Topic: My Biggest RMU Complaint

[katastrophe]

Then why create even more fragmentation? They could have just put out a companion to the two already fragmented games with some optional codified house rules applicable to both. Woulda sure taken less than 10 years. That’s time that coulda been working on additional content for Shadow World, some adventure series and just making some focused booklets on 15 slightly different professions of thieves/assassins  for both systems and then a book on 12 professions of rangers/outdoorsman for both systems, etc.

If the idea was to just appeal
To the crowds already playing but to not be able to put out support for years for a playable game, that’s a terrible business approach even for a part-time operation. I suspect my buddies and a few game groups coulda put out the main books significantly faster but that’s neither here nor there.

So where we end up is with a product aimed at people that don’t really need a new product. And it’s incomplete so it’s unplayable. And nothing that’s going to be released for at least the next year or two would allow the target audience to actually switch from their ongoing gaming to the new game.

It seems a pointless and ill conceived endeavor. It has some “feel good” and “look what we accomplished” to it but from a bigger picture, there’s no there there yet.

[5th Knight of Xar]

Then why create even more fragmentation? They could have just put out a companion to the two already fragmented games with some optional codified house rules applicable to both. Woulda sure taken less than 10 years. That’s time that coulda been working on additional content for Shadow World, some adventure series and just making some focused booklets on 15 slightly different professions of thieves/assassins  for both systems and then a book on 12 professions of rangers/outdoorsman for both systems, etc.

If the idea was to just appeal
To the crowds already playing but to not be able to put out support for years for a playable game, that’s a terrible business approach even for a part-time operation. I suspect my buddies and a few game groups coulda put out the main books significantly faster but that’s neither here nor there.

So where we end up is with a product aimed at people that don’t really need a new product. And it’s incomplete so it’s unplayable. And nothing that’s going to be released for at least the next year or two would allow the target audience to actually switch from their ongoing gaming to the new game.

It seems a pointless and ill conceived endeavor. It has some “feel good” and “look what we accomplished” to it but from a bigger picture, there’s no there there yet.

I think we all got it now after weeks of complaining, RMU is not for you and your decades worth of gaming experience buddies. I suggest doing what you yourself suggested there and create the best rpg system ever then come back and show us, or even show us the progress in a dedicated thread on this forum as you go along. 👍

[katastrophe]

Then why create even more fragmentation? They could have just put out a companion to the two already fragmented games with some optional codified house rules applicable to both. Woulda sure taken less than 10 years. That’s time that coulda been working on additional content for Shadow World, some adventure series and just making some focused booklets on 15 slightly different professions of thieves/assassins  for both systems and then a book on 12 professions of rangers/outdoorsman for both systems, etc.

If the idea was to just appeal
To the crowds already playing but to not be able to put out support for years for a playable game, that’s a terrible business approach even for a part-time operation. I suspect my buddies and a few game groups coulda put out the main books significantly faster but that’s neither here nor there.

So where we end up is with a product aimed at people that don’t really need a new product. And it’s incomplete so it’s unplayable. And nothing that’s going to be released for at least the next year or two would allow the target audience to actually switch from their ongoing gaming to the new game.

It seems a pointless and ill conceived endeavor. It has some “feel good” and “look what we accomplished” to it but from a bigger picture, there’s no there there yet.

I think we all got it now after weeks of complaining, RMU is not for you and your decades worth of gaming experience buddies. I suggest doing what you yourself suggested there and create the best rpg system ever then come back and show us, or even show us the progress in a dedicated thread on this forum as you go along. 👍

So now you are a whiner because I have some negative views of aspects of the current product and its development, so sad.

[Cory Magel]

Then why create even more fragmentation?

You could ask the same question of any edition of any system beyond the original.  There are multiple reasons, the two biggest being legal reasons and the sustainable lifecycle of a product from both a quality and a monetary standpoint.  Nevermind the fact that the current ICE completely removed from the first two iterations of ICE, I'm not sure how much more quality RMSS product was left in that system.

[5th Knight of Xar]

Then why create even more fragmentation? They could have just put out a companion to the two already fragmented games with some optional codified house rules applicable to both. Woulda sure taken less than 10 years. That’s time that coulda been working on additional content for Shadow World, some adventure series and just making some focused booklets on 15 slightly different professions of thieves/assassins  for both systems and then a book on 12 professions of rangers/outdoorsman for both systems, etc.

If the idea was to just appeal
To the crowds already playing but to not be able to put out support for years for a playable game, that’s a terrible business approach even for a part-time operation. I suspect my buddies and a few game groups coulda put out the main books significantly faster but that’s neither here nor there.

So where we end up is with a product aimed at people that don’t really need a new product. And it’s incomplete so it’s unplayable. And nothing that’s going to be released for at least the next year or two would allow the target audience to actually switch from their ongoing gaming to the new game.

