Topic: A Father's Journey - the first post...

[arakish]

General Reply:

Lots of you seem to be saying...you dont need any special rules!

Hmmmm...I am rethinking on that...

My initial response is that's probably right.  But not for everyone and not for some of the groups I mentioned.  So I am going to go ahead with the "feeder" rules.  I think of them this way as they should, after a short period of time (6 to 12 months) feed the newbies into the next level of game system.  I can see how its not for everyone, probably I dont even need it for my 11 yr old and of course I could just "manage" it for the 8 year old.  But darnit, I think the whole point as I want the kids to READ the rules and try to understand them.  I want them to take SOME responsibility for knowing the rules as we should expect every player should.  In fact, I suppose I want them to make a COMMITMENT! No pain, no gain.  BUT, I want it to be EASY to make that commitment - not to get frustrated and give up?

Thoughts?

I never trimmed down the core rules of Rolemaster.  My daughters understood it was a system that is more "believably realistic" than D&D.  They even said it was more like the movies where a simple 5 man team could literally blow through a fortress full of bad guys.

And in all honesty, it is.  Even if you take Aragorn in the Lord of the Rings.  He was at least 40th level, if not 50+, due to his at least 70 years of adventuring and warfare.  What is a bunch of enemies that are, what?, 10th level at max?  Not much.  Most of those enemies were probably only 5th level at max.  But I digress.

It was because my daughters did join us in role playing that most of the role playing was "insinuated."  Nothing was ever described in gruesome detail.  About the worse I would ever get was something like, "You see a blasphemous perversion of human death."  That was enough for everyone, including my daughters, to know they saw something terrible.  Additional rules involved no foul language was permitted, even if such were completely natural for the situation.  Even today, I still find myself saying, "Aw fudge," or, "Durn it," when I actually mean something different.  All know what I mean.

Thus, I would sum it up by saying it all depends upon the kids.  They will determine what they can handle in the game.  And as others have mentioned, we even literally had "cartoon" adventures that were nothing more than a session of constant ROTFLOREO (rolling on the floor laughing our rear ends off).  And to be honest, I think us adults enjoyed such more than my daughters.

rmfr

[GrumpyOldFart]

Additional rules involved no foul language was permitted, even if such were completely natural for the situation.  Even today, I still find myself saying, "Aw fudge," or, "Durn it," when I actually mean something different.  All know what I mean.

As a gift should you choose it, feel free to use a line I stole long ago from Robert Heinlein, for use when I was working in a customer's office and couldn't express myself quite as colorfully as I otherwise might:

"Shucks, and other comments."

You can imagine for yourself what those 'other comments' might consist of. 

[markc]

Another point(s):
 What are you trying to do with RPing with your young'ens? (helping them act, problem solving, fun, another type of game for game night, teaching values, safe environment, its your bis [ie game store])
 What mechanic(s) do you want to use? (Complex or easy)
 How easy are things going to be in terms of skill resolution? Or is there any skill resolution at all?


MDC

[arakish]

"Shucks, and other comments."

And I remember that.  Another I have used is from Larry Niven's Ringworld stories: TANJ (There Ain't No Justice (or nearly)).  I think I may have switched the "A" word with the term we use in the South.  Or, it may have been "ain't".  I haven't read the Ringworld novels since perhaps the mid-80s.

And another more recent addition is from the SciFi Channel's version of Battlestar Galactica: Frak!

Another point(s):
 What are you trying to do with RPing with your young'ens? (helping them act, problem solving, fun, another type of game for game night, teaching values, safe environment, its your bis [ie game store])
 What mechanic(s) do you want to use? (Complex or easy)
 How easy are things going to be in terms of skill resolution? Or is there any skill resolution at all?

MDC

Completely true.  I know one thing my daughters learned was to add numbers up in their head faster than a spreadsheet or calculator.  They also increased their creativity and imagination which in turn increased their artistic talents.  I imagine there was more that role playing using the ICE systems (RM & SM) helped them with, but I cannot remember it right at this moment.

