Topic: A Father's Journey - the first post...

[John @ ICE]

This forum is more of a diary or “blog” of the process of starting an RPG group with my kids.  I suppose thee place to start is to give you all a little background info.  I suppose in many ways I’m the typical parent: a loving wife and two good kids, a fairly time intensive job, but I’m the boss, so I have a little more control.  I’m American, but I have lived in London for 12 years.  Enjoying the Olympics right now – massive buzz in the city and since I get to root for two teams (US and GB), I have a lot to cheer about!

Perhaps atypically, I happened to buy a game company, ICE, out of bankruptcy in 2001.  At the time, I thought I could get the investment back and with a little luck, convert some IP into the electronic medium and maybe make some good money, however I considered this a long shot.  But an equal consideration was I thought it would allow me to indulge in a big way into my main hobby and a real creative passion – RPGs – when I retired, and if I could find a licensee to husband the company and hopefully improve it, I could slowly work my way into it.  Well, it didn’t exactly go as planned, but I hope its back on track for the slow but steady growth where the IP and really the ICE community as whole will begin to grow stronger again.

But that’s more the business end of it, and really only interesting from a “meta-game” level.  I want to be part of the creative process, too, and of course, I want to play!

Now, at 45 years of age, I have not been able to do that much in the last couple years. I was last running a HARP campaign.  And so I have been mulling how best, how efficiently can I get back to playing WITHOUT taking away from family time, which would immediately trigger repercussions with the lovely wife...

hmmm....play....with....my....KIDS!

Yeah, that’s the ticket!

Oh – and my wife has been invited to play too (she claims she played D&D in the past, but I’m skeptical ).  I’m just worried she will do it out of the need to feel that she must participate, but we all know what it’s like to have a player around a table who is not stoked to be there!

Gigi and Charley, ages 11 and 8, are my two daughters. They are avid readers, have active imaginations, love Harry Potter and I have managed to get them into fantasy reading and movies, as well as doing some “LARPing”  when we take woodland walks in the English countryside (I almost always get to play the ogre or the orc...)

S o, despite a busy schedule, about a year ago, I started to think that they would be the right ages to start playing this summer – Charley is a little young, but I think she can manage it.

The first step was starting to work out with Thom, also a member of the Aurigas team and my brother-in-law for those who don’t know, on how this might work in the context of ICE products.  So we have been kicking back and forth a way to distil the best of HARP / RM into a VERY BASIC set of rules designed to “just start role-playing”.  We are not done yet but getting there.  I don’t know if I will focus too much on that process, but rather the “getting the campaign ready” and “getting the adventure modules ready stuff” more.  I also intend this to be a record of how the hobby fits into daily life and family life and track how it works, and hopefully to elicit suggestions from others.  Maybe then it can become a useful guide to others.

I plan to try to post about once every one to two weeks. And I will be tracking the board and looking to engage...of course, when I can find the time to do so!

[GrumpyOldFart]

Back in the day, I personally considered AD&D to be so streamlined and basic that yes, you could teach a 10 year old how to be a good gamer. And yes, I'd love to see an ICE game that is so basic you can teach your kids (or in my case, my great nephews) the fun of RPGs.

That said, I think of granularity and the ability to make the system fit the GM's world concept to be the core of ICE games. This seems consistent to me through all incarnations of RM and HARP. So while I know for certain an RPG could be made simple and streamlined to the point where your 10 year old can be a 'full' player (I've played one that simple myself, after all), I think the real neat trick would be making it that simple and streamlined and still have the robust modularity that makes it recognizable as an ICE product.

[JimiSue]

A friend of mine from college and a very gifted roleplayer, is constantly working on systems and mechanisms. I mention this because he has a similar issue although his boys are a little younger and last time I spoke to him about it he was constructing a system that he could use to indoctrin... I mean, introduce his kids into the hobby. I'll point him towards this thread

[WoeRie]

You should talk with your german partners from 13mann.de. They created a d10 system called Aborea, which is so increadible easy and still has a feeling of RM/HARP (at least with some fantasy and good will). The only thing which I'm missing are the critical hits... but... I know... we want to play with Kids, so it's better to keep the fights a bit more abstract

I will go on holiday tomorrow and we have the box with us. We will try to play it with my 8 year son in the evenings. I hope this works

[Langthorne]

Don't underestimate the kids. I have introduced RM to loads of kids over the years and I have found that they can pick it up pretty quickly, especially if they are given loads of guidance and support early in the process.

