Author Topic: Parry or Dodge  (Read 5469 times)

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Offline Hurin

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2019, 04:17:22 PM »
@Peter: in RM2, 2-handed weapons were only less effective at parrying vs. one-handed weapons. 2HD weapons could however parry other 2HD weapons at full value. Is that not the case in RMC?

@Spectre. Those are good points you make, but I would ask two further questions:

--In your training with a bow, have you also been trained to hit people on the wrist and poke them in the eyes with it? Are you as proficient doing that with a longbow as someone who has trained with a bo staff would be at parrying melee attacks? Or would you be less effective at it than someone who has trained to use an actual melee weapon as a melee weapon?

--What happens if you don't have a pillar to run behind or a chair to throw in the way of the attacker? In fact, Rolemaster does not have any movement requirements at all: you can be caught completely still in a corner, with literally nowhere to move, and still not suffer any penalty for 'parrying' with a longbow.

RMC at least addresses this issue somewhat by making a 2-handed parry less effective: characters can only parry at 50%. But this produces a rather strange result if we consider that one could parry with a sling (one-handed to shoot) presumably full OB? If so, the game is kind of saying that you are much better off parrying with a sling than with a longbow.


 
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2019, 02:06:26 AM »
@Peter: in RM2, 2-handed weapons were only less effective at parrying vs. one-handed weapons. 2HD weapons could however parry other 2HD weapons at full value. Is that not the case in RMC?

@Spectre. Those are good points you make, but I would ask two further questions:

--In your training with a bow, have you also been trained to hit people on the wrist and poke them in the eyes with it? Are you as proficient doing that with a longbow as someone who has trained with a bo staff would be at parrying melee attacks? Or would you be less effective at it than someone who has trained to use an actual melee weapon as a melee weapon?

--What happens if you don't have a pillar to run behind or a chair to throw in the way of the attacker? In fact, Rolemaster does not have any movement requirements at all: you can be caught completely still in a corner, with literally nowhere to move, and still not suffer any penalty for 'parrying' with a longbow.

RMC at least addresses this issue somewhat by making a 2-handed parry less effective: characters can only parry at 50%. But this produces a rather strange result if we consider that one could parry with a sling (one-handed to shoot) presumably full OB? If so, the game is kind of saying that you are much better off parrying with a sling than with a longbow.
Actually, the 2h vs 1h rule is still in place.

The parrying rules in RMC state two criteria for parrying
They must also have a shield,
suitable terrain, or a Melee weapon to
get full benefit of parry. Some weapons
may only be used to parry with a certain
percentage of the wielder’s OB.


In your examples above you have taken away the suitable terrain and the defender has no melee weapon. There is no hard and fast table for DB modifiers it just says that you will get a certain percentage of you OB. IF we had a sling user compressed into a corner trying to do an all out parry then I would give them +5DB for having a 1 handed weapon and using 100% of their OB of their parry (as per 02-04 SHIELD-PARRY TABLE) and probaby 10% of their OB as added DB. This reflects that an inexperience sling user is less likely to have had the time or training to work out effectively how to use a sling to put off their attacker. A high level and highly skilled slinger has had more chance develop those skills. Nothing is going to change the fact that a sling is not a good choice as a defensive weapon.

The long bow user above, you have taken away the terrain due to the corner but I think that a bow is still a substantial piece of wood that the attacker could not ignore. In this situation the defender has no terrain to use and no melee weapon so it is down to the GM and 'a certain percentage of the wielder's OB'. I would rule that 100% parry would yield 25% DB bonus.

That is RMC's take on it. It ultimately falls back on the GM making a situation call if you have neither terrain or suitable weapon.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2019, 07:14:59 AM »
Ok, let me ask the other part of the question: is it balanced that the archer can make himself virtually immune to the melee combatant even when the melee combatant has braved a hail of arrows and finally closed the gap?

Please remember that this is an RM2/RMC discussion. What can or cannot happen in RMu is not really on topic. With that out of the way the description of the situation you have given is that the archer has +150 OB. The RMC rules RAW mean that this gives a maximum parry of +75. (Bows are 2 handed weapons as they are impossible to shoot with only one hand under normal circumstances and table 02-04 SHIELD-PARRY TABLE clearly says that two-handed weapons give maximum 50% parry)

I simply do not see a high level character going all out defensive gain +75DB as unbalanced. I think that in RM2 a high level character with 20+ levels of experience gaining no advantage seems harsh. What the RMu character can is moot as none of us have actually seen the rules as they have been submitted to editing.
Actually, I see it as a problem personally, because there is no direct relation between level and combat ability in RM - in other words, you can be very high level and a complete klutz in combat - being level 20 in itself does not come with built-in defensive capability. The indirect relation is through the appropriate skills - emphasis on "appropriate".
My problem is that I do not see the bow skill being "appropriate" to defend against melee attacks, and I do not think it was ever the intent.

