Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => RMC/RM2 => Topic started by: Cpt Tiberius J. Krik on January 02, 2017, 02:49:45 PM
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I'm looking for a new rpg to GM for our group. I really enjoyed MERP with all the crit tables and Move/Maneuver charts.
It doesn't look like RMU is out any time soon, so I've narrowed it down to either RMC or RMSS. But, being new to Rolemaster (I played MERP way back in the day and not that often), I'm not sure which to buy.
For my part, I like crunch as long as it's logical crunch, I'm looking for a system to use with my low magic 13th century Britain setting, and I have a quite big bug bear of errata.
Any advice on which I should go for?
Thank you
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RMC would be the easiest to roll into based upon your previous MERP experience.
Couple that with RMC also having the RMC I companion updated and possessing the Druid class, it will be a kewl profession to have in your world.
RMSS is nicer with tables for each Skill Category(see School of Hard Knocks book) so adjudicating skills is easier, but going from +5s down to +3s and +2s for character creation can be a mind*&^( for character creation.
That and greed took over when they started splitting everything up from Chapters and still calling them full books(really pointing the finger at RMFRP than RMSS - admittedly, Spell Law was going for $60+ in the RMSS days).
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Thanks for the advice Majyk
I just downloaded the previews of RMC (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/88652/Rolemaster-Classic-Character-Law?term=rolemaster+classic&test_epoch=0) and RMSS (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/91995/Rolemaster-Fantasy-Role-Playing) and what little I've seen, I think I much prefer the layout of RMSS.
No doubt there are supplements for it, but is the above RMSS complete, with character creation, combat and magic?
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Thanks for the advice Majyk
I just downloaded the previews of RMC (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/88652/Rolemaster-Classic-Character-Law?term=rolemaster+classic&test_epoch=0) and RMSS (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/91995/Rolemaster-Fantasy-Role-Playing) and what little I've seen, I think I much prefer the layout of RMSS.
No doubt there are supplements for it, but is the above RMSS complete, with character creation, combat and magic?
Up until 10th level, you do get quite a bit(but lots is left out race and class-wise and in Character Law), but this was the RMFRP product that RMSS was separated into its component parts...the way to tell(mostly) is the insignia in the top left corner of the books.
Check out the bottom scroll that shows what other people also bought and it will give you an idea of the massive amount of books you'll need...
I will agree that it was better laid out...
If possible, see if you can sneak old RMSS books(they usually had a black bar at the top of their books that mentioned they were RMSS or Rolemaster Standard System):
https://www.google.ca/search?q=RMSS+books&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibrsXuu6TRAhVDwWMKHYISCPcQ_AUICCgB&biw=1920&bih=869 (https://www.google.ca/search?q=RMSS+books&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibrsXuu6TRAhVDwWMKHYISCPcQ_AUICCgB&biw=1920&bih=869)
EDIT: However, re:supporting ICE, you can indeed run entire character creation, with spells and monsters in the single Core book for RMFRP.
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Thank you Majyk
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Is this the Rolemaster Standard System: RM? (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/91995/Rolemaster-Fantasy-Role-Playing)
I'm asking because I listed it in the original post but I'm not sure it is.
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Is this the Rolemaster Standard System: RM? (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/91995/Rolemaster-Fantasy-Role-Playing)
I'm asking because I listed it in the original post but I'm not sure it is.
My understanding is it's not exactly the same system, but RMSS and RMFRP are compatible to the same extent that RM2/RMC are. Two sets of stats are provided in new supplements, one for RMC/RM2 and the second for RMSS/RMFRP.
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We are RM2 fans in my group. We played RMC, which is similar, but there are enough differences between the two, and preferred to stick with RM2. We tried RMSS and bought a few of the books in print and never really fell in love with the system. There are some nice improvements that we did like, but when weighed against the amount of money we had already invested in RM2 and the supplements, we never made the jump to RMSS. We still play RM2 some 30+ years later. The amount of Companions and supplemental material RM2 is fantastic and it should be easily converted into RMSS. I've never tried to so perhaps the revered elders in the forum can add to this?
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I've decided to go with RMC until RMU is released.
Thanks all for the feedback
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Good Choice :)
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Is there an errata list for Character Law, and the other books as well?
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RMC looks closer to MERP combat-step wise (good and bad). I think they are from a similar time period.
Don't get RMX since it's no longer supported. That was my mistake when I followed old advice found in another forum.
