Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: DangerMan on August 23, 2011, 07:58:20 AM
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I bet most of us have seen the movie(s) called 300, depicting the battle of Thermopylae. Here a small amout of elite soldiers take a stand against impossible odds, using a narrow mountain pass to their advantage.
Would such a strategy work in RM? What sort of composition of PC / NPC (lvls / professions) would it take?
We recently decided not to test it, in a small cave, playing the Palantir quest (MERP), using RMSS/FRPP. Im thinking the odds of recieving a critical / odds of it being deadly make for poor chanses. However, some smart players, with the right OB/DB/lvl advantage and some clever ideas might pull it trough?
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Setting aside the film ... you are aware that the "300" only counted the Spartans? The actual army included close to 6000 "slaves" who fought along side the Spartans.
(Also for historical record ... after previous Spartan battles that ended more successfully, the Slaves that had demonstrated their combat prowess most successfully would be hansomly rewarded ... by being EXECUTED!!! The Spartans were always deathly afraid of a revolution by their slaves who outnumbered them c. 10:1 ... so if there was a large contingent of battle-hardened slaves, that spelled certain doom !)
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As to the strategy ... once you add in the "slaves", the Spartans certainly did have sufficient numbers to close off a small choke point for an extended period of time (but as is recorded in history - once they were flanked, they were wiped out to a man).
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But if we're talking only whats displayed in the film, I believe that RM rules could be used to justify some of the maneuvers.
I don't have much time, heading to work, but here's a quick rundown.
1. Cover: Interlocking shields could actually provide Full hard cover for those inside and pretty good Partial cover for those on the outer edge of the turtle formation.
Or, there is a pretty good rule in a RoCo about adding the DB of shields if 2-3 guys have them in a line, against that facing.
2. Massive combat skills: The portrayal in the movie shows warriors that excel in combat. They always seem to know where an enemy is within their combat reach. Sit-Aware Combat, Two-handed Combat, Shield Bash, Reverse stroke (to add OB/DB to rear attacks).
You could also use Reverse stroke to add OB to rear attacks.
Pretty good Tactics as well. The entire group gets an OB bonus.
Awesome Adrenals from SD and even Power Attacks, for some.
Then there Stun relief and skills to lower crits from attacks..
These may be obvious to everyone but just some thoughts.
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A group of high level fighters with shields and spears - that allow for attacks from behind the frontline without the wielder of the spear being target could in RM be able to do what wee see in the movie. The frontline would need to parry a lot and fight defensively whereas the second line could be as offensive as allowed by missile fire. As Cormac Doyle pointed out - it's all a matter of avoiding beeing outflanked.
In the movie we see unarmored Spartans fighting of the hordes of Xerxes. In RM this might prove difficult without any armor but if you allow for adrenal defence to be used with spears and shields then maybe. I think the historic Spartans would've worn armor :P
also using CC or other options for arms use may modify this situation.
This is considering that there be only fighters involved. If we add other classes as Clerics or Magicians - to just one side - this makes it even more likely to succeed.
The Romans fought a combined army of Pontics and Armenians numbering an estimated million with 50.000 and massacred them.
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I think using the MAC or CC with RMSS would be a good start and from there you could modify some of the abilities for Combat Styles to be more inclusive of the Spartan style of combat.
MDC
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The Romans fought a combined army of Pontics and Armenians numbering an estimated million with 50.000 and massacred them.
Which battle was this?
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Interlocking full shields = +25DB, no position bonuses for the enemy. Rear ranks push forward ranks, meaning various criticals around losing position can probably be ignored. AT18 + metal helmet is decent. Long weapon tends to give initiative bonus. Rear ranks of enemy soldiers pushing their fellows into you probably gives you a bonus to your OB.
Interestingly, many ancient battles were massacres. Armies would basically push each other for a couple hours until one side broke, and then the real killing began. This was one of the differences of the Greek phalanx: it had the tendency to actually kill large numbers of foes on first contact, which was extremely demoralizing.
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Yep ... but a fixed formation battle (which is how the spartans survived for so long) looks boring on TV, so the film had the spartans "breaking" on first combat.
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I say: No. All the historical information aside, RM is deadlier than RL. Also, I believe that shields in RM (barring some special "maneuver" in CC) aren't as effective in RM as they are in RL. In RM it is very silly to try and take on opponents that out number you 2, 3, or 4-to-1, not mention what it was there - even with a "choke-point".
Unless, you all are level 30+ and the opponents are 1st level. You might be able to last a while then.
