Topic: Great Balls of Fire

[ZuS]

Before my question, here's a quick summary on Elemental Ball attacks:

1) Caster gets OB(skill), target gets no parry(only missile DB + maneuvers); anyone who knows area attacks in RM should be eyes-wide-open at this point
2) +20 to crit on center target (that's right, OB and +20 on center target)
2) No deflect, yes counterspell
3) No resist

I could come up with a hypothetical face-off, but I don't think there is a need. As unaware targets go, a single unscaled ball from an average lvl 5 caster can pacify a whole unit of fighters or a whole room full of people regardless of their levels/resists, while a scaled ball will have them all dead or pretty damn close in a heartbeat.

So a couple of questions:
1) What exactly is the idea behind making ball spells more effective than bolts against a single target (+20 on center)?
2) OB on ball spells in general - why?

[masque1223]

Before my question, here's a quick summary on Elemental Ball attacks:

So a couple of questions:
1) What exactly is the idea behind making ball spells more effective than bolts against a single target (+20 on center)?

My guess:  It's an area effect spell that takes out a whole bunch of targets (if positioned correctly), and the bonus is because the target is in the most hardcore part of the effect.

2) OB on ball spells in general - why?

Because an offensive spell for a magic-user type is the same as a weapon for a fighter, it's their primary attack method.  I understand having RR's resist things like sleep spells and what not, but magic or not, an elemental ball (or bolt) is a big chunk of energy coming at a target, I see no problem with treating it the same way as a physical attack, because it basically is, if a mightier one, usually. 

You mentioned something about "no resist", which I think is inaccurate.  The target just resists with DB, rather than a RR.

[RandalThor]

A quick fix (if you are looking for one  ) is to assign all ball spells a -20 to their OB. This means that the central target (poor sucker zero) is like the recipient of a bolt spell, but you also get the plus of affecting others nearby. Could still be worth 2 more PP to cast.

[ZuS]

2) OB on ball spells in general - why?

Because an offensive spell for a magic-user type is the same as a weapon for a fighter, it's their primary attack method.  I understand having RR's resist things like sleep spells and what not, but magic or not, an elemental ball (or bolt) is a big chunk of energy coming at a target, I see no problem with treating it the same way as a physical attack, because it basically is, if a mightier one, usually.

There is nothing remotely comparable to a weapon of the fighter in Elemental Ball category and that is not what I ask or have a problem with. I wanted to know why an AOE attack gets OB bonus against all targets, since that would be like a fighter shooting as many arrows off at once as there are enemies in a 10' (or 20') area, which as far as I know is only possible if you are Legolas on speed.

You mentioned something about "no resist", which I think is inaccurate.  The target just resists with DB, rather than a RR.

Missile DB+maneuver is a joke compared to caster OB+roll and you can't parry the elemental attack like you can a missile (albeit with 5/1 or 2/1 OB to DB ratio, depending on talent). On top of that Counterspell does not work at all like Deflect. Suffice it to say that if you depend on Counterspell to consistently provide protection, your ass is playing russian roulette with a sixhshooter and 4 live rounds in the drum, while Deflect always takes OB off you for as much as you scaled it to.
I don't see how I am underestimating any form of resistance on the part of the target - its just no match for the OB+roll of the caster.

A quick fix (if you are looking for one  ) is to assign all ball spells a -20 to their OB. This means that the central target (poor sucker zero) is like the recipient of a bolt spell, but you also get the plus of affecting others nearby. Could still be worth 2 more PP to cast.

Actually, now that you mention 2 more PP cost on the ball (making it a 2 round cast) and the posibillity of a bolt being completely silent compared to a ball blast, I certainly see why you would choose the bolt in many circumstances. I guess my first question is answered.

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

Before my question, here's a quick summary on Elemental Ball attacks:

1) Caster gets OB(skill), target gets no parry(only missile DB + maneuvers); anyone who knows area attacks in RM should be eyes-wide-open at this point
2) +20 to crit on center target (that's right, OB and +20 on center target)
2) No deflect, yes counterspell
3) No resist

I could come up with a hypothetical face-off, but I don't think there is a need. As unaware targets go, a single unscaled ball from an average lvl 5 caster can pacify a whole unit of fighters or a whole room full of people regardless of their levels/resists, while a scaled ball will have them all dead or pretty damn close in a heartbeat.

So a couple of questions:
1) What exactly is the idea behind making ball spells more effective than bolts against a single target (+20 on center)?
2) OB on ball spells in general - why?

Targets of Ball spells get Armor DB, Shield DB, Talents (such as Instinctive Defense), Qu Bonus (if expecting trouble), Cover Bonus, Maneuver Bonuses from Dodge etc, etc.

College of Magics has Elemental Resistance (reducing Elemental crits) and Spell Deflect.

Ball spells are typically 6PP or more which means 2 rounds to cast, unless fast casting which is a further -10 penalty per round reduced.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[Pat]

I agree with all listed above except for Shield DB as this doesn't get included against elemental ball attacks. 

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

I agree with all listed above except for Shield DB as this doesn't get included against elemental ball attacks. 

is that a house rule on your part or have I managed to miss a sentence tucked away somewhere?

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[kreider204]

Hasn't Tim said that (about shields) on several occasions?  Or did I dream that (quite possible ... ).

[jurasketu]

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=8249.msg105759#msg105759

See that thread (you can ignore my posts - just look at the relevant Tim posts).

Robin

[Karizma]

I do quite prefer the "explosion" idea more than the "fill the radius" idea, personally.

[Ecthelion]

So a couple of questions:
1) What exactly is the idea behind making ball spells more effective than bolts against a single target (+20 on center)?

I don't know if the intention really was to make ball spells more effective than bolts against a single target. My assumption is that this was simply overlooked and the effect not so much perceived during playtesting. Mostly the only downside of using a ball spell vs. using a bolt is IMO the increased number of PPs which is necessary to cast. The only other reason which comes to my mind, which sometimes makes using a bolt attractive, is that you won't use a bolt against an enemy which is in melee combat with your comrades, or other cases where the "collateral damage" would need to be considered.

2) OB on ball spells in general - why?

IMO OB on ball spells makes as much sense as OB on bolts. Both are quite similar in that they are elemental energy directed at a given target. And that makes an OB reasonable.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

1) What exactly is the idea behind making ball spells more effective than bolts against a single target (+20 on center)?

This is actually a carry over from HARP's roots (i.e. its cousin, rolemaster), which goes to show that nobody is perfect (i.e. me). 

I like the re-interpretation where the center gets full OB and eerything else -20. Nice suggestion RandalThor, have an idea point.

2) OB on ball spells in general - why?

Because it is an attack spell, and it is used against a character's DB, which can also increase. This way the caster can become more proficient with it as he gainst skill with the spell.


On Shields....

Nick is correct that there is nothing in the rules that says that a shield's DB cannot be used against Ball Attacks.

In the thread that jurasketu pointed out, I point out what the intention was, and my reasoning behind it.

However, since that never made it into the printed rules, it is up to the GM to decide, based on his intrpretation of how a Ball Attack works.

For those who treat it as an exploding wave front, including a shield's DB would be natural.

For those who treated it as a force bubble filling up from the center point, with the elemental material swirling about like water filling a room, then not including a shield's DB is natural.

Neither interpretation is incorrect or wrong.

[RandalThor]

I like the re-interpretation where the center gets full OB and eerything else -20. Nice suggestion RandalThor, have an idea point.

Thank you, I need all of them I can get if I want the Giant Panda!!! (It was one of the few times I actually came up with a rule idea that wasn't in the player's favor.....wait! I get it now! &@$%^$@#^&@#