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I'm more on the RMSS side. In terms of books it depends on what you want. With RMFRP core book (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/91995/Rolemaster-Fantasy-Role-Playing) you have everything you need for a couple of professions up to lvl. 10, just like you were used to with MERP. If you want more professions you'd need Character Law (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/92343/RMFRP-Character-Law), if you want all the spells to higher levels and for the new professions you'd need indeed three Spell Law books (of Channeling (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/92006/Spell-Law-Of-Channeling), of Essence (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/92007/Spell-Law-Of-Essence) and of Mentalism (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/92008/Spell-Law-Of-Mentalism)). And if you want more details for the weapons then you'd need Arms Law (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/95668/RMFRP-1999-Arms-Law).
So it's indeed more books you'd require if you go the RMSS/RMFRP path with all professions and all spells. So if budget is your constraint, then go for RMC. I personally think that RMSS, with the similiar skills rules, Power Point Development (PP Dev) and Body Development progressions per race, PP Dev as separate skill etc., is an improvement over the older RM2/RMC rules. But the rules for similiar skills, implemented via rank development for a skill category (e.g. Athletic - Gymnastics plus development for the individual skills (e.g. Climbing) in conjunction with the increased list of skills leads to more time that is required for character creation. Again, if you don't want the level of detail, then go for RMC. Otherwise I'd suggest to go for RMSS/RMFRP.
Just my 2 cents
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...Power Point Development (PP Dev) and Body Development progressions per race, PP Dev as separate skill etc.,
Just my 2 cents
Power Point Development as a separate skill IS part of RMC. It is now part of Character Law.
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RMC,
I have played Rolemaster since the first edition. I love the system and as time goes by have increased the actual rules used, while lowering the apparent rules to the players, things function in the background using my pc to do rolls and calculations breaking everything down to a few quick rolls for the players. They have no idea how many rules are in use, but have commented on how amazing the gaming has become.
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RMC,
I have played Rolemaster since the first edition. I love the system and as time goes by have increased the actual rules used, while lowering the apparent rules to the players, things function in the background using my pc to do rolls and calculations breaking everything down to a few quick rolls for the players. They have no idea how many rules are in use, but have commented on how amazing the gaming has become.
What makes RMC particularly interesting is the fact that with RMC the rules simply are not there to be added. It is just the Character/Spell/Arms Laws, Creatures & Treasures and Companion I and if you are lucky the Combat Companion and that is your lot. You don't have the rules/professions/skills bloat. I am of course completely biased.
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Doesn't rolling on the critical hit charts become a pain during combat? How frequently are they used?
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Doesn't rolling on the critical hit charts become a pain during combat? How frequently are they used?
The RM critical charts are the highlight of combat.
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Doesn't rolling on the critical hit charts become a pain during combat? How frequently are they used?
Often, but they are dramatic rather than tedious. If you want to save time, either use software or give each player a copy of the applicable critical tables for their attacks so they can look them up rather than putting it on the GM to look up everything themself.
On the more general question, personally I prefer RMSS, but if you intend to eventually switch to RMU, I think RMC's character generation rules are more similar to RMU's than RMSS's are. RMSS splits skill development between skills and categories, and adds training packages, neither of which are the case in RMC or RMU.
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Hate to say it, but I created an excel sheet that does all of the lookups for me, I can either enter a number for it to look up or have the sheet do the rolls and immediately provide the lookup.
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I can really relate to this thread. I've played RM since 1982, going through RM1, RM2, and then shifting to RMSS when I last ran a campaign in the late 1990s. I'm now playing in a campaign using a totally different system (can we use names here? It sounds like math binder...) and as that campaign wraps up, it looks like I'll be the next GM.
I'm really stoked about this, as I get to pull out 20 years' worth of campaign material I have boxed up. And I was really stoked to discover that ICE had reincarnated and is putting out new material.
I quickly found myself facing the question of whether to use RM2, RMSS, or try RMU. I hate to say it, but the discussions on the forums quickly took RMU off the list. I think my group would disband rather than learn the whole system, and I have too many old home-brew rules (and campaign material I want to use) that I would have to port over.
So it came down to RM2 or RMSS. I've opted for RM2, even creating a new character creation process, to get the simplest start-up for my players. I had my college-age son, who plays tons or RPGs, try rolling a character in the RM2 rules, and he immediately threw up his hands over the process. I know I'd lose at least 2 players in our group with that reaction, so RM2, it is.
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It is a bit of work, and if your players are willing to skip the rolls, create a character out of the computer, make or download the program. The players then just do skills. Alternatively, give all stats a value of 70 with only the primes getting the minimum 90's or being rolled for with no result lower than 90 accepted, or roll a d10 plus 90. it makes things interesting.
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I remember creating characters in MERP wasn't all that bad. Is RMC similar, more involved?