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I also think that there might be some info in War Law to help you out but as I have not had my soda yet I am a little fuzzy on just that it is. But trained troops with a good battle plan generally defeat trained troops with a poor battle plan.
MDC
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In RM it is very silly to try and take on opponents that out number you 2, 3, or 4-to-1, not mention what it was there - even with a "choke-point".
Unless, you all are level 30+ and the opponents are 1st level. You might be able to last a while then.
It is certainly seldom a good tactics to challenges two or more opponents in RM. But from my experience a 10th combat-oriented character with e.g. +15 equipment or so is able to win against two or three NPCs of level 1-3 with normal equipment, as long as he can avoid being flanked or getting attacked from the rear. We sometimes had such fights against typical orcs from the ICE modules and it was not really a problem. We are power-gamers though, with characters capable of lasting in combat. But even in groups with more standard characters it should be possible IMO to challenge more than one opponent at once well before reaching 30th level.
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@ Ynglaur: I do not recall the name. It was commanded by Lucculus in his attampt to march on Parthia. The project watered out before reaching it's destination due to politics and intrigue.
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300 is a great movie and one of my favourites!
I think that the first problem is that in RM you cannot use a shield and a polearm, but if you are GM ( and GM can change the rules XD)and can permit it form background;i think that phalanx strategy will be a good tactis with "second line fighting skill", this skill must be developed by all spartans , the line in front will use shield bash defensively versus incoming enemies while the seond line will attack without being engaged with great advantage.
Then you can add some cover as Ynglaur was saying.
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Faustized;
What is XD?
Thanks
MDC
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I would totally allow someone to use a shield and a spear. There is a historical precedence, IIRC.
One handed Edge-Spear or javelin would cover it for me.
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Faustized;
What is XD?
Thanks
MDC
I think it's an impromptu smiley, like ;D
If it helps, I always found it amusing that Windows XP was basically Windows :P
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It is good to keep in mind that the movie 300 was based on the comic book 300, more so than real life. :)
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Faustized;
What is XD?
Thanks
MDC
I think it's an impromptu smiley, like ;D
If it helps, I always found it amusing that Windows XP was basically Windows :P
Thanks, a lot I forget the old way of doing smiles as I never used them. I am not a big social media fan but I can see the use in bis a lot.
Yes when you say Windows you are tec. referring to the old dos version or visual dos version as I like to call it. And all of the big changes are behind the screen, so to speak.
Thanks
MDC
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We are power-gamers though, with characters capable of lasting in combat. But even in groups with more standard characters it should be possible IMO to challenge more than one opponent at once well before reaching 30th level.
I want to play in your games! I am sick of running a low-level/weak character. To be fair, I did have a 7th level fighter take on 2 orcs at once. Of course, I was very sneaky, got the jump on them, and it was still a tough fight - but fun.
But in the instance of 300, in RM it would be nigh-impossible.
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Setting aside the film ... you are aware that the "300" only counted the Spartans? The actual army included close to 6000 "slaves" who fought along side the Spartans.
What's your source for this statement? I browsed through Wikipedia and they say Herodotus didn't give the number of the slaves present at the battle of Thermopylae, so it must be someone else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae
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Hi guys... I use positional advantage all the time in my campaign. the idea isn't to take on an army, the idea is to limit your enemies opportunities to hit you. If you enter an area where you are outnumbered.... simply backing up to a choke point is perfect strategy. If you can hold the chokepoint, your party can maintain numerical superiority to the enemies who are physically able to engage. This is perfect when dealing with animal inteligence or less, average inteligence will know to "push" through... Hi intelligence will not follow, and even try to find another way to flank.
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I also think that the Armsmaster Base Lists in the RMSS/FRP Ment Comp would be of a huge help as the can create barriers for your men to attack through and prevent incoming attacks.
Maybe even have a magic item that contains the spell you need to defend the area and give you a huge advantage.
some other things that might help are anything that helps hide your troops; illusions, pits, Armsmaster spell's, flight, etc spells that increase the movement of your troops and things that inhibit the enemies movements or forces them to go where you want them to go; pits, illusions, walls, armsmaster spells, traps, etc.
Does that help?
MDC
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ahahahah
Faustized;
What is XD?
Thanks
MDC
I think it's an impromptu smiley, like
You are right , and ,now that i notice it, for this one XD there is no corrisponding smile ... so XD
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I also think that the Armsmaster Base Lists in the RMSS/FRP Ment Comp would be of a huge help as the can create barriers for your men to attack through and prevent incoming attacks.