But I will say one thing, role playing will always help more than it will ever hurt.  Excepting those few who lose touch with reality.

rmfr

[markc]

  You can also do things such as have them draw pictures, write stories among other things that they enjoy to solve game "problems".
MDC

[ironmaul]

I remember once my sister GMed a game and she gave out tokens of the magic/special items we had. From memory there was a small wand, a griffons feather, and a small vial...I'm sure there was other things but they are the ones I remember.
If I was to make a kids version of RM, I'd have it as a boxed set filled with plenty of goodies such as dices, character/monster cards, maps etc, kids seem to love that...I know I did as a child(remember the toys you used to get in the cereal boxes). It all depends on the child's age too but I think that the physical award approach could get our young daughters an inspiration to join in worth a try at least?

[markc]

For younger kids a board game may also help it along as it provides some structure to play among themselves.
MDC

[GrumpyOldFart]

Gotta admit, Talisman is popular among most of the younger of my relatives. As is MtG. Given that, the 'quick and easy' solutions for attracting younger gamers might be providing scenery, props, and adventures suitable not only for younger players, but for younger characters.

You might be able to put out a package deal with 'juvenile' (as Heinlein used to call it) adventure modules, that includes a certain amount of "scenery" and props, sufficient for the module contained in the product. Adults may find lots of pieces to get lost annoying, but I suspect kids see it differently.

"Collect 'em all!"

Sheesh, I can't believe I'm allowing those words to come out of my mouth. I hate salesmen.

 

[intothatdarkness]

For younger kids a board game may also help it along as it provides some structure to play among themselves.
MDC

D&D tried something like this back in the day. Does anyone know how well it did/sold?

[John @ ICE]

I remember once my sister GMed a game and she gave out tokens of the magic/special items we had. From memory there was a small wand, a griffons feather, and a small vial...I'm sure there was other things but they are the ones I remember.
If I was to make a kids version of RM, I'd have it as a boxed set filled with plenty of goodies such as dices, character/monster cards, maps etc, kids seem to love that...I know I did as a child(remember the toys you used to get in the cereal boxes). It all depends on the child's age too but I think that the physical award approach could get our young daughters an inspiration to join in worth a try at least?

yeah, if it ever became commerical, i think you put it in a box with a lot of goodies. you could then even have additional goodies on the net.  I purchased the D&D starter box and it comes with dice and colorful card minis but the covers were flimsy and the art was rehashed from the main version a bit.  and I hated the way it explained the system  sucked totally.

[John @ ICE]

You know the zero level harp is a very good idea.  two things for me it might not solve

1) the big rule book intimidation factor
2) the complexity of the game...still

On point two, i'm sold on the fact a 10 or 11 year old can read and understand HARP.  I get that.  I'm not sold on the fact that I thing attention spans are less than what they were and they may not get over 1.  but maybe that was also true in 1979 and why still only 10% of my classmates were playing RPGs...

Interestingly, as thom and i kick around rules and give the "feeder" a try, you may not be able to boil it down and still make it work for it to be materially different than 0-level HARP.

we will see...

I think I might start a sub board at some stage just on the rules, keep that separate from the campaign/modules and overall experience since it seems to be two different parts of the brain!

[GrumpyOldFart]

I'm not sold on the fact that I thing attention spans are less than what they were and they may not get over 1.

I doubt attention spans are actually any shorter.... but I think "the information age" has veered very hard toward rewarding a short attention span and not rewarding longer ones, so I'm not surprised they seem shorter. That and of course the classic, "Back in my day we walked six miles through the snow... uphill... both directions!" The grass is always greener in old people's memories, yours and mine no doubt included.

You know the zero level harp is a very good idea.  two things for me it might not solve

1) the big rule book intimidation factor
2) the complexity of the game...still

On point two, i'm sold on the fact a 10 or 11 year old can read and understand HARP.

