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Offline Dirz

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Initiative
« on: July 04, 2008, 12:44:05 PM »
Hi all,
concerning Initaitive in RMC, in Arms Law is stated that initiative is calculated in this way:

2d10 + Quickness Bonus + Modifiers

my question is about the Quickness Bonus.

In the bonus, shall I also consider the racial bonus?

In my group I have 2 half elves, one is a thief, another one is a rogue ... both having a good quickness stat.

THEY ALWAYS WIN INITITATIVE ... no way for 2 humans in my group ... and even for my NPC's!!

one of the humans is a fighter with a QU stat of 75 (not so bad!) ... has got a QU bonus of 5

The other human has got a QU of 93 (he's surelly quick!) ... has got a bonus of 10

The half-elf thief has got a QU bonus of 35!!!!!

how can my human fighter ever win an initiative roll against the half-elf thief???

I was considering the possibility to let my players reroll a dice result of 10 ... it wil not change almost nothing ... but will give the human fighter a chance in a million to win at least once.

my monsters are almost as quick as the humans ... so my half elves, hven't by now ever lost an inistiative roll.

It's not an easy situation to manage ... why shouldn't all my players be half elves? They are starting questioning about it.

Suggestions?

Am I somehow wrong ?

HELP!!!!!!



Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2008, 01:56:55 PM »
Quote
The half-elf thief has got a QU bonus of 35!!!!!

Half-elves only get a +10 to Quickness. So, to get a +35 bonus, he either has a stat of 100 or he has other bonuses to his Quickness.

But the thing is, with a Quickness bonus that high, he is always going to win initiative.

It sounds as if the players of the thief and rogue maximized their characters a bit.


Offline Dirz

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2008, 01:09:38 AM »
Yes they optimized their PC to get a high QU!
But the fact is ... the half-elf rolls 2 dices and gets 2 (the minimum), he has got an initiative of 37
On the other hand, the human fighter rolls 2 dices and gets 20 (the maximum), he has got 25

So the half-elf ALWAYS wins ... being initiative so important in the game, this becomes a little bit unbalancing, don't you agree with me?

Givin the chance of rerolling 10s, could give the human fighter a chance to win the initiative ( a rare chance but at least a chance!)

Even if they would both have the same stat, starting with a +10 for the race is really an unbalancing thing!

on a random spread of 2-20, the half-elf would have a random spread of 12-30

That is the point ... it unbalances the game, quite often

Offline Rasyr-Mjolnir

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2008, 06:26:12 AM »
The problem lies in those players having been allowed to min/max their characters in that way., and not realizing it beforehand.

The most obvious solution to your dilemma is to increase the value of the dice in determining initiative. Change it from 2d10 to 1d100, and now your fighters have a chance of going first.

Another possible solution is allow the fighters in the group the chance to gain a small talent -- Combat Reflexes (which gives a +10 or a +15 to their init rolls -- for 10 or 15 DPs) -- with the explanation that fighters, being better trained for actual combat actually are able to speed up their reaction time through training.

RMC went with 2d10 because it was felt that the dice (and randomness) was too large a factor, and that a character's  own abilities should have a greater impact than the luck of the dice. And yes, it is quite true that faster characters WILL tend to usually go first. That was part of how the init rules were designed.


You have 2 players who min/maxed around that - that does not make the rule the problem. Remember, there are some monsters who get a +50 to initiative (Speed MS/AQ ratings).

Offline Arioch

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2008, 06:39:58 AM »
Another solution comes with styles from CC, using the Bonus to initiative option.
If you're not using CC you could also give a bonus to initiative based on level and profession, like a +X per level to initiative for actions within the specialization of the character's profession. For example fighters could receive a bonus to intiative for all melee actions; magicians a similar bonus for all spell casting actions; thieves for all subterfuge actions, and so on...
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Offline Dirz

