the sake of simplicity we add the bonus to the OB.

[Marc R]

We all add it to the OB, the confusion is OB1 or OB2. . .before, or after the split.

[markc]

You add it before the split.
MDC

[Marc R]

I agree, but the "confusion" I refer to is due to the fact that "OB" refers to both the pre split total, and the post split offensive portion in the rules, so:

For the sake of simplicity we add the bonus to the OB.

Is the answer everyone has in this discussion, regardless of if you add it before or after.

The potential for confusion lies completely in the fact that the rules refer to pre split and post split offensive portion as OB, rather than say calling them "Total Weapon Skill Bonus" before the split, and "Offensive Bonus" after the split.

[markc]

  I agree that the weapon skill total or weapon skill bonus is called simply OB and then you split the number to get your OB and DB for an attack.
  To make things simpler you add the weapon material, magical, etc bonus to the weapon skill total. Just like you would add an special item or equipment to another skill total before any modifiers.


MDC

[pastaav]

I say it is before the split. A possible rationale would be that even tough you are fighting defensively for the moment the attacker need to avoid your sticky object. Increased OB might be from more damage, but that would mirror an attackers reluctance to be hit by the weapon.

[markc]

I can see some problems that Marc was talking about above for example;
 PC A: Stone weapon -30 OB, weapon OB 20
 PC B: Stone weapon -30 OB, weapon OB 50


 In PC A case they have a negative OB of -10 and PC B has an OB of 20. PC A has no OB to shift to DB at all where PC B has what we would consider normal or positive weapon skill value.
 If you allow the stone weapons mod to be added after the weapon mod then PC A can allocate 20 to attack or defense where if it allocated before they can do nothing.


 After thinking about the above example I still say before the ability to split value.
MDC

[Marc R]

The errata does say that if your OB is negative before the split, you may not declare an attack or parry. It's in the FRP errata, but that's generic enough I'd consider it applicable, as a lot of the old RM2 errata just got shifted to the FRP listings so it's over there:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=10602.msg134490#msg134490