Topic: High G, Low G

[markc]

 A common theme in SF fiction or some Fantasy fiction is a person from a high G world goes to a world with lower G and gets a sudden boost to their physical abilities. Now thinking about today?s and past?s space program people who spend some time in space have muscle deterioration.
 So why would not a human receive some advantages in a lower G environment but after a time become adapted to it and be just like every other local inhabitant?
MDC
 

[RandalThor]

Well, I guess we do not KNOW FOR SURE what long term existence in a low-G environment woud do to the human body, but we do have some pretty-good ideas in that arena. What I need to know for the question is are you talking about individual or species adaptation? Because each is an entirely different beast.

An individual can only adapt so far, as we are currently adapted to the environment that our multi-great ancestors lived in. For the most part, any currently adapted human living in space will at the very least loose physical strength due to the deterioration of thier muscles. I am sure that there are other effects, but I cannot think of any off the top of my head.

As a species, it will take many, many, many generations to adapt to a significantly different environment - baring any "assistance." Of course, with this "assistance" there can be any number of changes, whatever the technological level will allow. But, naturally progressed adaptations would probably run in the neighborhood of increased agility, and maybe even increased intelligence, though they will still likely be less strong as other humans.

[markc]

 I am thinking in a more general sense, that a human might get some benifits at the begining of planet fall but after a time peroid they would adjust to the new gravity level and not recieve any stat bonus.

 As to how much a human could adjust to? I might say +or - maybe 1/2 a G. But that is just a guess and not back up any any way by anything.
MDC

[Oldgrue]

That's why we have maneuver skills

There are several problems with variable g environments:
Exhaustion: High g is pretty obvious, but Low G can be an equal problem. EVA suits are still heavy, and a serious velocity can be built up.  Just because a PC can jump further in a 1/6g environment doesn't mean they know how to land without breaking or twisting something.

Supplies:  Supplies in a 1g environment could be radically different designs. A zero g cup (http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/01/helical-space-c.html) would be basically useless in 1+g. A 1g pint glass in 3g would be markedly less sturdy than its 3g native counterpart.  I wonder the relative wear on equipment for prolonged stays in higher g - how much faster things would wear down...

So long as your players aren't going to spend too long on a high G world, you should probably just eat up exhaustion points at an unpleasant rate.

Of course, it takes 40% more energy to reach escape velocity on an earth that pulled 2g...a landing might be one way.

[markc]

 Oldgrue,
 You are in my train of thought for the campaign. But one of my project advisors put out a statement like this "Yes and we can have people from a high G enviroment that get stat bonuses because now they are in less G's. I was thinking ya sure, be not a perminate stat gain as that woulf throw off my modified game. Thier are rules for High G and Low G in Future Law and each has two different levels of effect. But I just think that a persons body would adjust to the new enviroment after a time. IMO the effect would be like a weight lifter that has bulked up and suddenly reduces their lifting by 1/2. Yes sure they will stay bulked up for a time but their body will adjust to the decreased weight after a peroid of time.
But if you go from one extream to another extream that is when you will have problems. I think of it sort of like a slow assent during SCUBA diving or spending some time in a pressure chamber after a deep dive to prevent you blood from out gassing.

Thanks keep them coming,
MDC
     

[Marc R]

Benefits: Denser bone and tissue, more efficiant biochemistry.

People often ignore the latter, but remember the little note in the corner of every chemistry book formula:

STP Standard Temperature and Pressure

High gravity worlds tend to have high pressure atmospheres. . .if your body evolved in an area with 2x the oxygen concentrations, what feats of raw power/energy could you pull off? Of course, would you need an O2 tank in normal G?

Also, a lot of the variation tends to revolve not some much around adaption as evolution, either natural or genetic tampering. . .

most of the lit has geneticists tamper with the genome to make humans who can survive higher G and are therefore different.

i.e. short, denser people. . hmm dwarves!

If it's a genetic modification, then much of the stat mods should be permenant. . .but adaption does take a roll.

i.e. in David Webber's "Honor Harrington" series, the main character is from Sphynx, a 1.3 G world.

She's a "Genie", her ancestor's genome was tampered with increase high G survival.

She also makes sure to work out 1 hour a day at 1.3 Gs to "keep up her edge". . .helps to have adjustable grav on your ship if you want to do this.

As part of the genie package, her muscle tissue is more efficiant, and her system produces more biopower per time frame. . .in exchange she eats a lot more than normal, and will starve faster.

Barring other fiddles, the "Higher pressure more efficiant biochemistry" effect would mean faster metabolisms, more power/biological effort capability. . .but require more food and burn out sooner. . .as in age faster. . .

Scientist speaking to Replicant Roy Batty on his brief alotted life span. "The candle that burns twice as bright burns twice as fast. . .and you burn EVER so brightly my son."

Not that PCs often care about a "flaw" like "You die of old age at 50".

[markc]

LM,
 I get the high pressure thing but also if your outside is used to higher pressure then when it is not thier your outside will bulge. Maybe you have to wear gogles or your eyes pop out or you have joint problems as your muscles are no longer in the right position because they are extended.

 I can see how the benifits have been handeled in ficton but not the negatives.

 BTW, I love the H.H. series by Webber, in fact I think quite a few of them are free on the publishing co's website. I have not been thier is a couple of years so they might not be thier but if they are and you do not mind reading from a PC screen it is well worth it.

