Topic: Loremaster

[fac]

Well, Kirin says that he has witnessed a few coronations, that means he was there but no more. But if we consider that the Crowns were given by the Loremasters, some kings would think that receiving the crown from the hands of an immortal elf loremaster gives some flavour to the ceremony.

But for me it's clear that the Loremasters have changed from the know-it-all masters from the second age that did everything to fight the Unlife to a more low profile organization. So I divide them between field agents that travel almost everytime and are not known as loremasters and the advisors sent to different courts that have to act like loremasters and that means to be in some boring ceremonies giving old crowns while thinking "Andraax, you as***le, f****d crown"   

Mynars is in Haestra, check page 129 (Map F) and there number 2.

Regarding the original question, I use Randae as an example. I think that he is always travelling and spends 1 or 2 days in each village or big city meeting his informants, this network of informants are not loremasters at all, but normal people that tell things to him in exchange of gold, or because he helped them in the past, or because he's charming. And maybe a few times, Randae has put a spell on somebody to learn what happens in some place.

When Randae arrives to Haalkitaine he can give Ren a full report and Ren sends it by some magical means to Karilon. If the matter is really urgent, Randae can teleport to Karilon. I think that the reason some loremasters are quite rebel is because they don't lose time writing reports before, always after they have done what they think it's better.

[Witchking20k]

I think this is an area meant for the GM to use as he/she feels fit.

In my game the Lords of Orhan concern themselves as much as their fallowers do.  Therefore if a PC channeler takes interest and starts flexing  their muscle against a certain cause that issue is brought to light within the "Church" and gains the attention of the God.  As for direct interferance....well granting magical abilities to a fallower is just that.

Loremasters act all the time.  But, in order to maintain the illusion of nuetrality they do not do it directly.  Lets face it.  The Loremasters, powerful as they may be, are not generally warriors.  Meaning it is not their nature to solve things with a sword, that is probably why they pursued magic in the first place, and this demeanor is also one of the rights of passage into the Loremasters.
Many of the Loremasters whom are running the Guild now watched hundreds of their collegues die(or worse) the last time they directly intervened.  And at that time they were many and more powerful.
Lack of a decisive blow is part of the concern too.  So you kill Lorgalis.  Do his armies immediately evaporate from the world......no, they more than likely begin rampaging accross Jaiman....and every King and Lord will point directly at you for blame.  You discover Schrek and Destroy him.....now Ondovol has one less enemy....

Just some thoughts

[DonMoody]

I think this is an area meant for the GM to use as he/she feels fit.

Hard to argue with that.

I also think you are hitting near the mark with the points about 'what happened last time - when we were many more'.

While the Loremasters - as a group - might be legendary that some few in the world have heard of, the majority do not operate openly and use many contacts who have no idea they are part of or in involved with that organization.

As much as each could, they would develop a network like fac described and use that.
And within (and without) their developed network look for potential apprentices (who, at least initially and maybe for a very long time, would not even know they are being trained to become a Loremaster).

DonMoody

[Witchking20k]

I am currently running a scenario where PCs are being used to investigate the unlife by an associate of a Loremaster......

"Hey Garl, you know the ropes in Orian.  Would you mind checking into that ruin to the North for me?  I've heard that a Priest from the West has hired a few Mercenaries to accompany him there......."

That is how Loremasters get it done IMHO

[Walt]

Well, Kirin says that he has witnessed a few coronations, that means he was there but no more. But if we consider that the Crowns were given by the Loremasters, some kings would think that receiving the crown from the hands of an immortal elf loremaster gives some flavour to the ceremony.

The most important question in this is context: who has the right to crown (to crest?) the King? The Loremasters? Or the church of Orhan?
(By the way, how was it done in spain?)

[Vince]

The most important question in this is context: who has the right to crown (to crest?) the King? The Loremasters? Or the church of Orhan?
(By the way, how was it done in spain?)

It seems that Loremaster has more tradition in crowning kings in Jaiman...

Are you asking about our real king in Spain? Juan Carlos I?

The president of the CAMARA DE LAS CORTES GENERALES, is the person that crowned our King; but remember that in this moment there were not previous King. General Franco was leading the country then , so it had to be done trough the legislative organs. I don't know too much, he was crowned before i was born.

