Topic: Are low level casters underpowered?

[Marc R]

A first level spellcaster in Rolemaster can boil a cup of water.

An ancient quote by my friend Mike, before RMSS or RMC were written, directed at someone creating a mage for a new RM2 game "If you don't take Spirit Mastery, I'm just going to kill your character every time we meet until you roll up a magician who has it." which summed up his opinion of boiling water vs Sleep V as a magician's targeted first choice of a spell.

Not pushing it, nor even bothering to try to min/max out a caster. . .

RM2
1st level caster will know 2 lists to 10th level.

RMC/X
A 1st level caster will know 10 lists to 3th level.

RMSS/FRP
a 1st level caster will know 10 lists to 3rd level.

Most of the potential nerfing is not in list acquisition, but in PP. . .

RM2
1-3 PP means they can cast up to three 1st level spells

RMC
4-12 PP

RMX
11 PP

RMSS/FRP
22 PP say?

I hardly think the teacup is the only one who will be affected by the average 1st level RM character.

I get that the example is somewhat hyperbole. . .but would only apply to a RAW RM2 magician with no PP tweaks, multipliers or adders, who both had a 90 Em, was so terrified of overcasting they'd never try it, and was willing to risk being killed by Mike for their poor tactical sense in initial spell list selections.

[Elton Robb]

Actually, yes.  But take a look at those low level spells.  They are a lot like cantrips.  *all of them.*   An RM mage will not come into his own until 3rd level at least.

[Marc R]

So as not to delve into the whole of SL, let's just look at Magician Base and Closed Essence, and just look in RMC, the weaker of the two SL choices:

Dispelling Ways
2) Cancel Essence
3) Cancel Mentalism

Gate Mastery
1) Familiar
3) Summons I

Invisible Ways
2) Unseen I

Living Change
1) Shrink Self
2) Enlarge Self

Lofty Bridge
1) Leaping
2) Landing

Rapid Ways
1) Run I
2) Speed I

Shield Mastery
2) Shield
3) Blur

Spell Enhancement
3) Extension I

Spell Reigns
1) Spell Store

Spirit Mastery
1) Sleep V
2) Charm Kind
3) Sleep VII

Earth Law
1) Enchanted Rope
2) Loosen Earth

Fire Law
1) Boil Liquid
2) Warm Solid
3) Woodfires

Ice Law
1) Freeze Liquid
2) Cool Solid
3) Wall of Cold

Light Law
1) Projected Light
2) Shock Bolt I
3) Light I

Water Law
1) Condensation
2) Fog
3) Waterwall

Wind Law
1) Breezes
2) Airwall

You might argue some of these are utility spells, but I would hardly class them all as "cantrips". . .there's an elemental bolt, three wall spells, two mass effect RR sleep spells, Charm Kind, a summons, familiar, and a slew of utility spells that include Speed I that can be quite nasty, but a nice variety of effects. (and ignoring the open lists that offer another variety of effects.)

Pure Casters might "run dry", especially in RM2. . .but their spells are hardly cantrip-like at 1-3 level. And in any version but RAW core book RM2 they could toss at least 2 shock bolts, or 4 sleep spells, in any other version a dozen or dozens of spells per day mixing loads of various effects . .which is more than my fire and forget 1st level AD&D mage could do. . .with his 1 magic missile or sleep spell and then nothing for 24 hours.

I really don't get this angle of reasoning at all.

[markc]

  IMHO, RM casters are underpowered do to the over power of Pure Arms Professions and the lethality of RM Combat.
  IMHO it is only part of what they can do but also it is do to what others can do. What are their opponents? What are their companions able to do? How easy it is to play the profession? What are their DP costs for other skills? etc.

MDC   

[Marc R]

It's a matter of use. . .in a series of combats a fighter could kill 30 goblins (1st level) in a day. . .but a mage can sleep five in the wave of a hand. . .and 30 with 6 castings (assuming they all failed RR of course). . .without the risks involved in RM melee combat.