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2008, 04:50:09 AM »
You are right Rasyr, they maximized this problem ... but what I'm pointing out is that, even if the human fighter maximized his stats (and tehy did it using the standard rules, not thanks to a divine favour), he will be in great disandvantage against the half elves ... I'm afraid half elves are really too favourite in the game, they get 10 sided dices for HP instead of 8 sided for humans, they can resist a lot to natural diseases, they can see in the dark ... they can rest lesser than a man, they also get a +10 ti initiative due to QU (also a +10 to DB from that stat) and initiative is really VERY important in this rules sistem, and having a random from 12 to 32 whit an avarage of 20 instead of 10 for a man ... why should a player choose anything else than an half-elf? ... anyhow ... I've got a solution, I'll make breeds from men and elves impossibles! ... NO MORE HALF-ELVES IN MY SYSTEM ... in my opinion they area really too cumbersome in the system rules.

Thank you for your help, I was just afraid I was misunderstanding some rules on initiative ... now I know that I don't ... I just have to change the rules somehow.

Tnks

Offline Arioch

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2008, 06:54:29 AM »
why should a player choose anything else than an half-elf?

If players choose their character's race basing their choice only on stats bonuses, then obviously they'll choose the one with what they think are the best bonuses. If this is the basis of their choices remember them that RM is a rpg, not a wargame and that the end of the game is playing the role of a fictional character in a fictional world, not creating the best set of numbers they can get by the rules.

I've got a solution, I'll make breeds from men and elves impossibles! ... NO MORE HALF-ELVES IN MY SYSTEM ... in my opinion they area really too cumbersome in the system rules.

That's could be a solution, but IMHO it woulds simply make palyers choose another race with good stats (high elves, probably). Plus, those who are playing the half-elves may feel tricked by your choice if you force them to change character.
I suggest you to find an in-game solution rather than banning the race. For example:
- make the game less combat-oriented, so that even character not min-maxed for combat have a chance of shining out.
- put slow, large or super-large bosses with stun immunity and a high AT: this will minimize the impact of
winning initiative and should put fighters in advantage towards the others, because fighters tend to wield heavier weapons, capable of doing more damage and with better armor-penetrating power (try fighting a AT20 Huge creature with a shortsword and you'll see what I mean). Plus fighters usually wear heavier armors, so they can withstand more punishment than other PCs.
- remember that half-elves are half a race: they're neither humans nor elves and there will probably be a lot of people who won't like them. In many places they'll probably encounter suspicious people and prejudices. Have elves call the "half-men" and humans calling them by names like "witch-blood" or "pointy-ears". Have tavern-owners refuse to serve them or tell them that the inn is full, when it's clear that the rooms are empty...
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Offline David Johansen

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2008, 01:00:30 PM »
I use the percentile initiative system from the RMSS Arms Law and treat the rolls as open ended.  Yes the elves usually go first, but now and then a slow old orc will get the drop.

Also my players have trouble remembering when to roll 2d10 and d% otherwise.

Offline PiXeL01

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2008, 02:12:57 PM »
In our group we both use a full open-ended d100 as well as add "mental quickness" through the memory, which has been renamed into Eloquence (wasnt that in Comp III or something like that). It entire formular is based upon temporary stats adding racial mods +/-

so Ini: (temp Qu+Me)/2+(racial Qu stat mod)+(racial Me stat mod)+d100.

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Offline Dirz

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2008, 02:32:42 PM »
I use the percentile initiative system from the RMSS Arms Law and treat the rolls as open ended.  Yes the elves usually go first, but now and then a slow old orc will get the drop.

Also my players have trouble remembering when to roll 2d10 and d% otherwise.

How does this sistem works? Arioch, you are right, but I also think that such an advantaged race as half-elves, shoud have dominated any single world ... they are basically the best ... having almost any disadvantage and too many advantages.



Concenring the roleplaying ...

Offline Marc R

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2008, 09:37:32 PM »
A lot depends on what a 101/+30 Qu means in your world. . .here on earth that would be the fastest person alive.

RM2, in core, favored the fast character going first with no roll at all. Only situational mods, no rolling.