Maybe even have a magic item that contains the spell you need to defend the area and give you a huge advantage.
some other things that might help are anything that helps hide your troops; illusions, pits, Armsmaster spell's, flight, etc spells that increase the movement of your troops and things that inhibit the enemies movements or forces them to go where you want them to go; pits, illusions, walls, armsmaster spells, traps, etc.
Does that help?
MDC
I love the Armsmaster. It also has a spell that will allow you to negate advantages that the Spartans had (Choke point ans all that): Rapid Deployment (I+). It allows you to instantly transport a number of your "enlisted" men a specific distance, like Long Door only for your followers. So, you can transport them behind the enemy force. Very cool.
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RM rules wise, 300 tenth level fighters will be a nasty nut to crack for 30,000 1st level fighters, terrain allowing.
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RM rules wise, 300 tenth level fighters will be a nasty nut to crack for 30,000 1st level fighters, terrain allowing.
Possibly, but I think that the terrain would have to be seriously against the 1st level army - like it being the castle that blocked the mountain pass in the AD&D adventure, The Sentinel. Forcing the enemy to come at the gate on a 10' wide path, one side of which is a cliff face up, the other side a cliff face down (a few hundred feet). And where a couple score defenders maximum will be fighting at any one time, the rest can be in back-up and resting - because even if you have them at a choke hold, if your guys can't rest, they will get worn down by simple exhaustion until a kitten could practically kill them.
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AD&D adventure, The Sentinel.
Oops. I meant UK3 The Gauntlet, the second part of the series....Fun series, starts out as a murder mystery. (If I remember right.)
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30.000 first level fighters... Let's say 20.000 of them use missile weapons. Sure, many will be firing over a distance giving them a severe penalty, and they probably don't have more than 30 or so in OB, but: 20.000 rolls gives 1.000 open-ended. Oh, but the distance penalty, low OB and defenders DB makes sure that's still not enough. But it's also 50 double-openended rolls. I reckon THOSE might do some decent damage.
And in melee: Even if you whack one of the 1st lvl dudes every round, expect at least one or two to be able to get in an attack on you every round. They may need an open-ended roll to get a decent crit (but not double-openended), and even then, it's probably only around 20-25% chance that the crit will take you out. But that still gives them 1-2 % chance of getting a killing blow every round. That means the 300 10th level guys will lose 3-6 people every round - if they are all in melee. Sure, they will be killing off 300 1st lvl guys every round in the start, but as their number diminish, their kills will too, and the army of punies will eventually emerge victorious.
You'll definitely need extremely advantageous terrain to stand a chance against such an army, and even then, it'll be hard. With a fortress, sure. With magic, I guess maybe, but still you'd need decent terrain advantages.
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Yeah, I don't think there has a been a general born/made that would believe they could win such a scenario. It would be pretty-much like (I believe) it was for the real "300" - a delaying tactic. With no hope of living, not to mention winning. Barring some very weird circumstances. (Like aliens coming down to harvest the big army for slaves... or a god stopping by to say DIE! :o)
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RM rules wise, 300 tenth level fighters will be a nasty nut to crack for 30,000 1st level fighters, terrain allowing.
I quite agree, especially if those 300 were capable of supporting themselves in a dense, ordered formation, which is historically how Spartans fought.
The advantage of numbers matters for little in melee if the defenders are not pushed back by the initial impetus of the charge or out are flanked by the superior force. It then becomes a matter of maintaining discipline, stamina and the willingness to die for a cause or ones honor or ones comrades.
I imagine as soon as the front ranks of persians went down, following persians would be not only trying to avoid being struck by the spartans longer weapons but trying to maintain thier footing whilst avoiding thier own fallen comrades and being buffeted by those who were behind them. True criticals may have due to the sheer mass of attacks... but imagine exactly how many fumbles would happen in such a situation... and it wouldn't just be tripping on an imaginary tortoise.
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Yeah, I don't think there has a been a general born/made that would believe they could win such a scenario.
Perhaps except for perhaps Alexander the Great. If only the numbers were different but the quality of troops and tactics were the same on both sides I might agree. Generally it is the "belief" of the leader and the troops belief in that leader that allows such things to happen.
"I do not fear an army of lions, if they are led by a lamb.
I do fear an army of sheep, if they are led by a lion."
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Yeah, I don't think there has a been a general born/made that would believe they could win such a scenario.