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It is a bit of work, and if your players are willing to skip the rolls, create a character out of the computer, make or download the program. The players then just do skills. Alternatively, give all stats a value of 70 with only the primes getting the minimum 90's or being rolled for with no result lower than 90 accepted, or roll a d10 plus 90. it makes things interesting.
I've ended up with a system that starts from bonuses, letting each player assign 40 points of bonus across stats with +10s on prime reqs, and all in increments of +5. (Had you ever considered that the only stat actually used during play is CO, for HP to death? No other temp or potential stat really matters after generation.) But yes, getting to the skills as quickly as possible will really keep the players focused on characters, not tables and stats and cross-referencing.
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Yes, the only time the stat roll matters after creation is at level advancement (if you use the rules for stat improvement), and then stats fall quite often in my experience.
That system you have is an interesting idea....
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I've been arguing that we should just skip rolling percentile stats and instead roll the stat bonuses directly for a while now. But I do understand why some people remain attached to percentile stats, even if they just add needless complication.
For my campaigns, we now just roll stat bonuses directly and skip the percentile stats. We just roll 3d10 - 15, with gives numbers in the range of -12 to +15 for stat bonuses.
We also don't use potentials. Instead, every other level, characters get a few points to boost up whatever stat bonuses they choose.
Together, eliminating the percentile stats and the hassle of calculating potentials and changing temporaries every level greatly reduces the complexity of building and levelling characters, especially in a point-buy system.
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Ahhh, see I avoided that by writing a character sheet that allows me to auto calculate stat bonuses and temp stat level increases automatically. I drive people crazy with it, but that sheet, plus the other sheets that I use allow me to automate 95% of the game making play fast and seamless. I use rules now that I had never considered because of how slow and cumbersome the game became. Now it is merely a click of a mouse button with all of the results displayed in front of me in less than a second.
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Most of my automation tools were made for a PBeM game I was running, and occasionally dust off. I created random encounter generators that created instant NPC's for me to throw at players with enough detail that they were believable, but not too much to make them cumbersome. I even had a player divert from the main plot line to follow up with a random encounter because he thought "there is too much detail for this to be random"
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Ahhh, see I avoided that by writing a character sheet that allows me to auto calculate stat bonuses and temp stat level increases automatically. I drive people crazy with it, but that sheet, plus the other sheets that I use allow me to automate 95% of the game making play fast and seamless. I use rules now that I had never considered because of how slow and cumbersome the game became. Now it is merely a click of a mouse button with all of the results displayed in front of me in less than a second.
Sounds like a useful sheet! You might want to post it on these forums (in the downloads section), for others to benefit from, if you haven't already.
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I
We also don't use potentials. Instead, every other level, characters get a few points to boost up whatever stat bonuses they choose.
Together, eliminating the percentile stats and the hassle of calculating potentials and changing temporaries every level greatly reduces the complexity of building and levelling characters, especially in a point-buy system.
I give the 40 bonus points at the start, and then each stat bonus has a chance to increase when the character levels up. The chance is high for a -5 (about 37%), and drops quickly as the starting bonus increases (it's 1% to go from +20 to +25.) I know it means most characters will have a lot of +20s by 10th level, but I'll deal with that as they get there. And it'll apply to enemies, too.
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RMC,
I have played Rolemaster since the first edition. I love the system and as time goes by have increased the actual rules used, while lowering the apparent rules to the players, things function in the background using my pc to do rolls and calculations breaking everything down to a few quick rolls for the players. They have no idea how many rules are in use, but have commented on how amazing the gaming has become.
I think this is a big key to a "successful" RM(abc) experience. There are tons of rules/optional rules that can be employed and can seem overwhelming to new players in particular, but also to a GM. If the GM just sets out the environment and states clearly yes you can to that, you can do this but you need that, etc, then the players don't really notice what rules are being used or how many. The trouble is if you have a rules-lawyer in your group who wants to argue every minutiae that arises, but you are still the GM and have final say. Listen intently then say no. LOL
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Doesn't rolling on the critical hit charts become a pain during combat? How frequently are they used?
The RM critical charts are the highlight of combat.
Some could argue that they are the best part! ;D I love seeing what crits there are and what happens to a "...poor fool" who has "...been reduced to a pool of jelly. Get a spatula."
One of our GM's took the books away from us because we were reading all the crits and spoiling the surprise.
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The Crits were my first joy in Rolemaster. The details provided helped add colour to otherwise 6 hits, 10 hits, ok he dies combat.
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I remember creating characters in MERP wasn't all that bad. Is RMC similar, more involved?
