Topic: Adrenal Defence in Styles per CC

[thrud]

... and may not have a large object in his hand, unless it is part of a weapon kata for that style.

Is this a carryover from the old rules?
In what manner is a style with a martial arts focus different from a style with a weapon focus?

I can see the rules prohibiting the use of heavy weapons but I don't see the reason in the way it's currently written?

I would propose the following correction.
"... and may not have a large object in his hand, unless it is part of the style."

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

It would only be labeled a correction if it were wrong. Just because you disagree with the wording, that doesn't make it wrong.  Now, yes, while the wording is a bit of a hold-over from earlier RM material, but I still fully agree with the sentiment behind it.

The way it is currently written (specifically for Martial Artists - unarmed fighters), a character has to pay extra points to be able to use a weapon with the style. Your suggested change would remove those additional costs.

[thrud]

Yes, I agree with you on that point.
Still wouldn't it be better to increase the cost for Adrenal Defence in styles with weapon focus?
I'm just trying to find a more uniform solution.
Single weapon kata is a 1 point option.
Adrenal Defence is a 4 point option.
Why not make it a 5 point option for weapon styles?

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Weapon users have the Agile Defense that they can use. It also allows them to wear limited amounts of armor.

Adrenal Defense stays mainly for the martial artists officially.

Unofficially - why don't you just take a weapon style, and then add adrenal defense, and then add the weapon kata option (and note that the option is for a SINGLE weapon only, not a weapon group) and say that they work the way you are wanting them to work.

[thrud]

This is actually a tough call.
I like your unofficial option, it's fairly realistic. Looking a Kendo and Kyodo you learn the weapon skill and then the katas (at least in kendo).
Still keeping the Adrenal Defence a Martial arts only option is smart mechanics wise.
Adrenal Defence Maxed out @ Lv 10 -> +DB75
Style OB Maxed out @ Lv 10 -> Somwhere in the OB 90 range not counting level bonus
Adding Defensive Ward to the style with a off hand main gauche +35DB when not attacking. (Martial arts doesn't have the Defensive Ward option)
Parrying 50% with off hand weapon -> +DB30 (inc. -10% for using Adr. def.)

Now we have +DB140 and a +OB80.
This may increase due to better stats and level bonus.

Imagine a min/maxed warrior type PC, an additional +OB40 is very much possible and even more if adding gifts, magical items and so on.
Sure a Lv 10 fighter is supposed to be good but this would be a nightmare in humanoid form.

I really don't know.
I think Adrenal defence should be available to weapon styles as well but the smart thing is not to allow it.

[Dark Schneider]

The meaning is that with heavy objects, you must use the agile option instead the AD option. So for moving as necessary for AD you cannot carry heavy objects.

The exception is for weapons included as kata weapon option, with anyone, so you can use a 2-handed sword and use AD if it is your weapon kata.

And, AD is not only for MA users, as it is typical a warrior not using armor and using its agility to combat. This is a point well corrected in this CC from before, as only swashbuckler had the option to develop AD.

[thrud]

And, AD is not only for MA users, as it is typical a warrior not using armor and using its agility to combat. This is a point well corrected in this CC from before, as only swashbuckler had the option to develop AD.

Dark Schneider> Kata option is only available to martial arts styles. That's what this entire thread is about.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Dark Schneider> Kata option is only available to martial arts styles. That's what this entire thread is about.

Officially, that is correct. However, if you are GM, then you can change that in a House Rule. One thing about Katas though is that they CAN be learned later, they are not restricted to only being gained when the style is built.

One thing to note -- Using a Weapon Kata is NOT the same as using the weapon in its own style. Weapon Katas do not allow you to roll on the Kata weapon's attack table, you still make all attack rolls on the MA attack table. A Kata only allows you to do a little bit of extra damage and to choose whether or not to do an alternative critical (of one less severity - normally) instead of the normal MA critical.

If you are wanting a Swashbuckler type, then Agile Defense is what you would want, not Adrenal Defense. Agile Defense allows for wearing light armor, and for using weapons and/or even a small shield.

From the questions you are asking, it seems that you are more interested in building a Conan type -- the unarmored barbarian warrior who fights with a huge two-handed sword.

Unofficially speaking.....
I would allow a player who wants a Conan type to use a single specific weapon with a combat style that has AdDef for one additional point when building the style. However, I would also restrict it by only allowing half of the AdDef when using other weapons from the same group, just as OB is halved for other weapons in the same group (and no bonus when using any other weapons).

And it goes without saying that picking up a shield or wearing armor would totally negate the AdDef bonus (and no, I would not allow a shield of any type to be considered as a "weapon" for this - period).

If you wanted to be able to use AdDef with a whole group of weapons, then I would double the cost of Adrenal Defense for the style.