Big rule book intimidation factor, I dunno what to tell you. However, not only do I agree with you on point 2, I think one of the benefits of 'zero level adventures' is that it takes some of the complexity out. After all, most of your choices are made by being _____ profession from _____ culture. Spread out the free ranks, with a max skill rank of 3 (well over 50 DPs worth of ranks/talents IIRC.) Okay, you have 50 DPs to spend, still subject to the rank limit, which has already been hit with free (cultural/professional) ranks in most important skills. But note that well over half of "character development" was not spending DPs, but just 2 choices, profession and culture.

Sounds to me like chargen will be
1) Pick race/profession/culture, put those ranks where you want them
2) Spend 50 DPs, which I suspect will mostly be talents, with a few frills around the edges to make up what professional/cultural ranks didn't quite cover to your satisfaction.

You're done. By the time you roll your first 1st level character at age 13, you've done the above a couple of times and learned a lot of the HARP system 'by osmosis'.

The biggest obstacle I see to the idea is expanding the low-level end of the bestiary to include more things that zero level characters can face and overcome.

[markc]

 In RMSS I use a youth, adol and apprent as the various stages of PC gen. With me noting where the skill ranks go do to background, race and social status. This works well as it provides a basis for the later adol and apprent "levels".
MDC

[JimiSue]

I doubt attention spans are actually any shorter.... but I think "the information age" has veered very hard toward rewarding a short attention span and not rewarding longer ones, so I'm not surprised they seem shorter.

I know that now, pushing 42 in less than a month, my attention span is pitiful. The last movie I've been to see at the cinema was Hancock, and that was only because the date wanted to see it - I just don't have the ability to sit still for that length of time.

But - fantasy roleplaying still holds my attention, and I started when I was like 9 or 10 - because in a game something is *always* happening. Maybe not directly involving your character, but it's still happening to your group. So you alternate between watching the drama/comedy and being a participant in same.

So, is the problem really short attention spans, or is it getting them to the point where they can empathise with other players enough to be interested in what happens to their characters? A friend of mine has a son who is about 15 now, and he's an OK player - a bit power-mad but that's an adolescent thing he will grow out of. This is a marked difference to when he was 12 and he only seemed able to frame anything in its impact upon his character - in the intervening three years he started to develop some of the empathy required. That kid is a bit of a brat though, and girls are better at the empathy thing, so I'm sure you will be fine

Also seen in this thread was a question about the board game. I have played that and it works nicely as an introduction to the simpler mechanics of the d20 system. The weird thing is, the friend mentioned just above, his wife loves GMing the board game, but point blank refuses to take the next step, saying roleplaying is for losers. Also lovesd fantasy series on TV and playing games like Baldur's Gate on the PS. So we keep on reminding her that actually, she's run the board game, she's already a roleplayer, so she may as well embrace her inner nerd No luck so far, but she could crack yet

[ubiquitousrat]

Hi

I run. A regular hobby club for pupils at my school, aged around 11-12. I have also run RPG sessions including children down to about 8 yrs old.

My tips are simple:
- Choose your poison (read: rules) to suit you. Don't worry too much about complexity, just be mindful of how the game flows in play.
- Don't give them a rulebook. Show them it, see them go "wow, that's a big book", and then intro the game.
- Start with a simple linear adventure using pregen heroes, just for speed. Give them choice and allow customisation in details, but stay off rules. I use a short, and I mean short, dungeon.
- Assuming they enjoy the dungeon, they will want to play more and have their own hero. I allow them to keep the pregen or make their own.
- Offer reduced choices to suit your setting. I limit it to core book professions and races.
- Allow them to go nuts with concepts and them narrow it down to something playable.
- Intro the rules slowly, again dropping non-essential options. One tip, though, is to make the books sort of sacred. "You can read it when you are ready, young Padawan."
- Encourage less able, or younger kids, to lean on the smarter ones if they need help with maths or remembering rules. Children will absorb the rules you teach them as you play, as long as you take time to answer questions and are prepared to repeat instructions.
- When learning rules, talk them through the core rules as you need them. Repeat the first couple of times, taking it slow, showing them where info is on the sheet. After a third run through start asking them to tell you what they need to do, watch them figure it out, and soon they will learn the rules.
- Listen to them if they ask about what's possible. What sells my guys on FtF RPGs is two things: they can do anything we agree on; they decide what the setting will be like.

