Author Topic: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement  (Read 14722 times)

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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2011, 09:43:45 PM »
Imagine Wizards going back and creating AD&D 2.5  Heh.

I can't claim to know, since it is decades since I've played any of the versions, but from what I've been told by those I know who have played them, they'd have been better advised to clean up 3.0 or 3.5 than to ever have produced 4.0.

 ;D
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Offline rdanhenry

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2011, 09:59:11 PM »
No, but they ended up giving Kenzer & Co. license to do it as Hackmaster. That was fairly well received. (And eventually done in mainly by the fact that it was a license, rather than the IP-owning company making the game.)
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Offline Draeck

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2011, 11:11:03 PM »
 I think that most  if not all of the writers on this forum have their own ideas about what should  be in RM. At best we could get a majority on what the game should have. If a new version comes out most of us will have something we dont like in it and therefore modify the game with house rules. We can give our ideas and hope to make our voices heard towards what is in the new version.

 We want to have archives and PDF's for the old versions.

 But " a new version"  that is unified with an "identifiable" core set of rules that new players can  easily buy, that can be advertised for to build up the player base, that new additions can developed for, to make a profit for ICE; all this needs to happen for RM not to become some forgotten set of scribblings.

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #63 on: February 20, 2011, 08:00:32 AM »
I don't think dropping support for either RM or Harp is the answer. I think a re-write of RM would go a long way to at least allowing the poor folks who run ICE to focus their efforts on a single product line for RM; the Shadow World Players Guide has been well recived (at least in reviews).  I would personally fallow it up with a SW game. You could essentially use the RMX format; leave out the silly stuff like equipment tables & treasures etc; and add a setting like the Bay if Izar.  Use a free PDF for any extras (such as the affor mentioned Equipments).  Set up a separate web page for it and introduce it as its own game.

I would change HARP over to a pure D20 system & thin out the skills a lot if the intention is to position it as an alternative to D&D.  Its a very good game over-all; but seems to suffer from a "little brother" syndrome where it is always compared to RM.
Another suggestion would be to get into the Super Hero games; the players tend to be younger and obviously have some interest in adventure genre....
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2011, 08:20:54 AM »
Another suggestion would be to get into the Super Hero games; the players tend to be younger and obviously have some interest in adventure genre....

Don't necessary read anything into this comment coming from me, but I have asked for SHARP - Super-Hero Action Role Playing for about 4-5 years now....   ;D

This summer there will be about 3 or 4 major super-hero movies coming out so the timing would probably be great, but right now Green Ronin has a tight grip on that market with their Mutants & Masterminds products and ICE and GCP have a lot of other projects currently being worked on.
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Offline Cory Magel

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2011, 11:29:55 AM »
Imagine Wizards going back and creating AD&D 2.5  Heh.

I can't claim to know, since it is decades since I've played any of the versions, but from what I've been told by those I know who have played them, they'd have been better advised to clean up 3.0 or 3.5 than to ever have produced 4.0.

 ;D

I think if Peter was still in control of WotC you'd see different results than Hasbo's tactics.  They just don't get the RPG market imo.
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Offline markc

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2011, 12:31:55 PM »
 I like the name. SHARP.
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Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2011, 12:33:46 PM »
Would that make a fan of the game system a sharpie?

 :o

In fairness, I suppose a sharpie is the perfect tool to create your comic book superhero with...

 ;D
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Offline Thom @ ICE

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2011, 02:46:43 PM »
If you do have any thoughts about how to create a HARP based Super Hero game, I'd be glad to discuss the concept offline with you. Just email me.
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Offline frnchqrtr

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #69 on: February 20, 2011, 09:37:53 PM »
@pastaav: I have no fundamental disagreement with resolving RM2 & RMSS.  As long as I have my precious weapon & crit tables, then I'm a happy camper.   :)
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Offline smug

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2011, 08:03:03 PM »
I think that it is possible to make a new RM edition that include all the essence of RMC and RMSS in it. My greatest problem with RMC is not that I think it is bad system but that I think it miss some of the vital improvements that happened in the transition to RMSS. The irony of it is that RMC is championend as the game of options, but it is still lacking the options needed to make it like RMSS.

Because at least some of those were already published, surely, in Companions and the original authors own those rights?