It seems a pointless and ill conceived endeavor. It has some “feel good” and “look what we accomplished” to it but from a bigger picture, there’s no there there yet.

I think we all got it now after weeks of complaining, RMU is not for you and your decades worth of gaming experience buddies. I suggest doing what you yourself suggested there and create the best rpg system ever then come back and show us, or even show us the progress in a dedicated thread on this forum as you go along. 👍

So now you are a whiner because I have some negative views of aspects of the current product and its development, so sad.

I dare say that your posts have been almost nothing but complaining and negative since RMU came out. The books are made as ICE wanted them to be, Core Law is probably updated now and in the prints these days.

[OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol]

One example: the number of Armor Types was reduced to 10. This not only streamlines play, but actually allows more actual armors to be used in game (e.g. Scale and Brigandine). This was a major change: all previous versions had 20 armor types.

The Combat Companion actually first introduced the 10 ATs…

[Hurin]

The Combat Companion actually first introduced the 10 ATs…

Ok, I'll amend my statement to say, 'All previous core rules had only 20 Armor Types' and add, 'No previous edition, whether core or expansion, had specific (rather than general 'Crushing' etc.) attack charts with 10 armor types.'

[katastrophe]

I dare say that your posts have been almost nothing but complaining and negative since RMU came out. The books are made as ICE wanted them to be, Core Law is probably updated now and in the prints these days.

And? The title of the thread is Biggest Complaint. If you have none or you have a constructive discussion statement have at it. Complaining that I have issues with it is rather childish.

Now I’ve raised questions and stated MY view of the game and decisions that went into the development of same. That’s what the forum is for.

[nash]

As the OP, can I just point out my biggest complaint was that I can't play the game as currently published.  That is, 95% of what I need to play RMU is in Core Law (which is fantastic), and I wanted to make a suggestion to get the other 5%.

This was not meant to be complain about RMU thread.

I posted what I thought was a relatively easy way to fix it the basic problem (add some monsters; which I think is still doable as a 4 page PDF, with 8 simple monsters or something), and a harder way to really improve it (add some spells; I knew likely to be unworkable).

The title was meant to be attention grabbing; but it was generally meant to be constructive piece of feedback about how to get people playing RMU today.

I hope the RMU Authors did not take it as a personal criticism, it was meant to be piece of constructive feedback with an earnest suggestion on how to make the experience better.  My apologies that my post was unclear.  I did not mean for this to create any vitriol or complaints about the way RM is going.

FWIW, I like RMSS, I liked RM2 and I like RMU.   RMU feels quite coherent and consistent, well structured and I generally like the rules; I think things like the manuevering rules and Action rules are probably the best out of the box for any edition of Rolemaster (as initially published).   I hope I can play RMU soon, but that's mostly with respect to me finding a group/game.

[5th Knight of Xar]

Your post was not unclear nash, some just want to spread negativity for the sake of doing so.

[katastrophe]

Anyway, is there a timeline for the release of Spell Law and the two Creature and Treasure Books, so that the core necessary for play game books will be widely available in an official (not test) form?

Also, when might a basic RMU Shadow World conversion be done, with the races updated to their shadow world form (which differs from the core book) or at least a beta version?

Any specific plans to officially address additional classes/professions that have been in the game for decades and are pretty often used, at least from my observation, like the Armsmaster and Warrior Mage (along with their base lists)?

[MisterK]

Your post was not unclear nash, some just want to spread negativity for the sake of doing so.

I don't think it's "for the sake of doing so". Some people would have liked RMU to be different from what it is, and they are vocal about it. And that's fine, unless this forum is a congratulations forum where dissent is not accepted (in which case it could stand to be named more appropriately).

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think criticism needs to be constructive to be worthwhile - it needs to be explained. Constructive (providing a solution) is optional, especially if you're merely a player and have no skill in game design. As I said in another thread, the lack of design notes in the RMU books make constructive criticism all the more difficult. However, explaining *why* you think parts of the rules are wrong is valid.

[jaesyk]

Your post was not unclear nash, some just want to spread negativity for the sake of doing so.

I don't think it's "for the sake of doing so". Some people would have liked RMU to be different from what it is, and they are vocal about it. And that's fine, unless this forum is a congratulations forum where dissent is not accepted (in which case it could stand to be named more appropriately).

Contrary to popular opinion, I don't think criticism needs to be constructive to be worthwhile - it needs to be explained. Constructive (providing a solution) is optional, especially if you're merely a player and have no skill in game design. As I said in another thread, the lack of design notes in the RMU books make constructive criticism all the more difficult. However, explaining *why* you think parts of the rules are wrong is valid.

I agree completely. The worst thing that can happen to any forum is for it to become an echo chamber.

[5th Knight of Xar]

The book is out, minor adjustments and error fixing being done to it. There's no amount of complaining from a very minor group of very vocal people that will change Core Law into something else. So why whine and spread negativity?

