Author Topic: A full conesequence magical society in RMU  (Read 1784 times)

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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2023, 12:38:18 AM »
Golems.  Bone or wood ones, so you can create intricate sifting methods.

Hm, aren't those extremely high level creations, and thus rather rare? I seem to be able to find only Stone Golems, creation of which takes a 40th level spell.
If you're working from the assumption that people are going to try and mass produce for the population and, therefore, likely have some kind of profit structure as a result, then the cost of a golem might not be all that different than a farmer buying the various machines they do today (combines are in the six figures for example).
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Offline Mordenkainen

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2023, 12:41:31 AM »
The above sentence was supposed to read: "I just want to think things through to the end here". Apologies.
Approach A: "from the rules I extrapolate that 1 out of 200 people in the setting will have the ability to enchant a magical lamp so therefore the big city is full of magical streetlamps"
Approach B: "As GM I want magical streetlamps in the setting, so I create a magical mineral that is easily enchanted by this new Open Essence spell I created" or "I don't want magical streetlamps, so even though the magical tech is not that hard to do, people just don't do it, maybe the king forbade it so his guards can prowl the streets bearing the only illumination after dark, or whatever"
To me, Option A is boring and can't be done properly anyway. It just doesn't hold up. Games weren't meant to work that way. You might think that only Option B involves creative decisions, but Option A requires them as well, it's just that they usually turn out pretty uninteresting because they are extrapolations of different subsystems that weren't created with 10/10 hindsight and tight integration. Option A always becomes in effect predicated on societies seeking economic or military optimisation based on industrial or capitalist-era ideas, which I repeat is BORING.

Offline jdale

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2023, 12:52:23 AM »
Multiple harvests, better utilization of labor, eliminating the risk of bad late season weather wiping out your crops... I think doubling the net yield is a conservative estimate.

Ah, but that is, again, just playing into how much yield per land we are getting. What we need to know is how much workforce we need to actually sow and harvest all that. The real work.

I meant per unit of labor. I think the improvement relative to land area would be even greater. 100x growth rates mean you could potentially harvest one plot of land every day or two.

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We've achieved that kind of result in the real world just by introducing herbicides.

As far as I am aware, the major point was actually harvesting machines, in terms of labor force savings. But in our example, no such machines are available.

There are many, many advances that have improved agriculture yields, you can't just pick out one and think that is the whole story.

http://africarice.blogspot.com/2012/11/creating-awareness-on-labor-saving.html
"Weeds are one of the major constraints to rice production in sub-Saharan Africa. Without control, they can cause yield losses ranging from 28% to 89%."

https://pesticidefacts.org/perspectives/herbicides-reduce-hand-weeding-in-africa/
"The majority of African farmers identify weeds as a major problem with yield losses, which can range from 25 to 100 percent."
"These hand-weeding methods account for 50-70 percent of production labor."

https://croplife.org/case-study/herbicide-use-in-africa-would-lead-to-large-increases-in-crop-yields/
"Research with herbicides has resulted in yield increases of up to 55% in maize and 75% in cotton. "

https://www.iita.org/news-item/novelty-weed-control-method-boosts-ssa-women-cassava-farmers/
"Research has shown that weeding takes 50% to 80% of the total labor budget of cassava growers"

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00220388.2020.1786062#
This article discusses the poverty ramifications of herbicides displacing labor.
"Altogether, these households hired 65% less labour for weeding and banking when they used herbicides (n = 46)."

The exact numbers are going to vary depending on the crop, climate, etc. This is not a systematic survey, just trying to find examples that are not in the context of modern mechanized agriculture.

That's all about weeds which require labor, but rapid growth also defeats plant blights and pests. If you grow your entire crop in 1-2 days, there's much less opportunity for them to get eaten by pests.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13593-012-0105-x
"Globally, an average of 35% of potential crop yield is lost to pre-harvest pests"

In the real world, herbicides and pesticides also cost labor, are imperfect, and have health ramifications. But here we eliminate the need for them entirely, and by making our farmers Druids they also have access to healing spells, purification spells, etc, so the overall health picture improves too (which also improves the efficiency of labor since people are out sick less).

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Offline jdale

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2023, 12:58:57 AM »
Golems.  Bone or wood ones, so you can create intricate sifting methods.

Hm, aren't those extremely high level creations, and thus rather rare? I seem to be able to find only Stone Golems, creation of which takes a 40th level spell.

You can make golems with Programmed Function (allows them to work without direct supervision) as low as 8th level. The up-front cost is significant but they last basically forever, so it's a pretty good investment for a city or nation. In agriculture, they could be suitable for plowing, sowing, and harvesting.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2023, 01:28:02 AM »
Animate Construct is a 13th level spell.

Golem Making is a whole list, depending on the Size of the golem to be created, but it starts at level 1 with wee little Diminutive golems of a non-magical, non-metallic substance. Little wooden or ivory golems running around weeding or destroying snails would be amusing. And, in quantity, effective. Mind you, you will need higher level spells to put them on task. [Beta Treasure Law, but this is unlikely to have been changed.]

There are many other tricks Alchemists can use to help automate things.

Blessed Fertility increases harvests by 50%, though it can only be applied to sacred land. Still, monasteries in the real world have gardens and European monks, at least, are known for producing specialty food items.

Back to Spell Law, the Loosen Earth spell is pretty much only useful for gardening, but the Sorcerer's Loosen Earth True (9th level spell) will magically plow an acre a foot deep (plenty for most crops) in moments. And plowing was a lot more trouble than planting the crop afterward. Meanwhile, Alchemists are churning out better plows for those that keep working the old fashioned way.
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2023, 01:32:57 AM »
I'd argue that sowing and harvesting is actually most of the work, and unless I have misread Spell Law, it doesn't seem to offer anything there?