The big proviso is that they need to be strong readers and have pretty good mental arithmetic - but playing will improve those skills anyway.

The best place to start is to give them a setting and ask them what sort of character they would like to play. Let them go nuts with detail and flights of fancy, and then gradually pare down the ideas into something that fits the system and scenario. Generally, they start out wanting to be good at everything, but it doesn't take them long to come to terms with the reality of the game and how characters develop. Having at least one quirky or unique trait (within the party) makes them happy to have a niche.

Best of luck!

[Kristen Mork]

Don't underestimate the kids. I have introduced RM to loads of kids over the years and I have found that they can pick it up pretty quickly, especially if they are given loads of guidance and support early in the process.

The big proviso is that they need to be strong readers and have pretty good mental arithmetic - but playing will improve those skills anyway.

The best place to start is to give them a setting and ask them what sort of character they would like to play. Let them go nuts with detail and flights of fancy, and then gradually pare down the ideas into something that fits the system and scenario. Generally, they start out wanting to be good at everything, but it doesn't take them long to come to terms with the reality of the game and how characters develop. Having at least one quirky or unique trait (within the party) makes them happy to have a niche.

Best of luck!

I concur, my daughter started playing Rolemaster with us at a young age.  Like Langthorne said, the key was to let her go nuts with detail and flights of fancy (easily done with an Illusionist).  Over time, she's fully embraced the rules.

[arakish]

I agree with Langthorne and Peter Mork.

While they were still alive, my twin daughters were so fascinated with what mommy and daddy were doing with all the college students.  At the age of nine, I finally told them.  Initially, I gave them the original 1978 (79?) editions of D&D books I had and told them to look them over.

After a couple of weeks, they came back and said, "So you, mommy, and those other people are play-acting."  I explained that in a sense, yes, it was like playing "army", "cowboys and indians", etc.  They said they wanted to do it also to play.  By the time my daughters were 10 years old, they were role playing with mommy and daddy and the others.

As both have said, don't sell kids short.  With the right teachers, they can understand a system as complete and flexible as RM.

However, even I have to admit that the lure of electronic role playing is powerful.  You can literally get on-line and instantly jump into a game and role play.  There is always players available somewhere in this world.  You don't have to worry about fitting your schedule with others in your local region.  You just jump on-line anytime you wish to role play and you are role playing.

In fact, although I hate saying so, I think the table top role playing will eventually vanish.  Role playing will all be done through the medium of cyberspace.

I read the "Proclaimations from the Crown" by Thom@ICE.  I have to agree with him.  You cannot look at anybody now days without seeing them so immersed into their "social networking" they literally have no clue as to where they are.  I cannot begin to number the times I have seen persons walk into trees, walk into other persons, I even sat and watched one stupid girl paying so much attention to her cell phone, she literally walked into and fell into the Duck Pond at UNM.  Of course, she was angry at me for laughing at her.  But I could not help it.  When I am walking from point A to point B (from class to bus stop, or vice versa) I read a book while walking.  However, I keep a close watch on my surroundings to the point that I have never walked into any kind of undesired situation, such as the Duck Pond.  This is a good example of my practicing the skill Spatial Location Awareness, and these stupid yunguns today do not.

The big problem of today is to get the yunguns to put away those electronic devices and somehow get them to understand that the FtF role playing is much more fun than what some idiot halfway across the globe thinks of their facebook page. 

I hate to say so, but I am really old school.  I much prefer FtF games over any other way of role playing.  I do admit that I made a facebook page, but I have not logged into that page for over two or more years.  I really think facebook sucks.  And as far as all other social networking, poppycock.  I won't use it.  Of all of it, I much prefer the forum boards over anything else.  Of course, I like the forum boards because I use to log into the old BBS and FidoNet boards beginning back in 1984.  Forum boards of today, like this one, are exactly the same as the ones back then.  Just that with the WWW, you can almost get instant results, providing everyone posting in that thread are lurking in the thread waiting for new posts.

I think I have ranted long enough.  My main point is do not underestimate children.  I started role playing way back in 1974 when I got the very first D&D Basic Boxed Set for my 13th birthday.  That puts me having role played for 38 years!  Even I still find it hard to believe it has been that long.  Do like I did with my daughters when they showed interest.  Let them look through the books at their pace.  Answer their questions, show them how it is done when they are ready.  But don't try to cram it on them.  As soon as they seem to be stupified, take a break and let them mull it over on their own.  And you may just be surprised.

rmfr

[pastaav]

Personally I think the "for kids suiting" bit is more connected to the setting than the game system. A forgiving a setting where you can fool around and receive superior healing if you screw up solves most issues. In some sense you need to make the game closer to cartoon style than "you did not anticipate the ambush...bleed to death in 12 rounds". 