[MisterK]

The book is out, minor adjustments and error fixing being done to it. There's no amount of complaining from a very minor group of very vocal people that will change Core Law into something else. So why whine and spread negativity?

The history of RM provides a significant amount of precedents indicating that the course of the game can be altered in the companions.

Furthermore, criticism provide perspective.

We all know that Core Law itself will not change. Some people think it is good. Others don't. Both have the right to express themselves here. I don't see why another reason would be needed.

[5th Knight of Xar]

The book is out, minor adjustments and error fixing being done to it. There's no amount of complaining from a very minor group of very vocal people that will change Core Law into something else. So why whine and spread negativity?

The history of RM provides a significant amount of precedents indicating that the course of the game can be altered in the companions.

Furthermore, criticism provide perspective.

We all know that Core Law itself will not change. Some people think it is good. Others don't. Both have the right to express themselves here. I don't see why another reason would be needed.

Then perhaps make a thread of its own, dedicated to bashing at RMU, ICE why they didn't make RMU as they wanted, add in some bragging how "me and my gaming buddies" could have done it so much better for goodness sake. See how much audience that gets instead of grabbing almost every opportunity to do so in other people's threads that really weren't meant for it, see OP's statement above as an example. This constant negativity is what I see as whining, not constructive, especially since the product is made and being sold after years in the making. A classic example of "you didn't make it as I wanted, now I'm going to be pissed".

[chook]

My only complaint is that I cannot see an answer to the question:

What, specifically and in detail, was the problem with RMFRP that need to be solved by having a new edition?

[Cory Magel]

My only complaint is that I cannot see an answer to the question:
What, specifically and in detail, was the problem with RMFRP that need to be solved by having a new edition?

The biggest reason is portions of the previous editions of RM was designed, in part, by employees of the previous iterations of ICE and was not usable without their permission, which is unlikely to be granted.

Putting the user hat on, I would liked to have seen more content for RMSS/RMFRP, before a new system. I'm not sure how much quality material was going to be forthcoming on that front however and republishing RMSS books for RMFRP wouldn't have gotten me to buy them. It would need to be new material.

Putting the company hot on (and as stated above), I think a new edition was necessary for a number of reasons. The most problematic being the IP legalities. The second issue being where new content was going to come from, how unique that content was, and who was going to create it (time required by the author and the quality of that authors work).

My primary issue with RMU at this point is, from what I can tell, it isn't near as backwards compatible. It's fairly easy to cross pollinate between the old RM editions, but it seems like that's going to be a larger issue with RMU... which means for someone who is likely to keep using RMSS, RMU becomes even less useful.  For example, if round structure and how Haste works has changed, I can no longer use spell lists with Haste on them.  Simply using an RMU spell list as is and changing the Haste spells to how they used to work might have balancing implications that I'm not okay with... which means redesigning the spell list entirely, which effectively reduces its usefulness to me. But we have yet to see how this really ended up at the finish line. Odds are good I'm going to pick up most the books for various reasons, but odds are also good (at this point) I may never use them.

[pastaav]

As the OP, can I just point out my biggest complaint was that I can't play the game as currently published.  That is, 95% of what I need to play RMU is in Core Law (which is fantastic), and I wanted to make a suggestion to get the other 5%.

This was not meant to be complain about RMU thread.

I posted what I thought was a relatively easy way to fix it the basic problem (add some monsters; which I think is still doable as a 4 page PDF, with 8 simple monsters or something), and a harder way to really improve it (add some spells; I knew likely to be unworkable).

That is a very good point. The thread hijacking here is massive, and people are adding many rants that would be much better in their own threads.

Creating a few free samples that are available to the paying customers with some spell lists and some monsters would not really hurt future sales but would make testing out RMU much more smooth.

If the advertising makes clear these are preview pages from the upcoming books, it does not even need to be a separate product. Just select some professions and a few monsters and bundle those pages, and Nash's problem would be solved. If the layout or text is improved, the preview changes can be adjusted as well.

The scenario that somebody wants to buy the core book and do some testing before they commit to buying all the books is reasonable, even when all books are out. Keeping the marketing scheme running makes total sense. Adding additional free material to the core books bundle from time to time would be a great way to grab in those buyers who are on the fence about investing in more books.

[katastrophe]

My only complaint is that I cannot see an answer to the question:
What, specifically and in detail, was the problem with RMFRP that need to be solved by having a new edition?

The biggest reason is portions of the previous editions of RM was designed, in part, by employees of the previous iterations of ICE and was not usable without their permission, which is unlikely to be granted.

See, that was not that difficult. MOST people, myself included, was not fully aware that this was actually the case, aside from a rumor here or there.

So a reason for rewriting the rules was to make a product that the current ICE has complete control over. Good. Makes a great deal of sense.