 

[dutch206]

The president of the CAMARA DE LAS CORTES GENERALES, is the person that crowned our King; but remember that in this moment there were not previous King. General Franco was leading the country then , so it had to be done through the legislative organs. 

How odd.  I always though a king was crowned with the hands. 

[Walt]

The most important question in this is context: who has the right to crown (to crest?) the King? The Loremasters? Or the church of Orhan?
(By the way, how was it done in spain?)

It seems that Loremaster has more tradition in crowning kings in Jaiman...

I have the same feeling, the Loremasters have a tradition in crowning the Jaimani kings. But if it is like this, than they are power players, and by everybody recognised as those.
And than the biggest poltical enemy is not the Unlife, it?s the high priest of Kuor. Who likely would se the right to crown kings as the rigth of the church!
By the way, than it?s really a nice and confortable situation for this on Unlife High-Priest acting in the United church of Orhan, declaring every second month a holly war against this meddling Loremasters! And getting full support from some Orhan branches. Beautiful!

[fac]

Don't forget that the Crowns were a gift from the loremasters, maybe a poisous gift but a gift after all.

[Walt]

@ Vice (or fac): I was interested in some other topic. The relationship between the church and the King of Spain in the medivial times.

@ Fac: I?m not quite sure how to understand your last post. For sure the crowns were a gift by the Loremasters. But like Vice states, it looks that there is a tradition of Loremasters crowning the Jaimani kings.

And looking at the setting of Jaiman, the role of the church of Orhan and specially Kuor, there must be a power struggle between the priests of Kuor and the Loremasters who of both institutions has got the right to rightfully crown a Jaimani King!

[fac]

I think the Church of Orhan is mainly stablished in Rhakhaan, not all Jaiman. What I mean is that the traditions of kings crowned by loremasters is derived from the fact that the loremaster gave the crowns to these kings.

In Spain, like other european countries, there was a sort of agreement between church and kings, there was no king of Spain in medieval times because the different kingdoms joined at the end of 15th century, but the kings that made this joint were called the catholic kings due to their strong bonds with the church. Their grandson was Charles I of Spain and V of Germany and he fought against protestants as emperor of Germany but also tried to solve the situation using the Council of Trento for the Counter-Reformation. His son Philip II also fought the protestants.

In Middle Ages almost all kings tried to be as catholic as possible and if they were powerful they would think to ask the Pope to be crowned as the Holy Roman Emperor, thus feeling inheritor of the roman emperors from the past.

[Walt]

I think the Church of Orhan is mainly stablished in Rhakhaan, not all Jaiman. What I mean is that the traditions of kings crowned by loremasters is derived from the fact that the loremaster gave the crowns to these kings.
[...]
In Middle Ages almost all kings tried to be as catholic as possible and if they were powerful they would think to ask the Pope to be crowned as the Holy Roman Emperor, thus feeling inheritor of the roman emperors from the past.

And this are right the important facts when thinking on the situation of Jaiman, and in special the Rhakhaan Empire, in the Third Era, the Loremasters and other pressure groups:

In the second era there was a tradition established to crown the rightful king by the Loremasters. Imagine this, there is a group of more or less dubious sages, presenting 6 nice crowns and telling everbody "you have to wear it". Why? So they had to allure the potential kings in the second era in accepting the Loremasters as some kind of instance. There are not to many kings who have some authority next to them. And at this moment the High Priest of Kuor for sure also had a problem: Sages (Loremaster) deciding who is the rightful king and making the coronation??? Hmm, difficult, don?t get in my way or you will have problems.
Okay, let?s go on. For sure the Loremasters had to keep track who IS the rightful king. Not only in Rhakhaan, no, in the full of Jaiman. Why? Hmm, imagine a non rightful (in the sense of the crowns) but perhabs rightful candidate in the eyes of at least a big par of the population puts on the crown. And is aferwards a dead, dumb and blind boy. Hey, who gave us this fu....ing crown? Ah, yeah, the Loremasters. Okay, please hand me a cross, some ugly big nails, a loremaster, andperhabs also a torch!
No, for sure the Loremasters had to make sure in forehand that only the rightful king dones the crown. And propably Tethior, Andraax and the other guy didn?t think about the consequences. With the crowns they had to interfer, all the time, again and again in politics!! Otherwise, after some dead candidates, they would be in big, big troubles.