I bought RM2 box set 30 years ago when I was playing MERP. I tried to make a character once or twice. It seems like it took 4 times longer than MERP to figure out the stats, skills, background skills & stuff, and gear. That was manually done using paper character sheets. If I tried it again I'd guess that it would be at least 2 hours for me depending on how many companion books consulted.
Nowdays I think there are spreadsheets to speed up the process.
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If RMFRP is an all in one book (I'm not really interested in other optional books right now), perhaps I need to take a look at that.
Is this the latest RMFRP offering: Here (http://www.rpgnow.com/product/91995/Rolemaster-Fantasy-Role-Playing)
EDIT: Scratch that. RMFRP requires about 3 or 4 more books if I want the full range of spells. Think I'll stick with RMC
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Yes, that's the core RMFRP book and it can stand alone. It contains 9 professions, 5 races, summary stats (no descriptions) for maybe 100 creatures, spell lists up to level 10, and condensed attack tables (e.g. there is a table for one-handed edged weapons with modifiers for specific weapons). You can play with just this book. All the other books add more options but are not required.
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Yes, that's the core RMFRP book and it can stand alone. It contains 9 professions, 5 races, summary stats (no descriptions) for maybe 100 creatures, spell lists up to level 10, and condensed attack tables (e.g. there is a table for one-handed edged weapons with modifiers for specific weapons). You can play with just this book. All the other books add more options but are not required.
Oh, that changes things again.
But, 300+ skills? Part of me wants to run away, whilst the other part of me wants to jump right in!
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Both versions clock in at around £50 for the necessary books (that I want). So that doesn't help me make a decision.
Which is the easiest to play as far as understanding rules is concerned?
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Both versions clock in at around £50 for the necessary books (that I want). So that doesn't help me make a decision.
Which is the easiest to play as far as understanding rules is concerned?
I believe in actual play they are pretty well identical. This is even more true of you are sticking to just the core books. The most significant difference is in character generation with RMFRP having far more detailed race and skill rules. It will take longer and be more involved to create an RMFRP character than an RMC character. The most common criticism of RMFRP/RMSS is that it requires a far greater level of bookkeeping.
Even in RMC a typical character sheet can run to many pages if you give the players copies of their spell lists, a page for their skills, a page for the development points and skills being learned and so on.
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As Peter mentioned in actual play both game versions are fairly identical. From my experience character creation takes longer with RMSS/RMFRP than with RM2/RMC. I would also agree that the character record sheet will normally have more pages in RMSS/RMFRP, but the sheets I used always summarized the most important information on one page, which was then the most important one for me.
As I wrote before, if you don't want the increased level of detail that RMFRP/RMSS offers, then go for RMC. Otherwise I'd suggest to go for RMSS/RMFRP. There is no point in investing more time into character creation if you don't want the additional skills and similiar skills rules.
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Thank you for the advice
Which edition is this: Ebay Listing (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rolemaster-Role-playing-game-/112255289284?hash=item1a22efc7c4:g:CEUAAOSwZQRYaSag)
Also, any reason I've stopped being notified of replies to threads I've asked notification for? I'm not aware that I've changed anything.
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That's RM2. It's the version that was re-organized and re-edited into RMC. I believe the rules are very similar.
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Thank you jdale
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The biggest difference in play, in my opinion, is with skill resolution. In RM2 you have partial success at 76+ and success at 101+
In RMC you have a different table structure with partial success at 76+, near success at 91+ and success not until 111+. It has a massive impact in play at lower levels.
RMC is superior to RM2.
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Just bought the RMC pdf.
Looking forward to delving in. One thing though, no bookmarks? Tsk tsk tsk
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RMC is superior to RM2.
WHAT?!?!??! :confused:
That must be a typo. Maybe he meant to say "RMC-I" or "RMC-II" so on. It's the Companions make it greater! LOL
OK, in all fairness, we never went into RMC. We had a couple of players buy a book to check it out but we didn't adopt anything into the RM2 campaigns we did and none of us (on a college student's income) wanted to invest a bunch of money into RMC when it was so similar to RM2. I had a player grab a book when I ran my campaign a couple of summers ago and there were enough differences that it messed up a lot of things with the 7 other players and their PC's and stats. It was frustrating because he is a rules lawyer and was arguing RMC rules when 7 other players were all going by RM2 rules.
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RMC is superior to RM2.