That argument does not make sense. The options that was used to make RMSS is by nature included in RMSS and thus free to use. There are of course options from RM2 companions that never made into RMSS and those can't be used, but that is clearly a separate issue.

My understanding is that they were, in their Companion form, subject to all the same problems all the other work-for-hire was, that copyright no longer resides with ICE. As to why they were able to incorporate stuff into RMSS that was trailed in RM 2 Companions, I guess they worked something out, or it was different enough, or being embedded in a new complete game was the difference, or something like that.

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One of the major reasons we had the flame wars about edition in the RM2 to RMSS switch was the RM editor had his vision about unifying everyones game to use same set of options. Instead of working with making the users get an educated choice about what to use and why his set of options was superior he worked hard to hide the possible options and get one rule book to rule them all. This was the first bad decision that fractured the fan-base. The second bad decision was RMC that reformated RM2 to be more modern, but failed to include the good additions from RMSS.

RMC was RM2 republished (including new layout), surely? Not RM2-evolved, or something like that (and where would we get agreement on which were "the good additions")? RMC is what it is, which is effectively almost exactly the same as RM2, which is what people like me -- RM2 fans -- wanted, our game back in print.

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That is exactly the problem. RM2 was revised into RMC to make people like you happy when it could have been revised into something that did not alienate the RMSS crowd but still made you happy. Perhaps you can argue that your RM2 rules must not get a increased page count due to RMSS inspired options (IMHO it does not make sense since some options from RMSS made it into RMC). Anyhow that could easily be solved by having those options in a separate booklet that you could avoid to buy if you can't stand the thought of paying for RMSS material.

My issue was that until RMC, my game was dead, no searchable pdfs, no hard copy, no nothing. My game is RM2. The upshot was that I ended up in the same situation as the RMSS/FRP fans, having a game in searchable, digital form with (at the time) the possibility of ordering hard copy. If that "alienates" the RMSS crowd, then I'm sorry for that, but I just wanted to have a game that I could point players at again.

If they had space to chuck some new options in that they owned -- and, as I say, I don't think a direct lift from Rolemaster Companions then so long as they had all the original game in, I don't care.

I don't mind paying for RMSS, I have a complete set. I just don't like GMing or playing it (which I mostly discovered after buying it, although my completism did kick in).

Quote
As for the problem of choosing what options that was good, what is the problem really? Do you argue that RM2 fans are not able to handle having extra options listed?  What would the harm be if other game groups liked the RMSS inspired options?

My point was merely that as all additions couldn't be put in, we'd all have additions we'd prefer to see in.

Offline rdanhenry

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2011, 10:27:57 PM »
I think that it is possible to make a new RM edition that include all the essence of RMC and RMSS in it. My greatest problem with RMC is not that I think it is bad system but that I think it miss some of the vital improvements that happened in the transition to RMSS. The irony of it is that RMC is championend as the game of options, but it is still lacking the options needed to make it like RMSS.

Because at least some of those were already published, surely, in Companions and the original authors own those rights?

That argument does not make sense. The options that was used to make RMSS is by nature included in RMSS and thus free to use. There are of course options from RM2 companions that never made into RMSS and those can't be used, but that is clearly a separate issue.

My understanding is that they were, in their Companion form, subject to all the same problems all the other work-for-hire was, that copyright no longer resides with ICE. As to why they were able to incorporate stuff into RMSS that was trailed in RM 2 Companions, I guess they worked something out, or it was different enough, or being embedded in a new complete game was the difference, or something like that.

You can take a few ideas from anywhere and be fine, unless you're careless. Copyright does not protect ideas, only their specific expression. (It's actually easier to take ideas from a game that's quite different, as converting them already gets a good start on expressing it in your own words. A well-worded RM2 rule becomes much harder to restate as an RMC rule. The RMSS versions of the optional material it absorbed was mostly restated (it was core material that tended to be copied verbatim and updated (and occasionally missed something that should have been updated). Also, the copyright issues did not exist when RMSS was created, because those arose because of the reversion of rights during the bankruptcy.
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2011, 11:00:32 PM »
The idea that matters most is removing the excessive number of charts in the game.

Other mechanics can be invented that maintain the flavor and critical based combat that RM is well liked for.  The Chart master moniker must be addressed and killed.