Later options and then RMFRP and RMC added in randomness.

d100 + QU bonus made your quickness a signifigant factor, especially if really high. . .but it's possible for the 101 QU +40 Half elf to go last. . .it's biased, but not terribly so.

2d10 + QU bonus made quickness bonus strongly signifigant, but allowed some randomness to take part.

If you beleive that all other factors being equal, the fastest person alive will always go before an average person or the slowest person alive, then 2d10 works. . .keep in mind also that at 2d10 the situational modifiers and spell effects and the like will have a dramatic effect on the results.

If you believe that all other factors being equal, occasionally (rarely) the slowest person alive will go before the fastest person alive, then d100 works (and you can make it open ended if you want to allow for really freak, but low odds results). . .in this situation QU is diminished in it's effect, but then so area situational modifiers and spell effects.

The majority of people will fall into the 0 range (the vast majority into the -5/+5 range). . .with 2d10 the +5 and -5 are signifigantly different. . .using d100 they are barely different. . .+30 is human maximum. . . a +35 is just over the edge into superhumanly fast. . .<shrug>. . .the system is very tweakable, you could go with d100, or if you find that dilutes the effects of QU too much, and you just want to tamp the effect down a bit you can just add in d10s. . .3d10 would make it possible for someone with a +5 to beat a +30 (barely). . .4d10 would make it possible for a +0 to beat a +35. . . .

It's your game, if the way quickness is working is bothering you, it's definitely worth fixing, and there are a lot of possible tweaks, depending on how far you want to push the scales of initiative from deterministic toward random.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2008, 11:44:12 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline markc

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2008, 10:03:12 PM »
Option:
Convert the stat scores to stat scores/5 and add that to the 2d10 roll. So a 35 would become 35/5=7; so 2d10+7. The smallist roll is a 9.
For the human fighter with a bomus of 10;10/5=2 so his roll is 2d10+2. Lowist roll is a 4 but has a good chance to beet the +35 guy as the average is 5.5+5.5=11+2=13. So an average roll by the fighter and a low roll by the thief gives the figher and advantage.

 Also convert the talents to this system but you may want to start the talents higher tha +1. So some iniative talent gives you +2 for 1st level of talent, 2nd level =+3 and 3rd level gives +4 to iniative.

 You may have to play with the talent nunbers a little bit but I think in the end you will like the /5 method.

Good Luck
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Offline Lord Garth

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2008, 10:37:56 AM »
I've recently started using a new initiative system. I use d100 low and open ended and same roll applies to OB, and initative. Plus, OB can be sacrified for Initiative the same way it can be converted to DB. Every 2OB gives yo 1DB. The initiative is positively modified by QU and negatively modified by Action Costs as presented in RMComp X (can't remember the actual number). The underlying assumption is that an expert warrior can decide to go first -> Sacrifice OB for initiative or kill last -> Wait for the other to attack sacrificing OB for DB.

It's just a possible solution.

Offline yammahoper

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2008, 11:28:14 AM »
Yes they optimized their PC to get a high QU!
But the fact is ... the half-elf rolls 2 dices and gets 2 (the minimum), he has got an initiative of 37
On the other hand, the human fighter rolls 2 dices and gets 20 (the maximum), he has got 25

So the half-elf ALWAYS wins ... being initiative so important in the game, this becomes a little bit unbalancing, don't you agree with me?

Givin the chance of rerolling 10s, could give the human fighter a chance to win the initiative ( a rare chance but at least a chance!)

Even if they would both have the same stat, starting with a +10 for the race is really an unbalancing thing!

on a random spread of 2-20, the half-elf would have a random spread of 12-30

That is the point ... it unbalances the game, quite often

Divide the Qu mod by five and use that as the initiative bonus added to the 2d10 roll.  Or, go to d100 plus Qu bonus, plus or minus mods.
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Offline Archangel

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2008, 02:35:18 PM »
When my GM wants to be sneaky and hedge the inish roll (we use the d100+mods) me has us make a general perception roll. If you are concentrating on an opponent or some task you may not notice the Orc coming up behind you with a mace.
 But then he's not a nice guy.  ;)