[Dark Schneider]

I think Conan uses agile option, but his QU stat is much high, and remember you can use parry that can be interpreted as evade the attack and not only hit between weapons.

I say this because Conan sometimes use armor (usually a light chain mail, the old AT13) that doesn't penalize QU, or leather (AT9 or AT10) because the same (and it allows to use agile too).

So, IMO the AD for MA users mainly is to compensate that they can't use armor in any case, because DP cost and because some MA maneuvers limitation to carry weight.

But, if you want to use AD for anyone, then I see easy to allow kata for any style, and in this case you use the weapon table, but you can use only AD for weapons included in katas, look that this is not free as it increases the DP cost for that style.

Example: our style is for a group of weapons [5 points], let's say long blades, we add AD [4], and as we usually use the long blade, we add weapon kata for long blade [1]. Our style costs 10 points. Now we could add broadsword in kata too for 1 extra points, the style would be 11 points now. etc.etc. adding new weapons to be used with AD including it in kata.
See that if we want to use AD with 2 weapons combo, it is more expensive as it costs [3 points] for any pair.
It is possible for high lvl characters as I see more practical to add options than develop 2 ranks when ranks give us low bonus.

And Conan is a high lvl char 

[thrud]

I must admit, I have a PC idea that I would love to try out...
Loosely based on Renaissance fencing.
A Rapier + Main Gauche style.
No armour Fighter style PC, possibly a Semi? I can't really stand playing a non for very long. Me likes the magic too much.

Maybe we should give it a go? Try it out for a while? What's the worst thing that can happen? Too powerful a fighter? Yaa... that's likely to happen when we have a group consisting of a Archmage, Healer, Nightblade, Ranger, Magician and a Paladin.  

[markc]

I must admit, I have a PC idea that I would love to try out...
Loosely based on Renaissance fencing.
A Rapier + Main Gauche style.
No armour Fighter style PC, possibly a Semi? I can't really stand playing a non for very long. Me likes the magic too much.

Maybe we should give it a go? Try it out for a while? What's the worst thing that can happen? Too powerful a fighter? Yaa... that's likely to happen when we have a group consisting of a Archmage, Healer, Nightblade, Ranger, Magician and a Paladin.  

 Or maybe you could create a specialized spell list based on the PC's fighting style? Maybe something like the Mage Blade list [IIRC] or the Wyrd Bow list I have seen on the Guild Companion. The spells would give you bonuses to the styles maneuvers or maybe allow you to use some maneuvers you would not able to use do to some factor.

MDC

[thrud]

Please give references when you quote spell lists.
There are like a gazillion companions out there...

I do like the Warrior Blade List from RoCo VII, even though there are some wierd elements there.

[Arioch]

I must admit, I have a PC idea that I would love to try out...
Loosely based on Renaissance fencing.
A Rapier + Main Gauche style.
No armour Fighter style PC, possibly a Semi? I can't really stand playing a non for very long. Me likes the magic too much.

What about a Venturer? 

[vroomfogle]

I had long ago got rid of the whole weapon kata concept.   To me, the difference between a monk and fighter is that the monk is an unarmed unarmored fighter.    Weapon Kata is just a way for the martial artist to legally cheat and get weapons thereby bypassing the whole drawback of being a monk in the first place. 

Want to use a weapon?  Learn a weapon.

As such if someone wants to learn a weapon with Adrenal Defense I see no problem with it.

[markc]

Please give references when you quote spell lists.
There are like a gazillion companions out there...

I do like the Warrior Blade List from RoCo VII, even though there are some wierd elements there.

 That is going to be tough as I am not up on my RM2 stuff as much as I used to be. I know they say the Wyrd Bow is based of the Druid Staff list.

 What I was trying to say was just create your own spell list that fits your PC's fighting style. The list can provide bonuses to maneuvers, bonuses to attack, bonuses to defense, leaping attacks, tumbling attacks, adding elemental crits to weapons, etc. Now of course you or your GM will have to balance the new spell list vs. others in the game. In RMSS I would use some of the lists in the Channeling Companion, Essence Compnaion, Fire and Ice, Mentalism [Arms Master] and maybe the a list I think is in The Shades of Darkness.
 If you have the RMSS Spell Law you can also use the Monk base lists as a guide to build your own spell list. Or if your GM does not like the spell list idea then see if he will let you buy spell like abilities as talents. Maybe something like this 6 DP Parting Strike: Upon activation of this ability the combatant may roll to attack another target if he kills his foe. His OB is 75% of his original OB; and his OB by 25% for each additional attack he receives from this ability to a min of 25%. Now I do not know if that is balanced or not for your game as I just wrote it as I was siting here. But after some thought I think a group can come up with some fairly good ideas and with some testing make them balanced. I also think that you could import other games mechanics using this method with a little modification to them so they fit the RM system and your GM's game world.
MDC