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2019, 07:21:19 AM »

@Spectre. Those are good points you make, but I would ask two further questions:

--In your training with a bow, have you also been trained to hit people on the wrist and poke them in the eyes with it? Are you as proficient doing that with a longbow as someone who has trained with a bo staff would be at parrying melee attacks? Or would you be less effective at it than someone who has trained to use an actual melee weapon as a melee weapon?

Those are two examples of what parrying could be regardless of what is held in the defender's hand.  A bow, a bo, a pool cue, a broken chair leg... the item can be used to parry at the attacker's hand, wrist, arm, elbow, face, neck, etc.  the main point is that "parrying" does not mean "weapon vs. weapon contact only."  Parrying can be many things.

I have zero bow training.  I tried it at a young age and didn't have a wrist guard and after a few whacks of the bow string on my forearm, I quickly lost interest.  When I was older, I wanted to try bow hunting.  I  found I can't draw a compound bow at all.  50lb pull and 35lb hold?  Can't do it.  But I would still rather have that bow in my hand to defend myself than nothing at all, even if I have zero bow skill.

2nd question is a little unfair and tricky to answer.  Having trained with 6' staff, there is little to no difference with a 4' staff (roughly long bow length and standard bow lengths)  Knowing how to use a length of wood between 4' - 6' regardless of it's name or function, is no different.  In that sense, it's not a fair question because the trained weapon user is just using a tool as an extension of his body.  The same person can use a sword probably more effectively and in fact, training swords are often made out of wood which is just a fancy looking club at that point (or table leg or stick or lead pipe... who finds lead pipes laying around???  Ever???).  Legolas used an arrow like a dagger to stab an orc in the eye.  That should have carried major penalties for not being trained in 1H Thrusting Weapons and using improvised weapon and using the arrow in a manner in which it wasn't intended.  That bow-elf held his own in melee with a bow.

In the spirit of the thread topic, obviously I have to say "most likely not" but not a definite "no."   Just because the bow user wasn't trained specifically to beat an attacker with the bow but it doesn't mean he doesn't know it can be used as a deterrent in a fix.  Definitely not habit he wold want to get used to.  However, as the bow user advances in skill and is more comfortable with it and far more familiar with it's weight, length, balance point, etc. he could be effective at knowing how best to protect the bow string and jab at an attacker's face to distract him.  The purpose of the parry is to detract from the attacker's ability to make a full OB attack.  Poking at the face really isn't a trained combat skill at all as much as it's an innate self-preservation survival reaction that even animals use.  Go for the eyes!!!   (Or the groin)  I'm sure if I backed PeterR with his bow into a corner and I'm attacking him, he's going to kick at my groin, try to hit me in the groin with his bow, or maybe lunge at my face with the bow, anything to break my ability to get a clean solid shot at him.  Peter is going to use the bow to aid in defending himself as opposed to using only his empty hand to defend himself in a desperate moment.

I can hear his battle cry now "Not in the bow!  Not in the bow!"

* I chose PeterR because we have a fun, working relationship, not because I want to attack him with a sword.  Sorry Peter, no ill-will intended! :D



Quote

--What happens if you don't have a pillar to run behind or a chair to throw in the way of the attacker? In fact, Rolemaster does not have any movement requirements at all: you can be caught completely still in a corner, with literally nowhere to move, and still not suffer any penalty for 'parrying' with a longbow.

RMC at least addresses this issue somewhat by making a 2-handed parry less effective: characters can only parry at 50%. But this produces a rather strange result if we consider that one could parry with a sling (one-handed to shoot) presumably full OB? If so, the game is kind of saying that you are much better off parrying with a sling than with a longbow.

First question, again, just examples of narrative explanations that could be considered part of parrying and getting out of the way of the attack.  All these fluid variables can be used in narrative to explain why the swordsman didn't hit the bowman as effectively as he wanted to.

In my previous post, I forgot the 2H Parry Rule.  RM2 has the same rule: 2H weapons parry at 50% max.  In real life application, I don't understand that, but for game play balance I understand it.  No shield = 50% of your defending ability... or power balance as 2H weapons deal out much higher damage.  I understand it for game play and our players don't have issues with it.  So my example of the bowman with 150 OB should only be parrying at 75 OB max, but he's also going against attacker with about the same OB so he's still at a marked disadvantage.  And to get to 150 OB he's arguably level 15+ PC?  (10 ranks at 5%, 10 ranks at 2%, 10 ranks at 1% = 80 OB before stats and bonuses)  By level 15, having fought many goblins, demons, vampires, maybe a dragon or two, and countless BBEG's, the bowman must have picked up a thing or two from his melee companions and knows how to best utilize that 4' - 6' stick in his hands in a desperate moment.