Offline Skaran

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2008, 03:17:11 PM »
Of course you also need Sense Ambush/Assassin which the GM is supposed to roll in secret if you have those pesky orcs sneaking up on you (I find Kobolds with missile weapons good for this sort of thing). In our games Sense Ambush goes off, but it does not give any information just a sense of impending danger. Assuming the Kobolds/Orcs don't attack immediately the party can put some defences up but don't know what the threat is. If the Sense Ambush fails then put some arrows in them on a surprise round. They have no initiative that round. Then next round roll the initiatives for those not stunned etc. Makes even low level social monsters like Goblins, Kobolds etc something even experienced parties should be wary of. They can make plans too, and don't forget they have all those magic items taken off earlier parties to hit your players group with. (You do pre roll for useful items they can use don't you. ;)
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Offline Winterknight

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2008, 12:48:01 PM »
I third the notion of dividing the stat bonus by 5.
I also prefer the smoothed stat distribution from Companion I. 

Another option is to add the combat level bonus to a base initiative factor, but I would only do this if you plan to keep the full stat bonus, or go with a d100 roll - otherwise level bonus then becomes the overwhelming determinant at high character levels.  Thus, at 10th level, the fighter (assuming standard rules) would have a 30 base initiative, the rogue would have 30 base, and the thief would have 20 base.  Rolls and stats are then added to the base initiative value.  That doesn't do a lot for your present situation, but with other class choices, it would offset some of the racial imbalance.

I also agree with the in-game consequences.  It's also true that half-elves, if they were truly that blessed and capable of reproduction, should have dominated the other races.  There has to be a reason this isn't the case.

It's very possible there's some hidden reason that half-elves aren't more common.  There's a webcomic called Errant Story based around that idea - that half elves are prone to negative mutations and psychoses, which often develop later in life.  It was such a problem that the full blooded elves began hunting them down and killing them, even without any individual evidence of abberation.

In Tolkien lore, the half-elves could make a choice to remain immortal, or choose mortality.  In your campaign, this might not be an optional choice - each half elf undergoes a transitional state where they are forced to choose which half of their parentage will assume control.   Role play that, and you might even consider allowing the character's stats to transition over the course of several levels, once the choice is made.  You might not do both characters together - the anticipation of the hammer's fall could certainly be an interesting character development for the one who doesn't go through that transition.  Heck, for that matter, transition may occur gradually in some, and instantly in others.
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Offline Justin

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2008, 09:40:30 AM »
In Tolkien lore, the half-elves could make a choice to remain immortal, or choose mortality.
I've never actually read Tolkien. I was aware of this, but am wondering in which book do we discover this choice?
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Offline Winterknight

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2008, 10:20:02 AM »
Jeez, that's asking a lot for me to remember that.  I think it's in the Silmarillion.  I'm pretty sure that Elrond's father (can't remember the name) was the first to be granted that ability from Manwe.  IIRC, Elrond's brother chose to become mortal, in fact, and became the first of the high kings.  Which makes him the great-great-and-then-some-grandfather of Aragorn, making Aragorn and Arwen distant cousins.

I can't really remember the details, it's been a loooong time since I read that.
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Offline Right Wing Wacko

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Re: Initiative
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2008, 05:38:43 PM »
Jeez, that's asking a lot for me to remember that.  I think it's in the Silmarillion.  I'm pretty sure that Elrond's father (can't remember the name) was the first to be granted that ability from Manwe.  IIRC, Elrond's brother chose to become mortal, in fact, and became the first of the high kings.  Which makes him the great-great-and-then-some-grandfather of Aragorn, making Aragorn and Arwen distant cousins.

I can't really remember the details, it's been a loooong time since I read that.

Also, it is mentioned or hinted at in The Lord of the Rings. IIRC, The Fellowship of the Ring is the one.

And you are correct about Elronds brother (I can't remember his name either). And, again IIRC, there was some "bad blood" between Elrond and his brother because of his choice...

And sorry for being off topic :-[
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