Topic: armor - maneuver penalty - a question

[choc]

hi!

Someone in our fantasy group raise an issue about the penalties.
They applied to qu and ag maneuvers and abilities.
He argues that they apply to each qu and ag. he means it apllies to DB twice (2xqu) to dodge twice (2xag if not using acrobatics) and to pickpocket twice.

Any statements about this issue?

[Arioch]

The book says that the penalty is applied to all skills that have Ag or Qu as stats... nowhere is stated that it's applied two times to skills having both of them!

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

The penalties are not applied multiple times to a single maneuver.

[Cormac Doyle]

What Tim said ...

[Dr_Sage]

Complementing: maybe your friend is reading almost like if the Armor Penalty reduced the Stats (Qui and Agi). With is not true.
Its aplyed directly to the Manouvers.

PS: The Alen Maher autocalculations spreadsheet helped me a LOT with these armor issues.

Peace bro.

[choc]

Ok, we got it. Only once and only to AG and QU based maneuvers.

BUT there is a big hole, needs to correct or adopt a house rule:
There are two combat styles without AG in its stats MA Elemental Earth Style (ML) and MA Dragon Style (RCB). The rules enable to one of this styles wearing plate armor (and pass on chi defense) without any maneuver penalty (and no ranks for the armor really needed, except to be able to walk ).

This should get access to the next errata or ist it volitional?

[Right Wing Wacko]

Errr... Monks don't wear armor or their Chi skills suffer. And you still have to have "fitted" armor and ranks in the skill or suffer penalties.

Am I right on this?

[mocking bird]

Errr... Monks don't wear armor or their Chi skills suffer. And you still have to have "fitted" armor and ranks in the skill or suffer penalties.

Correct.  However the character would not need chi defence being able to wear armor while using the style since the style does not use Qu or Ag in it's stat mod thereby avoiding armor penalties. 

Likewise the style limiting factor is that you need an equal rank in strikes or sweeps.  However it is ranks not the final score as the armor penalty would be applied to the St/Th skill which do use agility.

[choc]

The only Chi skill with QU or AG is Chi Speed.
With armor, he doesn't need Chi Defense. And with armor his QU stat is normally low.
Concentrating on Chi Focus and Chi Strength matches with the Elemental Earth Style.

There must be a mistake in design, otherwise we expand the armor penalty to St via a houserule.

Likewise the style limiting factor is that you need an equal rank in strikes or sweeps.  However it is ranks not the final score as the armor penalty would be applied to the St/Th skill which do use agility.

what is St/Th please?

[mocking bird]

Martial arts strikes or throws abbreviation.

Expanding the armor rule to include strength seems counter productive as strength is used in the armor skills.  However the armor skill uses agility as well so it would have the armor penalty applied to it too, which seems a little odd - applying a penalty to a skill used to offset the penalty - but we just assume the armor skill is an exception and there is probably a note to that somewhere in the book.

Rather I think a better solution would be to add 'using the lesser of the OB's bewteen St/Th and style skill' (also keeping the rank requirement) which would indirectly apply the armor penalty to the OB without directly applying it to the style skill.

[choc]

Not a god idea because monks often used to have more SD then ST. They use concentration instead of pure strength to hit and to cleave bricks.

[Dr_Sage]

Cmon....

I appreciate the discovery of the "hole", but I believe a house rule would do just fine.

Besides nothing prevents a Fighter or any other profession from learning martial arts and a kickboxing full plate fighter would be hilarious at least.

One serious issue in my opinion is the Wrestling Style. Tecnicaly anyone can grapple using full plate with no penalty.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Clarification:

• The armor penalty applies to ANY & ALL combat (i.e. OB) skills, regardless of the stats. This was part of the intent before some Combat/OB skills had stats adjusted to be better suited to the skill
• The penalty does NOT apply to the Armor skill because that is not a maneuver (i.e. it is not anything that is ever rolled for).
• The Armor penalty applies to DB as described.
• The armor penalty apply to all other maneuvers that use quickness or agility. A maneuver is something that is rolled for. If you don't roll for it, the armor penalty does not apply (just like the armor skill).

[Alwyn]

Rasyr,

I have a question then, if the armor penalty applies to "any and all combat (OB) skills", does this apply to attack OB type spells as well, such as elemental attacks?  Or, is the PP penalty for wearing armor the only modifier/penalty? 

[choc]

@Alwyn

IMO it depends on casting style (CoM). It's only applied to the somatic style.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Spells are not combat skills, they are magical skills. I said "OB" in parenthesis to indicate that I was including weapon skills and style skills together.

Magical skills are affected by armor in a different way.

[Dr_Sage]

Clarification:

• The armor penalty applies to ANY & ALL combat (i.e. OB) skills, regardless of the stats. This was part of the intent before some Combat/OB skills had stats adjusted to be better suited to the skill

Good answer.

[/list]