WHAT?!?!??! :confused:
That must be a typo. Maybe he meant to say "RMC-I" or "RMC-II" so on. It's the Companions make it greater! LOL
OK, in all fairness, we never went into RMC. We had a couple of players buy a book to check it out but we didn't adopt anything into the RM2 campaigns we did and none of us (on a college student's income) wanted to invest a bunch of money into RMC when it was so similar to RM2. I had a player grab a book when I ran my campaign a couple of summers ago and there were enough differences that it messed up a lot of things with the 7 other players and their PC's and stats. It was frustrating because he is a rules lawyer and was arguing RMC rules when 7 other players were all going by RM2 rules.
I played RM2 from the start right up until a couple of years ago. I introduced a new GM to RM and of course you cannot buy RM2 books, not if you need a complete set of rules to run a game. He bought RMC and I noticed the differences so I bought RMC as well in PDF. If you have both side by side, the way that options or rules explanations from many of the companions have been integrated into the core books whilst still being RM2 at heart does actually make it a superior system unless RM2 is your one true love, in which case nothing would ever come close.
I suppose RMC is 'RM2 fixed' as opposed to 'RM2 patched' which is what you get with the stack of companions.
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I suppose RMC is 'RM2 fixed' as opposed to 'RM2 patched' which is what you get with the stack of companions.
I would GLADLY buy RMC-VIII if it was released! ;D I love the Companions.
I know I never gave RMC a full chance even though I've heard plenty of great things about it. I can see about borrowing the book my friend purchased and start looking through it but I know he has only one book from RMC.
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I suppose RMC is 'RM2 fixed' as opposed to 'RM2 patched' which is what you get with the stack of companions.
I would GLADLY buy RMC-VIII if it was released! ;D I love the Companions.
I know I never gave RMC a full chance even though I've heard plenty of great things about it. I can see about borrowing the book my friend purchased and start looking through it but I know he has only one book from RMC.
I don't think there is much point in moving from RM2 to RMC if you know all the RM2 rules and already have the RM2 books. If I was to move system again it would be to RMU when finished although I am chomping at the bit to run a HARP game based upon an Alien craft (mothership) crash landing on a HARP Fantasy world. A sort of HARP Independency Day.
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What would be the main differences between RMC and RM2? I ask purely out of curiosity; I'm an RM2 and now RMU player.
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Static action resolution is based upon Eleventy One+ for success not 101+.
RMC has a really nice themed static action resolution table that is a bit like the skill resolution tables in in RMU where the partial/near/success results are themed to the skill.
The Combat Round is not phases but percentage action. Optional rules like spears being used 1 handed are rolled into the core rules.
The books are slightly better organised, the best single change being the index of optional rules at the front of every book.
There are not that many earth shattering changes, it is more polished and integrated and the net effect of RM2 + bolt-on companions.
Evolution rather than revolution.
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Ah, thanks Peter. I have always wondered what the big changes were.
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I don't know as if there would be much of a point to moving from RM2 to RMC provided you already have the RM2 books you want and are used to (and possibly customized) it.
Just FYI, we used RM1/2 with 2nd Ed AD&D, then went to MERP, then went to RMSS.
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I don't know as if there would be much of a point to moving from RM2 to RMC provided you already have the RM2 books you want and are used to (and possibly customized) it.
Just FYI, we used RM1/2 with 2nd Ed AD&D, then went to MERP, then went to RMSS.
I agree, having played both, I only made the commitment to RMC as I was initially supporting a new GM.
I also at that time wanted to play a RAW campaign as some of our group's house rules had been created decades previously by a GM known for not actually reading the rules and as an enthusiastic house ruler. Some of his creations were accepted as core rules by some of us as we had never questioned them. I did question them and the need for them. I chose the RMC version to be the RAW ruleset as it was a better set of core books.
Finally I am now playing a minimal ruleset without levels, without professions, without experience and stripped back skill set but under the hood it is RMC.
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Is there an errata listing for RMC? I've looked but can't find anything.
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There are typos, but no list that I am aware of. For example, the RMC static maneuver chart on page 139 has +2 for knowing what realm the spell is (for runes and attunement). In prior editions, this was a +20.
I suggest starting a new thread asking for errata if you cannot find one.
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I've bought the RMC Character Law pdf and I'm considering buying the others.
Does anyone know if I am allowed to go to the local printer shop in town and have it printed out and coil bound or is that a breach of copyright infringement?
Thanks all.
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Yes, you can do that as long as it is a single copy for personal use.
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Brilliant
Thank you Peter
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Finally I am now playing a minimal ruleset without levels, without professions, without experience and stripped back skill set but under the hood it is RMC.
I'd considered picking up your document about this from DriveThru a few times, just got it now. I always liked the idea for "no-profession" characters.
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Thanks. That will be completely revamped to work with RMU. In fact the discussion about that is about to start on the blog.