Oh, and with planning, I strongly recommend reading "Never Unprepared" by Engine Games.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
UbiRat

[John @ ICE]

Thanks ubiquitousrat!  some very helpful points. the penultimate is excellent advice and will need to put that into practice.

this process works for the parents with kids (or "expert" with newbies) approach.  I think you are right about showing the book and I might modify by saying "you can read it if you like, but you dont have too"

I still need to think about kids playing with kids and teaching themselves in terms of rules.

my first adventure is a little less structured, so maybe i am taking a risk there. I'm going to keep your points in mind to make sure they cant get that lost or frustrated.

[jdale]

I still need to think about kids playing with kids and teaching themselves in terms of rules.

I got the blue-cover pre-"Basic Set" D&D when I was... less than 10 years old I think? And played with my friends (no adults). Looking back, we got many, many things wrong. And were horrible munchkins. Still had a good time though.

I don't think 10-year-old me could have handled RM on my own. That was high school. Or maybe middle school, it was a long time ago.

One issue we had as kids was the GM. I think a better design for kids would be a game they can play through without a GM (or optional GM). You could probably set up a module where each encounter explains the rules you need to know for that encounter. It would end up being half adventure, half tutorial. Could be a great intro product. Add some pregenerated characters, provide choices but don't have it too reliant on surprises and it can be reused - kids are more tolerant of retelling the same story than adults are, I think.

[intothatdarkness]

I still need to think about kids playing with kids and teaching themselves in terms of rules.

I got the blue-cover pre-"Basic Set" D&D when I was... less than 10 years old I think? And played with my friends (no adults). Looking back, we got many, many things wrong. And were horrible munchkins. Still had a good time though.

I don't think 10-year-old me could have handled RM on my own. That was high school. Or maybe middle school, it was a long time ago.

One issue we had as kids was the GM. I think a better design for kids would be a game they can play through without a GM (or optional GM). You could probably set up a module where each encounter explains the rules you need to know for that encounter. It would end up being half adventure, half tutorial. Could be a great intro product. Add some pregenerated characters, provide choices but don't have it too reliant on surprises and it can be reused - kids are more tolerant of retelling the same story than adults are, I think.

A number of games did something like this (GW's version of Judge Dredd, TSR's Gangbusters, one module of Boot Hill, just to name the ones I remember off the top of my head). It was something of an outgrowth of the "Choose Your Own Adventure" books (which I think TSR had some interest in back in the 1980s), and did work fairly well. Judge Dredd's in particular was, I though, pretty well done. It introduced some RP concepts as well as game rules.

[GrumpyOldFart]

I still need to think about kids playing with kids and teaching themselves in terms of rules.

I got the blue-cover pre-"Basic Set" D&D when I was... less than 10 years old I think? And played with my friends (no adults). Looking back, we got many, many things wrong. And were horrible munchkins. Still had a good time though.

These same kids are keeping track of Magic cards. These same kids figured out Transformers without help. Paint with a broader brush than you would for an adult, but don't worry about them being turned off by complexity. If it's fun, the complexity will add to it.

"How did you....? Oh that's cool...."

The ones who are best at finding those cool little details will become GMs.

[ironmaul]

My son plays Magic with our group...even my daughter has a go of it...considering she used to say that she never would. I'm hoping in time she'll change her mind as with RM or any rpg.