Topic: Haste and Automatic weapons

[markc]

 A rule in RMSS AL 94 says that if you have an automatic weapon you can only fire it a specific number of times in combat. This is repeated in the SM:P rule set as well as providing options for attacking with firearms such as single shot, double shot, area fire, suppression fire etc.
 Some think haste should allow you to do two attacks with a firearms and others do not. What do you think?

MDC

[David Johansen]

Well, that's the whole field effect question isn't it?  Is the haste (or any spell or power) a field that includes weapons and armour?  I'm inclined to say yes if the haste is a time manipulation effect.  Otherwise gear that wasn't hasted would face doubled resistance and largely cancel out the advantage of haste.

If it's a state of consciousness from psionics or mentalism I'd lean towards it not affecting the weapons and armour.

[markc]

 I agree that haste effects should not effect weapons even if they did SM:P has rules for continuous fire weapons.
 The other way to go IMO is the way RuneQuest does has has multi-missile. The spell allows the missile to split into multiple projectiles and multiple attack rolls for the attacker.

MDC

[providence13]

I wouldn't mind being Hasted as a 200%Act situation.
I could squeeze of a couple of precise shots.

Otherwise gear that wasn't hasted would face doubled resistance and largely cancel out the advantage of haste.

Yeah, if my automatic weapon was Hasted, I'm nearly positive it would jam/explode in my hand!

[Marc R]

It's just like haste on the rider/driver wouldn't double the speed of a horse or car they ride in. . .but that's really only for a full auto weapon.

I'd still allow essentially double the normal number of aimed shots, or multi round bursts. . ..

consider

M16A2 has a cyclic rate of 800 rounds per minute, that's 133 rounds per. . .em. . .round.

Most clips for an m16 shouldn't be expected to hold 133 rounds. . .so if you held the trigger down on full auto you'd empty a 20 round mag it in less than 2 seconds. Even with a 30 round mag you'd clear it in under 3 sec, and with a 50 round drum clear it in less than 4 sec.

Logically that rule would really only make sense when using something like a belt fed machine-gun or any similar weapon where you could conceivably fire it continuously for a whole 10 second round, then engage in area or suppression fire over the whole round. . .but it never made sense to me that it would have much of an effect on burst fire or single shots. . .even with a 19th century revolver non hasted people could empty the gun easily in 10 seconds. . .more than enough time to pop off a full high capacity magazine semi auto handgun. magazine capacity limits you more than the ROF of the weapon.

But the haste would change that from spray-n-pray into aimed fire, as providence said. That is more than enough to turn a gunfight into Neo-in-the-lobby.

I suspect someone with a pistol in each hand making 4 aimed single shots while moving in and out of cover is bad enough to ruin your day, before you go and toss some bursts into that mix.

[markc]

 Yes there is a statment either in SMP: BL or RMSS AL:FA that says you can simply empty your gun as fast as you can if that is your wish. But controlled fire is another thing and IMO just because you are moving faster then normal IMO does not mean that you can control the firearm any better.

MDC

[Usdrothek]

Yes there is a statment either in SMP: BL or RMSS AL:FA that says you can simply empty your gun as fast as you can if that is your wish. But controlled fire is another thing and IMO just because you are moving faster then normal IMO does not mean that you can control the firearm any better.

MDC

That's rapid fire skill. In SM:P it's Everyman for everyone.

At least being hasted would allow you to reload.

[TerryTee]

First off, I'm not all that familiar with SMP. What is the limit for number of shots pr round? Is it limited to the activity%, or is there a hard limit set somewhere?

But regardless of the max number of shots normally allowed pr round, the question is if Haste will give twice the regular number of shots.
I'm certainly of the opinion that the weapons are capable of fiering much faster then what the character can handle. Thus the limit for number of shots applies to the character and not the weapon (some weapons may actually be too slow and put a mechanical limit to number of shots pr round).

So we have to ask our self why it takes the time it takes to fire a shot in combat.
As described above (and seeming some people seem to agree) it's not a mechanical limit of the weapon. Some components may be:

• Stress
• Threat of being shot at
• Locate and decide upon targets
• Taking cover
• Aiming the weapon
• Squeezing the trigger
• Coping with recoil etc
• Observing the result

The next question becomes which one of these actions becomes faster with Haste.
If Haste gives 200% activity I say it must also speed up the thought process since the character is capable of assessing the situation and react to it without any limit to the number of moving maneuvers. (I know Psion and Spells are not Hasted, but I guess these actions are more than just mental.)