But the claim I'm rebutting is that a 1st level mage is only handy for making tea once a day, which might have been true in RM2, assuming you had a 90 stat and only 1pp, and for some reason made the absurd choice of Fire Law. . .rather than Spirit Mastery for 1) sleep V or Light Law for 2) Shock Bolt I. . .

If your 1st level mage is only good for boiling tea, unless the GM mandated you to pick Fire law and no other lists, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

[rdanhenry]

Let me quote my RMSS PBP campaign as an example. This is at an "open mic" magic demonstration and I'm using the performance of an NPC in the group because it reads smoother since intent and results aren't posted separately as for PC actions. It is true that Toval Bright Butterfly is towards the high end for 1st level spell-casters in terms of PPs and spells known, although a dedicated min-maxer could surely improve significantly over his abilities. The PC Magician has fewer PPs and spell lists, but he has a +35 Shock Bolt when he can get the spell off. Teshtesh the squirrel is a familiar, another perk you can start with:

"And next we have for your entertainment, The Amazing Teshtesh and his assistant, Toval Bright Butterfly!"

The squirrel comes out first, scampers a bit, looks back and cries, "Come on! It's show time!" (Ishmael, at least, will recognize this as Toval's voice, with a bit of "silly squirrel accent" thrown in.) Teshtesh jumps onto a stump and, at the same time, Toval makes a fifty foot standing jump to land next to the stump. While Toval is not the first (nor will he be the last) to utilize a simple Leaping spell to open his act, the squirrel sells it to the crowd and gets a good laugh as well as applause.

Teshtesh mimics Toval as he casts his next spell, keeping the audience amused. Toval summons a small crow, which lands on the ground next to him. As the Elf concentrates, the crow fetches an acorn and hands it to the squirrel. The crow flies off as the Elf begins casting again, his dramatic casting mimicked again by his fuzzy companion. Nothing appears to happen, but then Toval directs a young Orc boy to throw a stick at him, which is deflected off an unseen barrier. After some more casting, there appears in front of Toval a shield, beautifully painted with the image of a Rainbow Dancer, one of most brilliantly colored butterflies of Kuhara. The Orc lad bounces a small stone off the now visible shielding.

Toval dismisses the shield and casts another spell, this time producing a weird musical droning that seems to come from the stump. As this begins, Teshtesh jumps onto Toval and scampers up to perch on the Elf's head. They go through their casting-together routine again, then Teshtesh gets down, scampers over to where a couple of serving girls are waiting and then back most of the way to Toval. Meanwhile, Toval takes off his tunic, leaving him bare to the waist. There are a few hoots and whistles from the crowd.

The serving girls bear lit candles and drip wax onto Toval, who seems not to notice as he once again casts a spell. Nothing seems to happen and he quietly preps to cast again as he continues to have hot wax dripped over him. On the second casting, a small model of a castle carved of green marble and decorated with flashing gemstones appears before him. The girls leave, Toval picks up his tunic, and Teshtesh jumps back onto the stump to take a bow. With a dramatic flourish of Toval's hand and Teshtesh's tail, the illusions are canceled. The squirrel scampers off and Toval makes a dramatic leap out of the performance area.

[DangerMan]

Nice story RDH! Well written!  I think it shows fairly well that a low level mage is quite potent, but you'd be better of being a bit creative with your magic.

I've never thought of the magician as underpowered pr se, but definetly less lethal and more fragile than his sword wielding companions. IMHO this is what these misconceptions are coming from. Also, at low levels the fighter slaying the goblins get more attention for saving the group than the mage who condensates water in the middle of a desert - even though the mage saves the group form certain death.

Having few hit points, no armour and the choice of sleep or shock bolt for an attack (both of which you have a good chanse of failing unless you stand around like moron contemplating for half a minute) leaves you open for the mocking mentioned above.

Better run for cover when the pup grows up, though...