Even the mnv tables can go.  They are excessive and belong in compnaions so that those who want them can buy them and use them.  A target number system of some sort will solve the table problem.  The new system needs to allow all combat info the player needs to be writen on his character sheet.

I have never heard complaints about critical tables.  The base game should use the -49 to 120 tables with the more detailed tables available in arms law/companions.   

Spell list are fine, though I have heard complaints about blanks on list.  No one wants to spend dp for nothing.

If tables MUST be kept, then a page from the old MERP line should be used: remember how all combat tables were available on TWO pages?  The absolute most would be a Ten Million Ways to Die approach, and my intuition says that is still to much.
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Offline smug

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2011, 10:13:38 AM »
I don't think that it's so obvious that the charts should go and that, as a result, there'll be a significant market for the game. I mean, sure, if we can really demonstrate that then fair enough but I don't take it as an article of faith. We could, as mentioned elsewhere, have charts (or their absence) as an option without breaking anything.

From my own experience, I found that it wasn't the charts that put people off but rather resolution by (up to) three-digit arithmetic (not a disincentive for me as I love mental arithmetic, but it certainly bothered some of the people with whom I've played).

Offline GrumpyOldFart

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2011, 10:33:49 AM »
From my own experience, I found that it wasn't the charts that put people off but rather resolution by (up to) three-digit arithmetic (not a disincentive for me as I love mental arithmetic, but it certainly bothered some of the people with whom I've played).

I can't say I would be surprised by that, as I've found that to be a medium common complaint myself. A fair percentage of gamers feel like they can't play it at all without a calculator, and seem to be bothered by it.

That said, if things get trimmed down from a d100 paradigm to a d20 paradigm, I personally will probably be uninterested in playing it. One of the major selling points for me has always been the granularity provided by d100s as opposed to d20s. If I'm not going to get that, I don't see any particular reason not to just go ahead and resign myself to The System That Shall Not Be Named(tm), or to just stay with my older books.

Then again, as little money as I ever have to spare for gaming materials, basing marketing decisions on what I think would probably be foolish indeed.

 :o
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Offline pastaav

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2011, 02:05:53 PM »
The question if tables should be kept in core book or not is still an open question. The interesting question is what to put there instead.

I could very well imagine moving the movement table into a companion that cover sports, physical challenges, overcoming traps and similar. The actual table might only be a single page, but there is also need for pages to explain the use of the table. Expanded core rules about tactics in combat might perhaps be worthwhile.
/Pa Staav

Offline pastaav

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2011, 02:30:24 PM »
My issue was that until RMC, my game was dead, no searchable pdfs, no hard copy, no nothing. My game is RM2. The upshot was that I ended up in the same situation as the RMSS/FRP fans, having a game in searchable, digital form with (at the time) the possibility of ordering hard copy. If that "alienates" the RMSS crowd, then I'm sorry for that, but I just wanted to have a game that I could point players at again.

Good for you...as for why it would alienate people like me. Starvation of resources is pretty much the problem. All the time and resources spent on the RMC core books is pretty much lost time to me that meant no new material was produced that I could use (this is true both for RMFRP and HARP fans). If the RMC had resulted in a surge of new business that could have funded new material target at both systems then things would have been different, but IMHO that would required more than just a polish of the old RM2 rules.

No reason to continue arguing...it pretty much boils down to hard feelings about RM2 being dropped in 1995 and hard feelings about RMFRP being dropped in recent years despite promises of this not being the case.
/Pa Staav

Offline Witchking20k

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2011, 03:50:20 PM »
Is Rolemaster the right name?  I know plenty of 30+ folks that won't touch it because they recognize the name......maybe its time to re-name it?
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2011, 10:21:26 PM »
Is Rolemaster the right name?  I know plenty of 30+ folks that won't touch it because they recognize the name......maybe its time to re-name it?

A definite possibility.

RM no longer has the second best selling RPG of all time as a basic intro system to lull players in, which is what merp was.  RM needs to become a stand alone system that sheds its ugly baggage in the redesign.  A new name may indeed help.

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: The Crown is Dead, Long Live the Crown Announcement
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2011, 11:34:24 PM »
A redesign... a new name... a new controlling group...?  It would really kinda defeat the entire purpose of holding the license.
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