My claim is that the character can think and move twice as fast.

Then we get down to the environment and physics. My assumption is that weapons and equipment is not Hasted, but I also claim it dos not matter most of the time.
In order to shoot in a controlled manner you must control the weapon after the shot. Haste will not change the way the weapon behaves, so the character must spend time coping with the recoil etc. But as far as I can see, recoil and similar effects are ignored in the rules. Here is why I say this:
There may be some special weapons with exceptions, but in general the limit for number of shots pr round are the same for a relatively heavy projectile weapon and a light weapon free from recoil. If recoil was an actual factor the a light weapon would get more shots pr round then a heavy weapon.

In conclusion, IMO:
Haste does not speed up hardware.
Haste lets the character think and act at twice normal speed.
A Hasted character can make twice the number of attacks normally allowed, unless there are specific limits to the weapon.

-Terry

[Marc R]

Terry's point is where I'm thinking too. . .with 10 second time frame for a round, the character, not the weapon, is generally the limiting factor. . .unless we're talking about a muzzle loaded black powder cannon the capacity to think, aim, fire is far more of a limitation factor than the technology is. . .Even with a snap open, single barreled shotgun, the difference of being able to pull off two aimed shots with a re-load between vs a single aimed shot is not going to unduly stress the weapon. . .and anything short of a continuous feed, continuous fire support weapon, the logic issue of gaining no real benefit from the haste due to the fact the weapon isn't sped up doesn't really seem to logically make sense. . .

Even then, as a house rule, I might give a bonus to a hasted character hosing an area down with a machine gun for a full round of suppression or area fire, just by the logic that they traverse the weapon faster and react to enemy motion faster, despite the fact that they are firing just as many bullets downrange as the non hasted gunner using the identical weapon next to them. . .

[Usdrothek]

I think SM:P has auto or continous fire at 90% activity (?).

I do agree with Terry's rationale. That's the way I would go as well.

[markc]

 I see it as the weapon acting on the person and just because the person can react faster he still has to deal with the weapons physics. So the weapon which in SM:P and RMSS: AL:FA says a singe shot is a 30% to 60% activity and a double shot is a 50% to 90% activity; IIRC.
 Remember the hasted person is still bound by the time of 10s he just can react faster he does not bend time.
MDC

[Marc R]

At 100% available activity, firing three single shots at 30%, or two double shots at 50% would seem possible. . .

At 200% available activity, firing three single shots at 60% or two double shots at 90% would also seem possible. . .

Though that stretches the rules a bit.

The hasted person's haste doesn't make them shoot the gun faster, just a lot better, since they devote more activity to each shot in their hyper fast state.

And firing off 3-4 rounds in 10 seconds isn't even crazy fast shooting, those speed range cowboy shooters bullseye targets at 30' real fast. . .in this 40 second clip, he starts moving at 20 sec, firing at 21, is done firing at 37 sec, including a fumble with the shotgun, and in that 17 seconds he:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1BwUJ4--Qw&feature=related

Draws a revolver
Fires the revolver at 5 separate targets for hits (ding ding ding)
holsters the revolver
Draws a lever action rifle
Fires 9 shots (again ding ding ding of hits)
Draws a pump shotgun
Fires 4 single shots with hand reloads (can't hear these hit targets)
Goes to put the shotgun down, gets a warning
reloads and fires a 5th shotgun round
Puts down the shotgun
Draws his other revolver
Fires 5 rounds (ding ding ding ding ding)

That's a heck of a lot more than 200% activity in slightly less than 2 rounds if you break it out in rules mechanics.

Admittedly, this is without people shooting back, firing at targets, with guns perfectly laid out on body and tables with a lot of practice.

RM had always downplayed how fast missile fire happens, IMO to favor melee combat which is more dynamic and less "The orcs get surprise and open fire, before you can close the 50' to get to them they inflict four 22EP attacks."

But I don't think the already fairly anemic ROF challenges the technology, it may be a metagame mechanic thing, but it's not the guns inability to keep up fast firing that would be a limiting factor. . .as is, I think the radically better OBs gained from the greater attention levels are beneficial enough to make a hasted shooter rather scary even playing the rules vanilla as is.

[markc]

 I understand your train of thought but the % activity does not define how often the gun can fire it just defines how much of a penalty you can have to do an action. The RAW says a double shot takes 50% to 90% as well as a fire arm may not make more than one action in the round, ie you only have the options listed by physics. Now the RAW do not reflect RL and if you want to change them that is fine.