I used to run RM for newbies and had participants around the age of 11 and 12 even though the majority of the players was older. The older player did the full character development themselves while the younger used one of the computer programs.

All in all I think the key to success was when dealing with the younger players I make sure the adventures had a clear structure. The older players enjoyed being fooled by the NPC and finding games within games while the younger players preferred when the adventure developed along the party-line of the adventure. The gaming system, that you as the GM manage anyway, is very a seldom a problem in practice.

[ironmaul]

I lent my three RMC books to a D&D mate a fortnight ago, and today was the first time in many years that I have played RM. Also my wife and son Blake(10) played as well...my daughter is still not fussed on it yet, she's almost 9. I was sitting beside my son with the Arms Law book doing the hits and critical's while showing him how its done and also explaining the workings on his character sheet (just heard him now in the background saying to my wife how awesome RM is, LOL). We let him give suggestions on plans of attack and how to resolve certain issues and suggestions on what questions to ask NPC's. Of course most of the time we needed to guide him but being his real first game he did rather well I thought. Kids are not as dopey as some might think, it's guidance they need and eventually they'll need less and less and sooner they'll start to think rationally.

I suggested to our GM to pre make our characters. We chose what we wanted to play (we let our son choose first)and I emailed him the basic details. So when he arrived we where able to play straight away. I think letting the child have a character at the beginning already made with the basics is a good starting point...there's no bog down on character generation cutting into game time. I found as we where in game in a little time he started to know what his character was best at and not so good at.

Now, at 45 years of age, I have not been able to do that much in the last couple years. I was last running a HARP campaign.  And so I have been mulling how best, how efficiently can I get back to playing WITHOUT taking away from family time, which would immediately trigger repercussions with the lovely wife...

hmmm....play....with....my....KIDS!

Yeah, that’s the ticket!

Yep, that just about sums it up for me too. Although after my wife watched the ''Once Upon a Time'' TV series, she actually wanted to role-play again!

[Thom @ ICE]

I read the "Proclaimations from the Crown" by Thom@ICE.  I have to agree with him. 

Just to clarify... All Proclamations from the Crown come from John.  I simply executed the posting/sending/website update. 

[vroomfogle]

Man, I really need to get started playing with my kids (2 girls, ages 9 and 7).  I keep meaning to, and they have been exposed as my group and I play weekly at my house.   My oldest Kaley is interested and an avid reader (read all Harry Potter, Sisters Grimm, Narnia, trying to get her to read the Hobbit before the movie).  My youngest Maizy not so much (she's into princesses, barbies and clothes).

However the funny thing is that it's Maizy who is into creative play.   She'll play on her own or with others and come up with the most imaginative things.  So Roleplaying is definitely in her wheelhouse as it were, it's really more about subject matter.

So the challenge for me, and all the rest of you out there with kids who might not be interested in Swords, Sorcerery, and Monsters, is to run a game about something they are interested in.   I'm not about to run a game about Barbies, but Princesses, Faeries?  Sure!   There's lots of possibilities out there, I just need to step outside Shadow World and Mystara and be more creative. 

Great post John.  Maybe what we need for RM is some kid friendly adventures, with different and varies subject matter.   Troll Lord Games as a single small book stripped down version of Castles & Crusades where you play squirrels, mice, rabbits, complete with an adventure in Wheat Hollow.  It's quite good.

Having actually products targeting that age group, with RM or HARP, is like an investment on the future.   Maybe an adventure focused around a group of young kids: kids love stories about other kids, see Harry Potter, Spy Kids, Young Sherlock Holmes (ok that one's a little dated but still good).  Playing adult heroes is well and good, but I think what will better capture their attention are fantastic heroes that are kids.

[John @ ICE]

You should talk with your german partners from 13mann.de. They created a d10 system called Aborea, which is so increadible easy and still has a feeling of RM/HARP (at least with some fantasy and good will). The only thing which I'm missing are the critical hits... but... I know... we want to play with Kids, so it's better to keep the fights a bit more abstract

I will go on holiday tomorrow and we have the box with us. We will try to play it with my 8 year son in the evenings. I hope this works

It MUST have crits!  There is nothing more exciting than open ended rolls, come on!  You cant lose that. All you need to do is change the descriptions (and simplify the outcomes).  but having that heroic, one-swing win is key.