[Walt]

And now think of the third age. There is this old tradition with the crowns. And the rightful coronation.
And think of old europe, trying to get this magical feeling of the old 6 empires like in our time it was always tried to find any connection to the magical old Holly Roman Emporer. Similar, not?
And now think of all the big troubles, and the power struggle, for the coronation. All the conflicts of how is the right pope, where is the right place for the coronation, and and and.

[DonMoody]

Some of these musings seem rather suspect to me.

For example, I was under the impression that the crowns of Jaiman confirmed legitimacy.
That is, you could claim whatever you wanted and have as much support as you could get but if you tried to be a king of one of the six realms without ever - in a very public ceremony - putting on the crown (regardless of who placed it on your head), there would always be doubts.
And if you did put the crown on and your mind was turned to mush, everyone pointed and said 'false pretender' (and said you got what you deserved for being a false pretender).

Similarly, comparing earth history to Kulthean history is rather dubious.
Here on Earth, we have *maybe* six thousand years of written history.
Kulthean's Third Era - by itself - is at least as long as [Earth] human written history.
In addition, the Third Era of Kulthea starts at a *radically* more advanced state of civilization than that of Earth just before the dawn of writing.
And we haven't even mentioned the Second Era of Kulthea (or the times before that).

Where as we (earth humans) look back six millennium and see 'only hunter gatherers with little or no agriculture even, let alone any sort of advanced civilization', when those on Kulthea look back the same length of time, they see a radically different past.

A bit more than six thousand years ago, our ancestors were *perhaps having pre-contemplative thoughts of written words*.
A bit more than six thousand years before the current Kulthean time (of c. 6050s Third Age), Kulthean ancestors were engaged in the Wars of Dominion.

And as you step back ? for each - another thousand years, then another thousand years, the contrast is even more amusing.

The crowns of Jaiman were given out what, about 9,000 years before the current time frame?
So there are more millennium of history (by a good amount) of the crowns being an indication of being a legitimate claimant to a throne of a Jaiman kingdom than Earth [currently] has written records.

I don't think there is any doubt amongst the masses that [even if for just a short time] wearing one of the nearly five digits years old legendary crowns is definitive confirmation that you are the proper heir.
Similarly, when a claimant does have access to the crown matching their claim but the claimant never puts the crown on (or is only said to have put it front of a people you do not have easy access to), there is definite and almost certainly widespread doubt that that individual is 'the real deal'.

DonMoody

[kmanktelow]

Hi, Don et al,

I must agree with you, Don- the Loremaster's might have manipluated things a bit (alright, a lot), to get the crowns initially used- but by now to the average Jaimani those crowns are the definitive, defacto symbol of King/Queen-ship.

Additionally, comparing the United Church of Orhan to the Christian Church is pushing things a bit. The Christian Church combined both the functions of the Church of Orhan- and the Loremasters. The Earth has only had one God (whose actual existence is open to often spirited debate) and the Church manipulated things so that the only way you could find things out, was to ask a priest.

Whereas Kulthea has a whole pantheon- whose existence can't be doubted. So, it would be difficult in the extreme for whichever religious group to grandly declaim:

"I hereby crown you <insert name here> in the eyes of <favourite God>." without said Celestial personage actually putting in a personal appearance, to add a bit of gravitas to the proceedings. (Although, the Dark God's might be more inclined to put in a personal appearance.)

On Earth, however, as God has never actually put in a personal appearance- or at least not in front of reliable witnesses- the Church could justifiably get away with such claims. Also, because of the sheer power of the Church, both politically and economically, it could (and did) pretty much control puppet monarchs. Basically, they had the power to hire and fire Kings, through the threat of excommunication- the commoners were so cowed by that threat and fear of eternal damnation- that they certainly wouldn't have been happy being ruled by a ruler who had been excommunicated. Additionally, they could easily coerce other Kings into warring on another- under that pretext.

My personal take on the Loremaster's crowning the Kings, in Jaiman at least, is the age old adage of "knowledge is power". Basically, it's a power thing- the Loremasters are widely regarded as the most learned group on Kulthea- which is why many realms like to have a Loremaster visible in the Corridors of Power- and the more famous the Loremaster, the more prestige accrued by the Ruler. So, for a Coronation, who better to have than one of the most famous Loremaster's of all time.

("Sorry, Andraax is fully booked that day- but Kirin T'haan is free.")

All the Best,

Kevin.