Frankly, if planting and harvest were the labor bottlenecks, you wouldn't need a lot of full-time farmers. You'd have a smaller group of farmers, then people with other jobs would pitch in during planting and harvest.
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Offline Thot

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2023, 02:08:27 AM »
Golems.  Bone or wood ones, so you can create intricate sifting methods.

Hm, aren't those extremely high level creations, and thus rather rare? I seem to be able to find only Stone Golems, creation of which takes a 40th level spell.
If you're working from the assumption that people are going to try and mass produce for the population and, therefore, likely have some kind of profit structure as a result, then the cost of a golem might not be all that different than a farmer buying the various machines they do today (combines are in the six figures for example).

Huh, but that 40th level spell gives you a golem for 1 minute per level. That's great for specialized applications, but mass scale?

Offline Thot

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2023, 02:09:26 AM »
[...]
You can make golems with Programmed Function (allows them to work without direct supervision) as low as 8th level. The up-front cost is significant but they last basically forever, so it's a pretty good investment for a city or nation. In agriculture, they could be suitable for plowing, sowing, and harvesting.

That doesn't seem to be a spell that is in RMU... was ist maybe renamed?

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2023, 02:13:27 AM »
[...]
You can make golems with Programmed Function (allows them to work without direct supervision) as low as 8th level. The up-front cost is significant but they last basically forever, so it's a pretty good investment for a city or nation. In agriculture, they could be suitable for plowing, sowing, and harvesting.

That doesn't seem to be a spell that is in RMU... was ist maybe renamed?

Golem creation is in Treasure Law. Only 2 of 5 core books are out (in post-Beta form) yet.
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Offline Thot

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2023, 02:21:08 AM »
[...]
Frankly, if planting and harvest were the labor bottlenecks, you wouldn't need a lot of full-time farmers. You'd have a smaller group of farmers, then people with other jobs would pitch in during planting and harvest.

But that is what a medieval peasant's life is. You don't toil on the field all year. They did not just pull out weeds or plant or harvest, they looked after lifestock, maintained fences and farming equipment,  did services for their lords, etc. All of them did lots of other jobs throughout the year.

Other jobs that, however, boil down to being best suited for laborers and that need to be done. Currently (that is, with RMU Spell Law), I don't see magic changing that requirement.

Offline Thot

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2023, 02:22:26 AM »
Golem creation is in Treasure Law. Only 2 of 5 core books are out (in post-Beta form) yet.

Therefore, I cannot use them for my campaign yet. :)

Looking forward to that book though!

Offline Hurin

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2023, 08:53:55 AM »
Did you check Treasure Law? See section 4.5, on making golems, and then spell lists such as the Sanctifier's 'Golem Making' list.
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Offline Barner Cobblewood

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2023, 09:11:32 AM »
None of them show for me.

Dan wrote those. They are more detail-oriented than big picture. This might be a good place to start: https://web.archive.org/web/20191127234601/http://www.guildcompanion.com/scrolls/2008/

The one on animist base lists seems to be missing though.

Offline Thot

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2023, 09:17:37 AM »
Did you check Treasure Law? See section 4.5, on making golems, and then spell lists such as the Sanctifier's 'Golem Making' list.

Treasure Law isn't out yet, as has been stated.  (Not a fan of beta files.)

When will it be out, by the way?

Offline jdale

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2023, 09:42:54 AM »
Fixing everything in Spell Law is currently a higher priority. Once that's done we'll pivot to finishing Treasure Law and getting it out the door. Layout has already started.
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Offline Thot

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2023, 09:58:31 AM »
\o/

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2023, 09:19:09 PM »
Golem creation is in Treasure Law. Only 2 of 5 core books are out (in post-Beta form) yet.

Therefore, I cannot use them for my campaign yet. :)

Looking forward to that book though!
You're not really an RM user are you? lol
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(Channeling Companion, RMQ 1 & 2, and various Guild Companion articles author).

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Offline Thot

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2023, 10:20:20 PM »
Golem creation is in Treasure Law. Only 2 of 5 core books are out (in post-Beta form) yet.

Therefore, I cannot use them for my campaign yet. :)

Looking forward to that book though!
You're not really an RM user are you? lol

Well, the campaign hasn't quite started yet.

Of course I can improvise, use older books, use the beta files, whatever... but without some constraints, where's all the fun?

Offline KaBurr

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2023, 01:35:09 PM »
Consider rather more mundane creations.  I’ll let the philosophers debate the whys of it but churches are historically a place where the needy go.  Imagine churches where there are altars inscribed with create food spells.  Essentially daily vending machines not affected but floods and fires and basically last forever once made.  That one simple creation could cause a massive ripple effect through any fantasy world!

Imagine a magic guild that created portals all over the map essentially becoming a transportation guild.  Build it once and they just collect tolls until the end of time.  Trade goods, passengers, armies…  this is another “not difficult” thing that would radically affect societies!

Perpetual motion engines (via Telekinisis spells), elevators, fire suppression systems, magical healing devices, long range communication systems, lie detection systems, endless armies of summoned creatures, ungodly weapons of war…. If magic becomes commonplace, I doubt your fantasy world would look anything like the “fantasy world” we gamers are all used to!

Offline Thot

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Re: A full conesequence magical society in RMU
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2023, 02:43:04 AM »
I'll just hope the remaining books come out fast. :)