MDC

[TerryTee]

a fire arm may not make more than one action in the round

I could not find this one. Where is this stated?
As I said in my first post I was not able to find a limit for the number of shots pr round in SMP.

I've been considering western shooters as well, and LordMiller's example is a good illustration.
Again, this shows that the limit for the number of shots pr round is tied to the human factor, stress and combat situation rather than the physical limitation of fireing a weapon.

Does that mean that a character that is fearless, drugged, berserker etc may shoot more often in a round as well. If he completely ignores the fact that he is in combat and simply treats the enemies as targets, then he would be able to shoot like he would at the gun range.
I don't think I'd rule it this way, but the thought was interesting.

-Terry

[Marc R]

Mark, I concur that the RAW do meta logic against missile fire in general, but I'm not 100% sure on how that rule actually works.

Blaster Law page 18 states:

First of all, it is assumed that all attacks are
aimed. This means that the person firing the attack
has a specific target in mind. If the character is
simply spraying an area, then this is probably a
Suppression Fire action (see Section 2.6.3).
In addition there are only three phases in a
round. This provides an upper limit to the amount
of aimed shots possible in a round.

Which seems to state each of the three phases could be used for an aimed fire action as an upper limit. Perhaps with a separate gun in each of three limbs?

[markc]

Haste and Firearms:
1)   From Arms Law “94”
a)   Page 111 of the same book % uses the same tactical sequence as SM2 does and not the RMSS 3 phase system.
b)   Page 113 section 5.3.6 Haste ; “A hasted character may not fire more than twice a round.” This refers to Firearms and not missile weapons that were given a max ROF of 1 per round.
Conclusion:
a)   The rule above is more up to date than the SM2 rules provided in the PDF or physical book so the Haste rule in the book is valid for SM2 type combat systems.
b)    IHMO: The RM2/SM2 round sequence is designed more for  ease of play and play balance than real life modeling  and trying to adapt it to more than it was designed for will probably cause problems somewhere.
Note 1: This was the info I provided to Terry T in another thread about SM2 Maneuver Actions, IIRC the name.  Also the discussion tended to include some info from SM:P and RMSS so as to help figure out some of the questions.
Note 2: There is an option rules section that talks about firing at more than one target and that target is a specific angle away from the attacker. IMO it should be used with any firearm system.
Note 3: In the SM2 combat sequence they treat the reloading times as all the same for antique weapons and the option rule that give the % for reloading for each type of weapon IMO should always be used to preserve play balance.
2)   Now in SM:P they switched to a 3 phased system that works much differently than the SM2 round sequence system.
a)   They gave specific %’s to firearm actions, unlike in the SM2 book it provides a round sequence reference and  says weapons with a ROF of 2 may fire in Fire Phase A [FP A] and Fire Phase B [FP B] or in one or the other.
b)   The % activity for specific types of firearm maneuvers [single shot, double shot [1 target], Tracking Shot or Spread Burst and Continuous Fire or Aimed Burst] as well as some firearm moving maneuvers of [Rapid Fire, Aimed Rapid Fire and Suppression Fire]. There is a chart on page 20 of SM:P TM:BL that gives the % activity for the various actions. With some of the actions taking a variable amount of time as determined by the GM.

Conclusion: The RMSS and SM:P is closer to RL combat than the SM2/RM2 combat system and allows for 3 Single Shots at 30% each, 2 Double shots at 50% each, 3 Spread Burst or tracking shots at 30% or 2 Continuous Fire or Aimed Burst attacks at 50% each for any 100% action round. All of those attack options are possible but IMO just because you have more time in a round ie Haste it does not mean that you can simply say you can make more attacks in a round, IMO it should go into movement or some other area to keep play balance.


Concluding Conclusion:
  IMO if you are trying to mix the two systems you are going to run into some problems namely the FP A and FP B action segments and how they interact with the % actions given above. IMO you should create a firearm phase to have the actions occur in to prevent any problems and to help players out so there is no confusion as to what modern weapons and archaic weapons systems can do.
  Also as I said above IMHO just because you have more activity % in a round does not simply mean that you can fire a weapon more times. Lord Miller IIRC gave some examples of trick shot artists and fast fire artist that can really put on a show. But those people are the exception to the rule and in a very very small % of any population and IMO to build them into the rule set will cause problems.

MDC

[Marc R]

I thought all along that we were discussing SM:P per the top post.

