Topic: Mapping CATs to ATs

[David Johansen]

Alright I want to build some tables for handling light vehicles under ten tonnes in Spacemaster.  In particular I feel that the existing Vehicle Law attack tables are entirely too focused on the capital ship scale stuff.

Obviously AT XI (Steel) is pretty directly equivalent to AT20 (Full Plate).

AT XI (Steel), XII (Titanium), XIII (Crysteel), XIV Cystanium, XV (Reinforced Crystanium), and XVIII (Crystanium Double Hull), would use AT 20 with various defensive bonuses and damage divisors.

AT XVI (Fullerene), XVII (Reinforced Fullerene), XIX (Fullerene Double Hull), and XX (Colossium) would provide AT X.

Possibly some very light vehicles like motor cycles and Go-Carts would only get AT 17 or VIII

So Here's what I'm thinking

AT XI (Steel)  AT 20 +10 DB
XII (Titanium)  AT 20 + 20 DB
XIII (Crysteel)  AT 20 +30 DB
XIV Cystanium)  AT 20 +40 DB
XV (Reinforced Crystanium)  AT 20 +50 DB
XVIII (Crystanium Double Hull)  AT 20 +50 DB & 1/2 Damage

AT XVI (Fullerene)  AT X +10 DB
XVII (Reinforced Fullerene) AT X +20 DB
XIX (Fullerene Double Hull) AT X +20 DB & 1/2 Damage
XX (Colossium)  AT X +30 DB & 1/2 Damage

Alternately I could map strictly to the Space Master armour types and ignore special rules regarding critical types.  This would be cleaner but obviously wouldn't map directly to the descriptions of the armour types.

AT XI (Steel)  AT I
XII (Titanium)  AT II
XIII (Crysteel)  AT III
XIV Cystanium)  AT IV
XV (Reinforced Crystanium)  AT V
XVIII (Crystanium Double Hull)  ATVIII

AT XVI (Fullerene)  AT VI
XVII (Reinforced Fullerene) AT VII
XIX (Fullerene Double Hull) AT IX
XX (Colossium)  AT X

In this case I'd probably assume that the size of the target pretty much cancels out any DB for being heavier than human scale armour.  Besides, Vehicles have 1000 x mass in tonnes human scale hit points.

I'd probably do a blast and pierce critical table for aircraft and ground vehicles since losing altitude isn't a hazard cars normally face.

Any thoughts?

[David Johansen]

The problem with the second method, of course is that the actual tables have declining hit probabilities to reflect heavier armours and declining damage across the top of the chart, so I'd probably have to add an OB modifier to most Armour Types anyhow.

Plus, I like the idea of double hulls having a literal half damage effect.

[David Johansen]

And the problem with the first method is that armour's making vehicles harder to hit without really providing a lot of improved protection.

I don't like over using damage multipliers and divisors though, so doing 1/2 to 1/5 damage doesn't appeal to me either.

Maybe use the vehicle attack tables directly with the BE as a mark number and increased hits?  That would practically remove the need for new critical tables.  And I do so like:

Blast puts a great big hole in the vehicle's lift capability, drop 1000 feet and make a piloting roll -30 to avoid going into a flat spin. (-30 to maneuvers from now on)

[David Johansen]

Man, listen to those crickets...

[Guillaume]

Cri cri cri cri ( cricket noise  )

You might want to try to look at some Spacemaster First and Second Edition stuff.

Specifically the Spacemaster Companion ( Unnumbered ) for SM1 that contains attack tables for some weapons that goes from AT1 to CAT 30.
( yes in that old time the CATs were from 21 to 30 )
And you might want to look at Armored Assault, where there's some small weapons VS Construct AT attacks tables.

Last I think there might be something in Weapon Law : Firearms, but I have a few doubts.

All in all, in the SM prior SM:P the CATs tables were just an extension of the ATs tables.

[David Johansen]

Yep, I've got second edition, though not Star Strike or Armoured Assault or Companion one.

I hate to say it but Space Master 2nd does handle small vehicles better.  I've got to go gargle kerosene now...

[markc]

 IMO with small vehicles I think how the important parts of the vehicle are inclosed are more important than the material. For example the go-cart aove has very little in the way of protection for its working parts I would give it a DB bonus but use the lowest AT/CAT and maybe even use the AA tables [even for a SM:P game]. Another thing is I have but have not read the HARP SCI FI rules for vehicles, there might be something in thier that might help.

MDC 

[David Johansen]

I always figure the Construction Armour Type is about what it's made of in general rather than just what it's covered with.  But I am thinking that things like motor bikes, jet skis, and go carts need an option for hitting the rider or the vehicle.

Here's my current thinking:

Light vehicles use the normal vehicle attack tables.  But small arms fire is treated as 2x the weapon's energy rating and the vehicle gets 100 x it's normal hits. This assumes that small arms are normally given a MK# of energy /5 as per The Vehicle Manual and that a vehicle's personal scale hits are 1000 x their vehicle scale hits as per Black Ops.

Open vehicles just have less hits much like an armour belt increases the vehicle's hits.

Now when it comes to hitting an open passenger I think you should generally just pick which one you're shooting at when you attack them.  It's much easier that way.  Optionally treat the rider or the vehicle as cover.  For most open vehicles the rider gets cover from the front and below but the vehicle gets cover from the top, sides and behind.  If the roll misses by the amount of cover (say 40 points) then the cover is hit with the roll using the original total.

[markc]

 IMO instead of providing multipliers to weapon hits I would just use a single multiplier to the vehicles hits if possible. Having players do more math at the table is ok for some groups and not for other groups.

 I also think the armor belt idea for specific vehicle mods is a very good fit for some vehicles.

 The biggest problem IMO is the fact that most vehicles are not designed for combat. They are designed to get you from A to B and provide crash protection. During the middle of my post I could not get the immages from my mind of the bank heist in Los Angeles, CA in which the robbers were using AK's and AP ammo. The AK rounds were just shreading the police cars frame and metal work. IMO the only cover the police had was that the robbers could not see them, if they had thier might have been a lot more deaths.

MDC   

[David Johansen]

Yeah, that's what I ment, the vehicle's hits are x 100 against small arms fire.  I haven't playtested it yet but I suspect they'll still shred nicely.  I haven't decided on crits yet but I suspect with a ground car having 100 hits and a BE 5 weapon counting as MK 10 they'll shred pretty quickly.

[markc]

 Or if the GM is not afraid of numbers just have the vehicle hits be a decimal of the normal vehicle scale damage. So 41 character hits become .41 vehicle hits.

MDC

[David Johansen]

Actually I really like that.  Mind you, I've felt for a long time that people who want a simpler gaming experience don't playing Rolemaster nor will they ever.  Adding the double digit numbers alone puts most of them off.

[Guillaume]

Yep, I've got second edition, though not Star Strike or Armoured Assault or Companion one.

For the Spacemaster Companion, it's the Unnumbered companion. For Spacemaster Fist Edition, not second editions.
All the construct thingies were removed from SM2 to be put either in SS ( space combat ) or AA ( Ground/Air/Water ).
Which reminds me that there might be a few things in the Tech Law too ( SM First Edition again )