Perhaps except for perhaps Alexander the Great. If only the numbers were different but the quality of troops and tactics were the same on both sides I might agree. Generally it is the "belief" of the leader and the troops belief in that leader that allows such things to happen.
"I do not fear an army of lions, if they are led by a lamb.
I do fear an army of sheep, if they are led by a lion."
Yeah, there is no accounting for psychosis... ;)
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IMHO time for someone to make a War Law game with options from the MAC and/or RMC CC and see just what happens.
One other thing you have to think of is the moral factor, in that when part of your huge army gets repulsed by a much smaller force that should be crushed by almost any attack can be very disheartening and can crush moral. So IMHO (again) it is not just X rolls vs. Y foes and Y rolls vs opponents of Y but some reduced amount of that modified by terrain, formation, moral, training, etc.
I also think it is a save assumption that the 300 picked a spot where not all of the opposing army could attack or even a majority of them could attack with missile weapons. So you would have a greatly reduced number of attacks before taking into account any weather conditions or other such missile factors.
Again I think it would be a very interesting War Law game to run a number of times and see how many times one side one vs the other side.
MDC
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Again I think it would be a very interesting War Law game to run a number of times and see how many times one side one vs the other side.
MDC
Hmmm ;)
Morale failure can ruin a generals day... especially if your army that is mainly composed of levies then sees your elite units getting trounced decides to run rather than fighting. It can also be a little bit of a hinderance when the route of said units rout is directly through the rest of your army.
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"Because Rincewind knew that when the Four rather small and nasty Horsemen of Panic ride out there is a good job done by Misinformation, Rumor and Gossip, but they are as nothing compared to the fourth Horseman, whose name is Denial."
- Terry Pratchett, Interesting Times
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In the end, calling up archers is what did the job, the low hill where the spartans are believed to have made their last stand, metal detectors and ground penetrating radar found a multitude of bronze arrow heads still in the ground, despite the fact that ground had been picked over by memento seekers for 2500 years.
I think the terrain was pretty absurd. . .the defenders did choose it, it was a narrow strip of land along a drop off leading to a turn leading to a pass, with hills to anchor and give the defenders elevated sight-lines on the field. . .which made it hard to mass archers within range, they had to whittle the Spartans down and come around from the far side before they could push them back to the hill, which then allowed the mass of the army to assemble in the area at the base of the hill, bringing that 20,000 archers into range to flood the defenders and end it. . .before they pushed them back, the lay of the ground didn't make it possible to play the obvious card of "Keep them pinned down and bring up ALL the archers." until the end, and then, that ended it.
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Thermopylae was indeed a narrow bottleneck. The Greeks were defeated in the end because the Persians were able to come through another way (having bribed a local to guide them) and attack from both sides. The Greeks learned this in advance (probably from survivors of what guard was on the other pass) and the Spartans sent most of the others home and stayed themselves to make a last stand. Until that time, there were substantially more than "the 300" there, even without counting the Spartan's helots (communal slaves).
As for archers, they likely would have been largely ineffective in indirect volley fire, as the bulk of the Greek forces would have simply locked shields overhead. Their bronze shields would have been quite sufficient to protect them, except for the occasional very lucky shot. The terrain would also have restricted the effectiveness of archers.
One can't even be sure that any given arrowhead found are from that battle, as there were others fought in the same defensible terrain. Given the importance of archers to Persian tactics, it is probably safe to assume that a fair number of them do originate from the Persian invasion battle.
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I imagine as soon as the front ranks of persians went down, following persians would be not only trying to avoid being struck by the spartans longer weapons but trying to maintain thier footing whilst avoiding thier own fallen comrades and being buffeted by those who were behind them. True criticals may have due to the sheer mass of attacks... but imagine exactly how many fumbles would happen in such a situation... and it wouldn't just be tripping on an imaginary tortoise.
Quick! Someone run the numbers: how many imaginary tortoises were present at Thermopylae?
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I imagine as soon as the front ranks of persians went down, following persians would be not only trying to avoid being struck by the spartans longer weapons but trying to maintain thier footing whilst avoiding thier own fallen comrades and being buffeted by those who were behind them. True criticals may have due to the sheer mass of attacks... but imagine exactly how many fumbles would happen in such a situation... and it wouldn't just be tripping on an imaginary tortoise.
Quick! Someone run the numbers: how many imaginary tortoises were present at Thermopylae?
I seem to remember some famous Ancient Greek getting killed by a tortoise being dropped on thier head. Does that count? ;)