Topic: Ambush - is it too powerful?

[Druss_the_Legend]

what do you think about the ambush skill?
it seems really good at 10 ranks or more. when combined with rear and surprise modifiers it seems a bit over powered imo.

thoughts?

[Warl]

not really...it is only, at 10 ranks, a 10 point swing on the crit table.

it shows knowledge of target movement and they do have to have surprise

[jdale]

If you think it's too powerful, it's on you as the GM to make the character really work for that surprise attack. The easier it is to achieve a surprise attack, the more potent ambush is.

[Druss_the_Legend]

If you think it's too powerful, it's on you as the GM to make the character really work for that surprise attack. The easier it is to achieve a surprise attack, the more potent ambush is.

agreed. i have a burglar who has shadow hop spell that essentially turns him into nightcrawler from the x-men at night.
i was lenient on orientation checks by him and his targets last time. Will not be quite so easy next time.

[mtpnj]

Don't forget snipping from one of the companions.  That is even more powerful as it is with a bow from a distance.  Never even get seen.  I have a character with about 15 ranks in snipping which is almost a 50% automatic kill.  51 roll plus 15 ranks gets you to 66.

[Peter R]

Don't forget snipping from one of the companions.  That is even more powerful as it is with a bow from a distance.  Never even get seen.  I have a character with about 15 ranks in snipping which is almost a 50% automatic kill.  51 roll plus 15 ranks gets you to 66.

I don't think the sniping skill was thought out very well. In a high tech game then it would be viable but with bows etc., it is a non starter imho.

[RandalThor]

I thought that '66' had to be rolled naturally, that none of the skills/spells/abilities can be used to push the critical there. Is that not the case with RMU?

[Spectre771]

I thought that '66' had to be rolled naturally, that none of the skills/spells/abilities can be used to push the critical there. Is that not the case with RMU?

That's the 'rule' we've always used with RM2.  There were certain 'natural numbers' that had to be rolled and could not be modified to get.  The 66 on a crit was one such roll.  I don't recall reading anything in RMU that stated whether that was allowed.

[jdale]

There's nothing in RMSS/RMFRP forbidding you from modifying the roll to a 66, either. It is explicit that you can modify the roll by any amount up to your number of ranks, up or down. And I just checked in the original Character Law & Campaign Law, the text is the same there.

Treating a 66 result as UM 66, so you can't use Ambush to achieve it, does limit the lethality of Ambush and personally I would be inclined to play that way, but I suspect doing so is a house rule in every edition of RM.

[intothatdarkness]

Don't forget snipping from one of the companions.  That is even more powerful as it is with a bow from a distance.  Never even get seen.  I have a character with about 15 ranks in snipping which is almost a 50% automatic kill.  51 roll plus 15 ranks gets you to 66.

I don't think the sniping skill was thought out very well. In a high tech game then it would be viable but with bows etc., it is a non starter imho.

Sniping the way RM has dealt with it has never been very good, IMO. I've got house rules dealing with it, but to really make sniping effective you need crit tables broken out by hit location.

[Peter R]

Don't forget snipping from one of the companions.  That is even more powerful as it is with a bow from a distance.  Never even get seen.  I have a character with about 15 ranks in snipping which is almost a 50% automatic kill.  51 roll plus 15 ranks gets you to 66.

I just don't use that skill, not in a fantasy setting and for SF I am using HARP SF.

I don't think the sniping skill was thought out very well. In a high tech game then it would be viable but with bows etc., it is a non starter imho.

Sniping the way RM has dealt with it has never been very good, IMO. I've got house rules dealing with it, but to really make sniping effective you need crit tables broken out by hit location.

[Peter R]

There's nothing in RMSS/RMFRP forbidding you from modifying the roll to a 66, either. It is explicit that you can modify the roll by any amount up to your number of ranks, up or down. And I just checked in the original Character Law & Campaign Law, the text is the same there.

Treating a 66 result as UM 66, so you can't use Ambush to achieve it, does limit the lethality of Ambush and personally I would be inclined to play that way, but I suspect doing so is a house rule in every edition of RM.

In the RMC combat companion critical tables there are two 66 results. An UM66 and 66-70 so this is built in.

[jdale]

Interesting, I had not seen that.