Let us know what you have discovered in your game.  Which box BTW - Arborea?

[John @ ICE]

Don't underestimate the kids. I have introduced RM to loads of kids over the years and I have found that they can pick it up pretty quickly, especially if they are given loads of guidance and support early in the process.

The big proviso is that they need to be strong readers and have pretty good mental arithmetic - but playing will improve those skills anyway.

The best place to start is to give them a setting and ask them what sort of character they would like to play. Let them go nuts with detail and flights of fancy, and then gradually pare down the ideas into something that fits the system and scenario. Generally, they start out wanting to be good at everything, but it doesn't take them long to come to terms with the reality of the game and how characters develop. Having at least one quirky or unique trait (within the party) makes them happy to have a niche.

Best of luck!

Good stuff.  I have a specific setting in mind and a first adventure (which starts in their home town) but I am going to give them lots of flexibility of who they can choose from in terms of background.  But, because its in a town of humans, they will all start as humans, and, as was recommended by someone (and then I asked the kids) they dont want to play adults but do want to play teenagers (maybe a little to much of watching the Disney channel...)

I agree with your earlier point.  somehow when I was in summer of 6th to 7th grade, I managed to sit myself down and over the course of a day and a half on a weekend read the AD&D players hand book. And I mostly got it - without the help of a parent.  But then I had the time to do it - it was summer break and I was not allowed to stay in a watch TV and there were no video games (not like an xbox anyway). so the choices were - sports, go the beach, AD&D or get in trouble.

So, adding in Grumpy's sentiments - yes streamlined, but not dumbed down.  Modularity, yes, but when its all a bit to simple, wont they just move on the HARP and RM and find the detail and modularity there?  I suppose what I want really is game that:

1) is for parents who are not expert RPGrs to play with their kids (so its easy for them to learn understand)
2) for younger kids (lets say under 11 yrs of age, so maybe 4th, 5th or 6th grade) to figure out how to play with their friends without a parent (maybe ambitious at 4th grade for the avg. kid, but not for those smart ones you know).
3) or for a parent who is a really good RPGr and can pretty much adjudicate anything that may come up (I assume here the parent is the GM) that the rules dont cover with "common sense" and RPG experience. So, that's me.  I dont need rules for falling damage or encumbrance.  I know the mage cant carry a full large chest of gold.  I dont need rules for that, other than "the rule of thumb".  so what I need is the basic framework thats easy to work with but also for the kids to read, understand and start playing.  And I suppose, because i'm cautious, I'm assuming that they need to be able to learn it quick or I will lose their attention and off they go.  Now, I'm probably not giving kids enough credit, which you seem to be saying.

[John @ ICE]

Man, I really need to get started playing with my kids (2 girls, ages 9 and 7).  I keep meaning to, and they have been exposed as my group and I play weekly at my house.   My oldest Kaley is interested and an avid reader (read all Harry Potter, Sisters Grimm, Narnia, trying to get her to read the Hobbit before the movie).  My youngest Maizy not so much (she's into princesses, barbies and clothes).

However the funny thing is that it's Maizy who is into creative play.   She'll play on her own or with others and come up with the most imaginative things.  So Roleplaying is definitely in her wheelhouse as it were, it's really more about subject matter.

So the challenge for me, and all the rest of you out there with kids who might not be interested in Swords, Sorcerery, and Monsters, is to run a game about something they are interested in.   I'm not about to run a game about Barbies, but Princesses, Faeries?  Sure!   There's lots of possibilities out there, I just need to step outside Shadow World and Mystara and be more creative. 

Great post John.  Maybe what we need for RM is some kid friendly adventures, with different and varies subject matter.   Troll Lord Games as a single small book stripped down version of Castles & Crusades where you play squirrels, mice, rabbits, complete with an adventure in Wheat Hollow.  It's quite good.

Having actually products targeting that age group, with RM or HARP, is like an investment on the future.   Maybe an adventure focused around a group of young kids: kids love stories about other kids, see Harry Potter, Spy Kids, Young Sherlock Holmes (ok that one's a little dated but still good).  Playing adult heroes is well and good, but I think what will better capture their attention are fantastic heroes that are kids.