[Walt]

Hi together,

we shouldn?t mix to much together, but let?s focus shortly on the time discussion. Because I had the same with Terry some time ago, arguing similar like DonMoody did it. And I digged up his answer:

"Well... that has been brought up before. Let's keep in mind that technology has advanced tremendously in the last 400 years or so since the renaissance, but fairly sophisticated civilizations like China and Egypt date back several thousand years. Also, Kulthea remains more balkanized than earth, with somewhat less opportunity for shared knowledge. And interestingly, a very complex gear device was recently discovered that is 2000 years old. It was made by the Greeks; and the ability to make such a machine was since lost for 1500 years till it was re-developed in Europe. Finally, Magic has a retarding effect on the need for technology, so advances are slower.

We concentrated more on the discussion about time vs knowledge & technology. Basically there are 2 important facts: on the one hand the Essaence flows seperating much of the world and the wars of dominion. (if would like to go on on the time discussion -very interesting!- I would propose an new thread)

Now to come back to the crowns: in the Third Era everything what has to do with the Second Era is myth! The wars of Dominion were devasting, the time after direct comparable in the basic idea with the dark times after the fall of the Roman Empire. Only the time scale is much longer, but that?s a SHadow World specific thing. Some educated for sure will know of the crowns, but basically for the most persons it?s a mystical story. Like the Loremasters? But by the way, now we are rigth at my point at the start of the discussion: Kevins approach is a powerful approach for the Loremasters, putting them right in the middle of all power struggles.

I think it?s important to keep the second and the third era seperated in the discussion. Because both have a complete different setting and mood.

[Walt]

Additionally, comparing the United Church of Orhan to the Christian Church is pushing things a bit. The Christian Church combined both the functions of the Church of Orhan- and the Loremasters. The Earth has only had one God (whose actual existence is open to often spirited debate) and the Church manipulated things so that the only way you could find things out, was to ask a priest.

[...]. Also, because of the sheer power of the Church, both politically and economically, it could (and did) pretty much control puppet monarchs. Basically, they had the power to hire and fire Kings, through the threat of excommunication- the commoners were so cowed by that threat and fear of eternal damnation- that they certainly wouldn't have been happy being ruled by a ruler who had been excommunicated. Additionally, they could easily coerce other Kings into warring on another- under that pretext.

[... ] Basically, it's a power thing- the Loremasters are widely regarded as the most learned group on Kulthea- which is why many realms like to have a Loremaster visible in the Corridors of Power- and the more famous the Loremaster, the more prestige accrued by the Ruler. So, for a Coronation, who better to have than one of the most famous Loremaster's of all time.

("Sorry, Andraax is fully booked that day- but Kirin T'haan is free.")

Thanks Kevin. Quite the thing I wanted to point out:

• it?s not necessary to direct compare Christian Chruch vs United Church of Orhan. But is necessary to think about the power position the Church of Orhan will try to get. And in this sole facet the situations are quite combarable - for sure under different situations because of different worlds
• the Church of Orhan has got the right for eternal damnation. The backround that the powers are divided in the Church of Orhan (let?s put Eissa vs. Kuor) only makes the situation more interesting
• like you wrote: "Andraax is booked-Kirin T`haan is free". Like I already pointed out-this changes the whole organisation from obersvers, not intervering, to a dominant power group.

It?s an other interpretation, differerent like it was discussed at the start of the thread, and for sure an interesting option. But again, I want to add, that there will be a big difference in the self-image of the Loremasters of the Second and the Third era. This to times should be kept very seperate.
I myself am more inclined in using the Loremaster behind the curtain in the Third Age, not in the middle of the open power gaiming.

[dutch206]

Might I suggest the RM Companion III article on Arcane Orders?  The Loremasters would definitely qualify as "Origins shrouded in the mists of time".  Using this article, you would be able to make the Loremaster organization as simple or as complex as you desire.

[Walt]

Thanks dutch, I will grab my copy and read it.
I myself I?m putting the origins of the Loremasters in the mist of time in the Third Age. (and also the whole organisation is mystical in the Third Era)
But if you use it like it seems Kevin does, they must be much more openly and direct acting.
I think the discussion is now not so much about simple or complex, it?s more about what are the important facets over the flow of time defining the organisation in ~6050 TE.

[Walt]

I checked it. But it?s more about the form (and the rules) instead of content and history. But still thanks