Bow parry and sling parry.  I hadn't noticed that!  Good point.  You can argue the sling is 2H because you need to hold the bullets with one hand and the sling with the other?? :)    That is definitely not a fair game feature.  Although maybe you can snap the sling like a wet towel?  I would still rather have the bow to parry with than a little strip of leather.

Just for very basic, most simplistic means of self preservation, any human being with no weapons skill at all, no bow skill at all, can take a stick or a broom or a shovel and just jab and swing wildly at an attacker to try to deter the attacker.  You see it in security camera videos (my wife watches Caught on Cam on Netflix all the time) a person grabs whatever he can find to try to fend off an attacker and just jabs, swings, pokes wildly.  A level 15+ PC should be able to do the same with more aplomb and more calm, cool, and collected in a battle than the poor bloke being jumped for his watch and wallet. 

I'm tellin ya, a stick poking at your eyes is a good deterrent!
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Spectre771

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2019, 07:36:17 AM »

Actually, I see it as a problem personally, because there is no direct relation between level and combat ability in RM - in other words, you can be very high level and a complete klutz in combat - being level 20 in itself does not come with built-in defensive capability. The indirect relation is through the appropriate skills - emphasis on "appropriate".
My problem is that I do not see the bow skill being "appropriate" to defend against melee attacks, and I do not think it was ever the intent.

This popped up as I was posting my reply and also goes to @PeterR as well.  If I use the bow as defense in a battle, it's no longer a bow, it's at best a staff, at worst a club, and is a melee weapon at that point.  I'm not trying parry the attack by shooting the arrow at the sword as the means of my parry, which MisterK is your point and I agree with you.  The bow used as it is intended to be used is not capable of parrying a melee attack.  To shoot the sword with an arrow to redirect the attack is Hollywood Superhero Movie Magic at that point and has no place in my made-up fantasy world! LOL 

I'm not using the bow as it was designed, I'm using the bow as a club of sorts or even an improvised weapon as my means of parry.
If discretion is the better valor and
cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Hurin

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2019, 01:37:25 PM »
Ok, but if you're not using the bow or sling as it was designed, shouldn't there be a penalty to using it? That's kind of my whole point.

Right now, a longbow user gets full OB with the longbow when he uses it as a ranged weapon, and full OB for parrying a 2-handed sword. He is literally as good at parrying a two-handed sword as a swordsman who has trained to be a master at 2-handed sword and has an actual two-handed sword out is.

A guy with a sling is in fact even better than the longbow user at parrying melee weapons: he can get full OB against two-handed swords and one-handed swords.

In fact, the guy with the sling is better at parrying one-handed swords than the guy with the two-handed sword is.

I have no problem giving some DB bonus to people who spend their action to Dodge or Parry. But this seems neither realistic nor balanced to me.

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Offline Spectre771

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2019, 02:56:47 PM »
Ok, but if you're not using the bow or sling as it was designed, shouldn't there be a penalty to using it? That's kind of my whole point.


Maybe 50% of what you would normally be able to parry with?  In the case of a 2H bow, 25% OB?  That 'feels' a little low to me, maybe 1/3 OB?  Your explanation is very valid and makes sense.  As a Martial Artist, I still see the bow as a staff with a little curve to it, but the sling is entirely different and really raises issues.  We're going to have to find a fuzzy line that addresses realism/balance/common sense. 

Quote

Right now, a longbow user gets full OB with the longbow when he uses it as a ranged weapon, and full OB for parrying a 2-handed sword. He is literally as good at parrying a two-handed sword as a swordsman who has trained to be a master at 2-handed sword and has an actual two-handed sword out is.


The bow is 2H weapon even if used as an improvised staff.  A staff is still 2H so 50% OB for the bow-as-staff as well.  Maybe from this value, a flat -15 for using the weapon in an improvised manner?  100 OB at 50% parry (50 - 15 = +35 DB)?  Which would work at fairly well (I think) even for a level 1 PC with an OB of maybe 30-ish.  15 - 15 = 0 DB bonus.  A level 1 PC would not be very adept at any type of combat, let alone using the bow in an improvised manner.  If the value would be a negative number, I wouldn't give a negative DB modifier, the PC just gets no additional DB from parry.

I just did a quick glance at the level 1 PCs we have and their OB ranges are 37 to 43.  (All weapon skills, not just bow skills)  (18.5 - 15 = 3.5 = +4 Parry)  A +4 DB seems fair for a level 1 PC trying to parry with a bow in melee.