[rdanhenry]

Of course if the question is "Are low level casters weaker than low level Arms users?" the answer is "Yes", but that's because casters are slower to develop, but more powerful in the long run, a trade-off that maintains a tradition of balancing magic that goes right back to D&D. The only other real options are to nerf magic so it isn't combat-effective (fine for some types of fantasy, but not the majority), simply allow spell-casters to be more powerful from the beginning (which has been tried, with a fair amount of success), or have non-magical character types in name only, allowing them to have reality-breaking powers while calling them something other than magic even though they are (this has also been done, but some games are more honest about abandoning non-magical types than others), and finally, powering technology up to where anyone can run with gear that matches what a mage does without it (most sci-fi setting that rebrand magic as "psionics"). Note that none of these allow actual magic-wielding and mundane characters together in a high fantasy setting in a balanced way.

[Cormac Doyle]

With regard to number of spell lists known:

RMC and RMSS/FRP allow 3 ranks per spell list; but no spell caster who also wants to be able to CAST the spells will develop more than 5 lists (the costs double if you develop more than that)

Plus ... it actually costs!

pure spell user = 3/3/3 for base lists

Therefore 5 lists @ 3rd level = 45 dp (90 for a semi) ... 10 lists @ 3rd level would equate to 90dps not counting the cost increases; that's serious house-rule territory

lets assume 1 rank in PPD = 4 dp (8 for a semi)

lets assume 1 rank in read runes and one rank in attunement/use items/staves&wands = 6 (c. 12 for a semi)

That has you at 55 dp already.

The average "non-min/maxed" character will only have 65-70 dp at first level ... thats either one more spell list to 3rd level, or a couple of ranks split between riding/observation/climbing/swimming/tracking/diplomacy/directed spells/dagger/etc.

However, at 3 ranks in 5 lists every level, you still get ...

L1 - 5 lists @ 3rd
L2 - 10 lists (all base) @ 3rd
L4 - all base @ 6
L6 - all base @ 9
L8 - all base @ 12
L10 - all base @ 15
L12 - all base @ 18
L13 - 4 base @ 20; 6 base @ 18; 1 closed @ 3
L14 - 7 base @ 20; 3 base @ 18; 2 closed @ 3
L15 - all base @ 20; 2 closed @ 6
etc ...

[Marc R]

RMC 2/*, 30 DP on lists in 0 level, 30 DP in 1st. 10 to 3rd.

True, the SS/FRP from above would be 2nd level and 5 lists to 3rd at 1st.

Due to holes on the RMC side lists it's like 20 spells likely. . .and almost definitely 15 in SS/FRP.

Even from first level you should be worth more than a cup of tea. . .and with your selection of "cantrips" be able to play a useful role. . . .

[hal_s]

Well, to be fair, it's more like several gallons of water. I'm sure that the people the magician are traveling with appreciate the hot meal when they can't light a fire because they don't want to give away their location to the enemy.

Seriously, I don't think that RM spellcasters are, in general, underpowered, esepcially if you give them a bonus 10 or so PP to start instead of just the 1 to 2 PP per level and you start everyone at higher than 1st level. I think that low level HARP spellcasters are overpowerd and that healing in RM is underpowered relative to other magic.

[Marc R]

Are you using just the 1989 (or earlier) RM books, and none of the companions? RM2 once you got out of the core books into the companions, RMSS, RMC or RMX all addressed the low starting PPs issue. . .like the core RMX rule is 10+(realm stat bonus/10 rounding up) = starting PP. . .usually 11 PP to start.

The spell selection is a lot better than that. . .why would you pick Fire Law as your first list as a magician. . . .That list comes far more in handy later. Even back in the early RM2 days in a combat heavy game and only grabbing 1 list a level Spirit Mastery in level 0 and Light Law in level 1 was fairly standard. (That projected light flashlight was real handy too).

The example of the 1st level mage with Fire Law boiling a pot of tea strikes me as "If I make all the weakest possible choices in character generation, I find myself limited in what I can accomplish.". . .well, yeah. . .if you select "Fluffy weapons" as your W1, and pump 4 ranks into Feather Duster by level 1, your fighter is likely going to be over matched by most non ticklish opponents too.

With more realistic choices made, the spells are not cantrip like, and the PP issue with the 1989 version of RM has been addressed in any number of angles, patches, changes and updates.