[Warl]

Posted this in the wrong thread

another couple house rules option, to help limit sniping and ambush:

#1 bonus is reduced by level of target

#2 limit use of ambush to required anatomy or biology skill. you only get to use a % of ranks bonus to adjust = to % of anatomy/biology skill for that race.

[Peter R]

Interesting, I had not seen that.

This is what a combat table looks like with the UM66 critical.

[Ecthelion]

I thought that '66' had to be rolled naturally, that none of the skills/spells/abilities can be used to push the critical there. Is that not the case with RMU?

As was explained above modifying the roll to 66 using Ambush is not forbidden by the RM2 or RMSS/RMFRP rules. In fact I personally think that the 66 was deliberately added to the critical tables to be used with Ambush.

[damage]

I run a high-level RMFRP campaign with some characters having 30+ ranks in Ambush. So yes, as it is I find it quite overpowered, and have had to introduce some house rules to tone it down...

1. There's not one Ambush skill, there's several. Knowing how to Ambush a Human doesn't translate into knowing how to Ambush a Ghost, for example. I have skills in my game for Ambush : Humanoids (the default Ambush skill), Ambush : Undead, Ambush : Demonic etc. Some characters develop several of these skills, some just one.

2. No Sniping. Ambush is with melee weapons only. For a while I allowed point-blank Ambush with missile weapons, but at higher levels that becomes too strong.

3.  I've also had the Nightcrawler-like character, which is why I rule that teleporting (leaving etc) does not change orientation unless spell mastered to do so. Makes it hard to jump and attack in the same round.

Regards,

 - David.

[Druss_the_Legend]

I run a high-level RMFRP campaign with some characters having 30+ ranks in Ambush. So yes, as it is I find it quite overpowered, and have had to introduce some house rules to tone it down...

1. There's not one Ambush skill, there's several. Knowing how to Ambush a Human doesn't translate into knowing how to Ambush a Ghost, for example. I have skills in my game for Ambush : Humanoids (the default Ambush skill), Ambush : Undead, Ambush : Demonic etc. Some characters develop several of these skills, some just one.

2. No Sniping. Ambush is with melee weapons only. For a while I allowed point-blank Ambush with missile weapons, but at higher levels that becomes too strong.

3.  I've also had the Nightcrawler-like character, which is why I rule that teleporting (leaving etc) does not change orientation unless spell mastered to do so. Makes it hard to jump and attack in the same round.

Regards,

 - David.

thanks for sharing these. im probably going to use the same restriction you have for nightcrawler style attacks, its too strong otherwise. without a restriction like this they can potentially combo-off and keep dropping/killing guys every round. you have given them a chance to master the spell is they invest dev points so thats very fair way of dealing with it imo.

[Spectre771]

As was explained above modifying the roll to 66 using Ambush is not forbidden by the RM2 or RMSS/RMFRP rules. In fact I personally think that the 66 was deliberately added to the critical tables to be used with Ambush.

I've been thinking about this since the thread came to be, and looking back at the gaming sessions we've had over the decades, it would seem this is exactly why "66" was stuck in the middle of the crit tables.  Looking at it with fresh eyes and fresh opinions on the topic, it's given me a new perspective.  We always said (i.e.: house ruled) the 66 had to be an UM because it was so powerful but without this magic number, Ambush is only used to increase the crit roll to hopefully get to the next threshold on the crit table.  Maybe the 85-93 category becomes the 94-100 category* and gets the better result. 

*-I can't recall the exact numbers, just using it as an example here.

The crits can be modified DOWN by Ambush skill and the way we explained it was "maybe you don't want to kill the target, just ambush to incapacitate" so you can modify your high crit to a lower value and hopefully get a less deadly, which we did quite often.  Funnily enough, it didn't always work; high crit, but Ambush skill just not good enough to avoid killing the target.

However, we also used the Ambush skill to set up a successful ambush situation, so this is a skill that we got double use from and it added value to DP investment.  We removed the 66 kill but allowed it as a bonus for setting an ambush in addition to modifying the crit roll.  Again, it was all house ruled, but I think I'll be removing that house rule now.

[rdanhenry]

3.  I've also had the Nightcrawler-like character, which is why I rule that teleporting (leaving etc) does not change orientation unless spell mastered to do so. Makes it hard to jump and attack in the same round.

In RMU, teleportation is explicitly noisy, so except for Magents (with a quieter version) or Absurd Spell Mastery, you'd be giving up surprise by teleporting to your target.