Now the dude that decided to bring a sling to a sword fight.  That is really tough to reconcile.   The group I started gaming with were members in the Martial Arts Club in college.  That's how we all met.  We knew what was very possible in reality as far as fighting unarmed vs. armed opponents.  Heck, we practiced it every night.  Martial Artists can parry vs. armed foes in real life so we allowed it in game.  The sling-dude... unless he has some Martial Arts Rank 1, I'm pretty sure our group would rule that he can't parry vs. armed foe per RAW.  Where a bow can be used as an improvised staff, I can't think of any comparable melee weapon a strip of leather can be used as.  I would argue the sling user, in melee, has no improvised melee weapon at his disposal. 

This will definitely be written up as a house rule for us starting now.
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cowardice the better part of judgment,
let's all be heroes and run away!

Offline Peter R

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2019, 04:03:11 PM »
Ok, let me ask the other part of the question: is it balanced that the archer can make himself virtually immune to the melee combatant even when the melee combatant has braved a hail of arrows and finally closed the gap?

Please remember that this is an RM2/RMC discussion. What can or cannot happen in RMu is not really on topic. With that out of the way the description of the situation you have given is that the archer has +150 OB. The RMC rules RAW mean that this gives a maximum parry of +75. (Bows are 2 handed weapons as they are impossible to shoot with only one hand under normal circumstances and table 02-04 SHIELD-PARRY TABLE clearly says that two-handed weapons give maximum 50% parry)

I simply do not see a high level character going all out defensive gain +75DB as unbalanced. I think that in RM2 a high level character with 20+ levels of experience gaining no advantage seems harsh. What the RMu character can is moot as none of us have actually seen the rules as they have been submitted to editing.
Actually, I see it as a problem personally, because there is no direct relation between level and combat ability in RM - in other words, you can be very high level and a complete klutz in combat - being level 20 in itself does not come with built-in defensive capability. The indirect relation is through the appropriate skills - emphasis on "appropriate".
My problem is that I do not see the bow skill being "appropriate" to defend against melee attacks, and I do not think it was ever the intent.
I mentioned 20th level, not assuming a natural increase in skill but because a 150OB with a bow would require that sort of level character. 42 ranks with a weapon should imply a fairly broad experience.
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Offline intothatdarkness

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2019, 06:48:19 PM »
A strung bow is going to be difficult to parry with, and also very subject to damage (especially a composite bow). I'd call it a staff on a VERY good day, and possibly then only if it was unstrung. I still think the best parrying option with a bow is going to be a crossbow. I might let a character play Legolas with a strung bow, but there would also be a serious chance of things being broken (bow strings and so on). Crossbows, on the other hand, are much more substantial and more difficult to damage.
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Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2020, 10:19:29 AM »
With any missile weapon isn't the OB an indication of the accuracy of aiming not an example of the cut and thrust on melee? I let the character parry with either Quarterstaff/2H or 1H club equivalent OB using a vaguely equivalent skill ranking (1/4 if not directly comparable). There are still breakage rolls as although flexible, bows aren't particularly durable even if you skillfully went for catching the limb rather than the metal of the weapon.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2020, 04:40:42 PM »
I let the character parry with either Quarterstaff/2H or 1H club equivalent OB using a vaguely equivalent skill ranking (1/4 if not directly comparable).

That seems very reasonable to me.

For RM2, I would do the same.

RMU has similar skill rules that are a little more simplified version of the RM2 similar skill rules. RMU would just apply a penalty to the secondary skill (say greater hafted for using a Longbow to parry a melee attack) for the following: skill in greater hafted is in the same category (-50) as missile; and blocking with a longbow in my judgement is similar (-25) to blocking with a quarterstaff. So, an archer can use his longbow to parry a melee attack, but at -75 skill.
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Offline Peter R

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2020, 05:09:11 AM »
I think Hurin's ruling for RMu works for me. RMu has stripped out the movement element of parry in yet more skills.

As an archer and a fencer, I would never even contemplate using a bow as any kind of staff to parry with. If I had to parry with it I would use it to jab at eyes, throat, fingers, wrist, groin or knee. The best match skill, I think, would not be quarterstaff but spear or maybe javelin.
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Offline Aspire2Hope

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2020, 02:40:54 AM »
Peter that seems more reasonable in terms of weapon choice. I will modify my hierarchy of skills for this thankfully relatively rare event.

Offline Hurin

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2020, 10:05:33 AM »
I think Hurin's ruling for RMu works for me.

I didn't know it, but JDale has confirmed that this is actually the official ruling for RMu. Since this is the RM2/RMC forum, I won't discuss it any more here, but just wanted to note that if people want to follow the rest of the discussion (where we talk about dodging), it is on the RMU boards.
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Offline PiXeL01

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Re: Parry or Dodge
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2020, 04:56:13 AM »
The Suitable Terrain option is available in RM2’s Arms Law as well, so theoretically an Archer can use his OB to parry as well as terrain is in his favor.
But I too read somewhere that as long as you have something to party with you can use your largest OB to parry with a penalty. Cannot remember which companion or book though.
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