MDC

[RandalThor]

If you absolutely have to have temporary benefits/flaws attached to this (and I can see how that could work out) then you could just say that the bonuses/negatives last for 1-day per +/-1, with a single +/-1 going away in one day. This means that if you get a +5 Str bonus for going to a lower gravity world, then the first day you would have +5, the next day, +4, next +3, and so on until you are back to normal. Maybe they could extend or lessen this time by doing the appropriate exercise. If they want it to be permanent, then have them spend DPs on it at a cost determined by you (but I wouldn't go much higher than 5 or even 10 DPs per +1).

[Marc R]

A lot depends on how you play conditioning anyway. . .like the "Calesthenics" skill from the Arms Companion is about the only rule I can think of relating to that.

(Each rank raised one stat .5 Temp AND POT , 20 ranks or +10 maximum, no limits, so a 101 POT stat could go to a 111 POT stat. Drawback was "You need to spend X minutes a day exercising.)

I can think of quite a few lit sources where the marines do things like "One month out from our orbital insertion target, the CO turned the internal G to 1.2."

Any variable G ship system could simulate higher Gs, even doing it subtle wouldn't be too hard. . .like +.01 G per day would be unnoticable for a long time. . .and have notable benefits akin to walking around carrying weights all day long.

But this is an RPG, and your 101 Con, 101 STR, 90 AGL, 90 QU character can spend all his time watching TV eating ice cream and it doesn't affect thier stats either. . .they go on being olympic athlete level super men, without bothering to maintain. . .

Same logic kind of applies here too. . . if you're not making the regular PCs lift weights to maintain their physique, why make the heavy worlders do it?

[Oldgrue]

I'd seriously punish players who were doing that sort of naughtiness: "But we all want to be heavy-worlders..." hoping for a benefit.

As LM implied:
So, they're from a dense atmosphere...where do they have to be from to be adjusted to a 1g atmosphere?  Is it like moving from seaside to Denver?  Where's their rebreather? How about that 'Low G maneuvers' check?

I still wonder why they might colonize a high G world.  1.1, maybe 1.3... but 2?

[Marc R]

If the changes are evolved changes, then at least half of the variation will be constant, regardless of current environment. . .i.e. racial bonuses.

if you moved a few million people to a 1.4 G world, and left them there for a few hundred years, they'd have horrible mortality rates. . .and hence fast evolution.

You'd get short, heavily built people. . . .those genotypes ill suited to strong bones, strong muscles, and high blood pressures would just fall out the shallow end of the gene pool. . . .

If you then moved a few hundred of those people off their world into 1G. . .many of them would pass out. . .unable to deal with lower blood pressures. Perhaps they'd need something like a flight suit to squeeze their bodies to keep BP up. . .but some would be OK.

So you could let the PCs come from the select group able to freely live in 1G. . .and they'd have higher physical stats than normals. . . .but you could slap restrictions like:

You must wear a pressure suit
You need an O2 mask
You need to take medications constantly
You must (sleep in) spend 6 hours a day in a hyperbaric chamber or risk embolisms.

Or any other such. . . .but barring heavy worlders being so hyper evolved that they're crippled off world, they would essentially be a select population, and expected to have higher stats in those areas that help in the hostile environment they came from, with perhaps penalties in other areas.

[markc]

Thanks all this has really helped out and given me lots to think on. I am going to have to put my space game on hold for a time as something has come up that I need to do first.

 Oldgrue and LM,
 I agree that is what I am trying to stop the attribute creep or stat bonus inflation in the game. I am going to have most of the PC stats in the 50+ range and no min stat's for playing any profession. I think last time I used 100 points less than the point buy method or I used the roll method I described in the house rules paper in the vault. But again I think I will put a stat min of 35 for PC's stats and go from there.

 Some comments I had from my idea bounce group was a stat bonus chart for each world, which IMO would be bad for me as I have planned for a lot of worlds. Or a very complicated rule formula that would require some calculating in a spread sheet before each game and drive me and everyone who did not have the sheet crazy. Or just not use the rule at all.

[I am much more inclined to go with a simple ruling taking into account the comments you have outlined above and keeping the gravity of worlds to + or - .5 G?s or lower. There is going to be some problems with asteroid and 0-G miners but I think I will tackle that with grav-plate exercise technology.]
Thanks keep posting ideas and keep my gray matter working. And the Sci forum hopping, as in general it does not get as much attention as the fantasy sections.
 
MDC

[RandalThor]

I still wonder why they might colonize a high G world.  1.1, maybe 1.3... but 2?

Massive amounts of precious metals, minerals. If a profit is to be made........

[Marc R]

Depends also on how rare habitable worlds are. . .the rarer they are, the further from "norm" is acceptable.

[Oldgrue]

I suppose this is one of the tropes I never quite liked.  I'm more of the opinion that gas and mineral harvesting is more effective in say a Kuiper belt than searching about for the right planetary resources. A big old straw from low orbit to suck breathable gasses seems more sensible...and gives rise to things like 'gas mining'.

With a culture that can produce artificial gravity for their starships shouldn't high/low G worlds have stopped being a problem immediately?  Having folks start moving towards a phenotypical build adds flavor, and maybe give them a few free ranks in an appropriate maneuver and possibly a subskill for athletics in their home environment. 

[markc]

Oldgrue,
 I agree with the art. grav. statement but I was sort of thinking what if the explorers were only give the art. grav. tech and told basically how to fix it and not how it actually worked. So they would have some art. grav. but only what they were given. In that case I think "they" might do a little genetic eng. to help out people who spent their time mining. But then again they just might use robots to do the hard stuff and work from their nice control room.
MDC