The healing issue isn't really underpowered, it's just that things are not metered in hits, so repeated applications of a 1st level cure light wounds are not sufficient to fix any level of injury. . . .depending on which books you use, you could be raised from the dead when all that's left of you is a tiny scrap of your flesh. . .the combat/injury system is intentionally scary. . .you are supposed to fear combat. . .and not find 1st level people who pull a knife on your 10th level character amusing in the least. . .if low level healing magic could fix anything the crit tables could do short of death, there would be less fear of combat than the system intends. . .the magic isn't underpowered, the breakage to repair ratio was intentionally set that way.

[Ecthelion]

RMC and RMSS/FRP allow 3 ranks per spell list; but no spell caster who also wants to be able to CAST the spells will develop more than 5 lists (the costs double if you develop more than that)

RMSS/RMFRP additionally allow Hobby Ranks to be put into spell lists (another 3 possible ranks) plus some Training Packages also include ranks in spell lists, e.g. the Amateur Mage TP. Therefore it is possible to learn one or a few lists to a higher level than only level 3. Learning a list to more than level 6 at 1st level seldom makes sense, though, because casting a spell more than 5 levels higher than the casters own level has quite severe penalties.

[yammahoper]

To answer the question, "Are low level casters underpowered?", my answer is no.

[Cory Magel]

Well, in our games... no, but in how the rules work in RMSS/RMFRP? Yes.

This is because we tend towards the side of powergamers.  Meaning if I was making a character that was the ultimate Fighter I know exactly how to make the most out of the rules.  Some people look down on this, but (IMO) if you are making a character that is supposed to be a great fighter you should create the best fighter you can.

So, we ignore some of the rules.  Actually I would say we 'bend' the rules.  When looking at the most ranks you can take in a level for spells we only limit that number by source.  Meaning if you purchased three ranks, were able to assign two ranks due to race or adolescence or the like, and then the GM allowed you to hobby rank one rank, you could have six ranks in a single list.

This topic is part of why I have constantly worked on ideas for improving arms users at higher level.  At low level the casters are underpowered, but at higher levels the arms users suffer from diminishing returns more than casters and they become the underpowered ones in the end-game.  I've been working up rules to counter the problem (like weapon specialization).

[yammahoper]

even the low level information gathering spells make any spell user a vital part of the party.

if all you do is dungeon crawl, then invest back ground options in daily items and charged items.  a quiver of wands is cheap, so one roll for wealth will do the job.

then there are a host of cheap skills, such as lore and attunement or magical langiages, that can prove very handy.

low level spell users lack a lot of punch, but they have plenty of ability.

[Ecthelion]

Personally I like the bit lower power of spell users during the first few levels because they tend to be more powerful than non-spell users at higher levels. So it's kind of an investment which pays out later. Also IMO it fits nicely with common literature where often the most powerful individuals are of the spell wielding type. Therefore I prefer an RPG system (like Rolemaster) where spell users are more powerful than non-spell users at later levels. To even this out IMO they should have less power than non-spell users in the beginning - and that's just what the RM system is like. Of course this must not mean that non-spell users become useless at higher levels. But I think in RM they don't do so.

[munchy]

I agree with Ecthelion, they should be less powerful in the starting levels as they tend to be way more powerful than the fighter-types later on.

[boawk]

I found this perspective informative:

http://flamingtales.blogspot.com/2010/10/tyranny-of-magic-missile.html

Skip to mid-page to "The tyranny of magic missile"

[Marc R]

I definitely agree with that sentiment. . .my comments above re sleep and shock bolt are only to say "If offensive power is the sole measure, these are not cantrips." Back in the day when an RM caster usually had 1 spell/day Mike certainly felt Sleep was the way to go (and in AD&D 1st-2nd editions, mike would say the same thing about a Magic User memorizing magic missile rather than sleep as their one spell of the day.)

IMO the most potentially powerful spell listed above for a magician of low level would be "Charm Kind" (I'd likely say the same about the Charm Person in yea olde AD&D). . .

Overall a selection of any five of the above lists to 3rd level would offer a wide variety of fun and useful things to do as a caster.