Wow Matt, the descriptions of your oldest and youngest are virtual carbon copies of my oldest and youngest!  And you are absolutely right, I think the campaign has to appeal and the adventures (picking up on other comments here) have to be a little more "set" and linear.  I'm hoping that I got that right.  I will be explaining more of where I am at with the setting in soem posts in the near future.

And believe me, its tough to get started, so dont get down on your self.  I'm trying hard, but I'm still only getting 3 to 4 hrs of work in a week on it.  I'm waaaay behind.  I wanted to be gaming by this summer break which was mid July and I still have weeks of work to do at the pace I am going.  But dont give up! like every GM sitting down to write a new adventure, just sit down and start, every couple of days, and it will happen!

[John @ ICE]

General Reply:

Lots of you seem to be saying...you dont need any special rules!

Hmmmm...I am rethinking on that...

My initial response is that's probably right.  But not for everyone and not for some of the groups I mentioned.  So I am going to go ahead with the "feeder" rules.  I think of them this way as they should, after a short period of time (6 to 12 months) feed the newbies into the next level of game system.  I can see how its not for everyone, probably I dont even need it for my 11 yr old and of course I could just "manage" it for the 8 year old.  But darnit, I think the whole point as I want the kids to READ the rules and try to understand them.  I want them to take SOME responsibility for knowing the rules as we should expect every player should.  In fact, I suppose I want them to make a COMMITMENT! No pain, no gain.  BUT, I want it to be EASY to make that commitment - not to get frustrated and give up?

Thoughts?

[markc]

Man, I really need to get started playing with my kids (2 girls, ages 9 and 7).  I keep meaning to, and they have been exposed as my group and I play weekly at my house.   My oldest Kaley is interested and an avid reader (read all Harry Potter, Sisters Grimm, Narnia, trying to get her to read the Hobbit before the movie).  My youngest Maizy not so much (she's into princesses, barbies and clothes).
....
So the challenge for me, and all the rest of you out there with kids who might not be interested in Swords, Sorcerery, and Monsters, is to run a game about something they are interested in.   I'm not about to run a game about Barbies, but Princesses, Faeries?  Sure!   There's lots of possibilities out there, I just need to step outside Shadow World and Mystara and be more creative. 

 Why not use the Once Upon a Time series talked about above as an example? Or even start with fairly tales from the old books and let the kids RP what they would do on each page.
MDC

[vroomfogle]

markc

Why not use the Once Upon a Time series talked about above as an example? Or even start with fairly tales from the old books and let the kids RP what they would do on each page.
MDC

Using old fairy tales - that's an excellent idea!   We've actually read a lot of old fairy tales and I think they would both enjoy that a lot!

[GrumpyOldFart]

Feel free to shoot this idea down. I have my own little group of playtesters that I tend to refer to as "the piranha tank", so if an idea of mine has extra bits asking to be chewed up, or places where it's leaking vital fluids and chumming the waters, well, don't hold back. I'm used to it.

But, because its in a town of humans, they will all start as humans, and, as was recommended by someone (and then I asked the kids) they dont want to play adults but do want to play teenagers (maybe a little to much of watching the Disney channel...)

Given that HARP is in many ways a... well perhaps not really simpler, but more straightforward version of RM, perhaps an initial solution is finding ways to have adventures suitable for Level Zero HARP characters.

Surely any of us who have (or are even ever around someone who has) kids have seen enough kids' TV and kids' movies to have seen examples of how this is done. The parents never believe what the real problem is, so the kids have to go take care of things themselves.

Thoughts?

[JimiSue]

I was actually thinking the same thing as Grumps. Long time ago (1st edition AD&D) I played a game where all the PCs started out as 0 level. We were scratch members of the town militia, and had to go and deal with some lizardmen because the Waterdeep militia were fighting elsewhere. The idea was that we did our actions based on the character classes we hoped to attain.

RM is even better suited to that (assuming that the RM2 mechanics of having a 'development/adolescence level' and starting at 10k xp at level 1 are still in place!). I know it was a ton of fun, and linked in with a plot along the lines of <insert name of generic Disney film here> where the kids end up saving the world while their smiling, tolerant and frankly blind parents look on indulgently, I can imagine a group of little gamers having a blast.

edit - and +1 idea point to the grumpy one

[arakish]

I read the "Proclaimations from the Crown" by Thom@ICE.  I have to agree with him. 

Just to clarify... All Proclamations from the Crown come from John.  I simply executed the posting/sending/website update. 

And I officially apologize for the confusion.  Thank you for the correction.  Sorry for any confusion.

rmfr