Conclusion: The RMSS and SM:P is closer to RL combat than the SM2/RM2 combat system and allows for 3 Single Shots at 30% each, 2 Double shots at 50% each, 3 Spread Burst or tracking shots at 30% or 2 Continuous Fire or Aimed Burst attacks at 50% each for any 100% action round. All of those attack options are possible but IMO just because you have more time in a round ie Haste it does not mean that you can simply say you can make more attacks in a round, IMO it should go into movement or some other area to keep play balance.

What I said up in reply #11 was that you wouldn't get more shots, but that:

3 Single Shots at 30% each, 2 Double shots at 50% each, 3 Spread Burst or tracking shots at 30% or 2 Continuous Fire or Aimed Burst attacks at 50% each for any 100% action round.

Would become

3 Single Shots at 60% each, 2 Double shots at 100% each, 3 Spread Burst or tracking shots at 60% or 2 Continuous Fire or Aimed Burst attacks at 100% each for any 200% action round.

Assuming you don't use any of that 200% to move around or reload with. . .the end result is not more bullets, but is still a LOT more dangerous due to the reduction of the scale of the penalties. . .

But, odds are, that it's far more likely a hasted combatant would attack 3 times, since they have enough activity to prevent penalties from piling up, so though the rules don't allow more firing per round, haste would encourage you to max out and take all three attacks, while in the same situation without haste, you'd likely only fire once or twice.

Essentially I agree it doesn't allow more shots, but I do think it encourages you to get out as many as you can, so it will result in more shots.

More actual shots per round would only be possible with a GM who used the house rule of allowing a hasted combatant to take 6 actions, or if you were using some variation of two weapon combat ala pistol in each hand.

[TerryTee]

I was also of the impression you wanted this to be bsed on the SMP rules set and the three phase rounds... But I’m more familiar with the SM2 rules so I’m happy to bring them into the thread.

a)   The rule above is more up to date than the SM2 rules provided in the PDF or physical book so the Haste rule in the book is valid for SM2 type combat systems.

No need to bring RMSS rules into SM2. The RAW are the same in SM2 PB p56 section 13.7.
In fact, the combat round rules in RMSS AL 94 are almost identical to SM2.

b)    IHMO: The RM2/SM2 round sequence is designed more for  ease of play and play balance than real life modeling  and trying to adapt it to more than it was designed for will probably cause problems somewhere.

IMO this is true for most RPGs… People try and try, but the reality is just too damn difficult to model in such a way that seems realistic and playable 

IMO if you are trying to mix the two systems you are going to run into some problems namely the FP A and FP B action segments and how they interact with the % actions given above.

I agree. It might be tempting to add a little here and there from a different system, but there may be consequences to don’t see at the time. Personally I look to other systems when I know there is a hole in the rules (IMO) that needs filling. Playing SM2 it’s natural to look to SMP and various RM systems.

Also as I said above IMHO just because you have more activity % in a round does not simply mean that you can fire a weapon more times. Lord Miller IIRC gave some examples of trick shot artists and fast fire artist that can really put on a show. But those people are the exception to the rule and in a very very small % of any population and IMO to build them into the rule set will cause problems.

Yes, it can be hard to let the rules include the extremes, but IMO a skilled gunner with Haste IS pretty much like those trick shooters.
Again, I believe the limit for number of shots per round is
1)   Mainly a human factor limit and not a weapons limit.
2)   Are put in place for game balance, not for realism (besides, we are talking about Haste , so realism is out the window )

I have not played with it before, but I am strongly inclined to use a house rule to allow a hasted character shoot twice as many shots per round as the regular limit, being SM2 or SM:P.

-Terry

[Marc R]

OTOH I can see some logic behind not allowing two continuous fire attacks for 100% each, like the previous examples of pouring machine gun fire into a doorway for the whole round . . .if you're continuously firing the whole round, you can't do that twice without two weapons.

[Usdrothek]

Again with  continuous fire weapons, its really the time you can hold the beam on the target (representing the activity cost of 50-90%) that is the key factor. Even though a weapon may be able to fire a  continuous beam, it wouldn't be "on" for the entire 10 second round, more like a second or two as you wave it over your target and slice him into BBQ ribs. Even someone devoting the full 90% activity to the shot wouldnt have the beam on the target for an entire round.


Remember a single continuous/automatic fire attack only strikes a single target. I would call firing into a doorway or small area for the entire round the equivalent of suppression fire, striking anyone in/passing through the doorway.  However I would apply a bonus to the attack depending how small the area is.