Topic: HARP Spellcasters Overpowered?

[Thom @ ICE]

In the Rolemaster section there is an ongoing discussion of RM's Healing being underpowered and the following comment was made -

NB - in HARP, healing is made easier ... to the point that it is in my opinion too easy.

And in HARP, a first level spellcaster can also cast fireballs and fly--low level spellcasters are ridiculously overpowered in HARP. Rolemaster feels more right to me in that regard.

This is just my own personal opinion on these...

Fly is only 5 rounds (10 seconds) per rank - 4 ranks to cast, at most 6 ranks at level 1. At most 1 minute of flight. Could possibly be scaled back to 1 round per rank in order to reduce the abuse at low levels.  At 15' per round this would allow a minimum of 60' flying in 8 seconds. A nice little boost across the chasm.

Fireball is actually Elemental Ball – requires 6PP to cast so you can’t scale it at 1st level. Spell requires an attack roll and yields at most a Tiny Heat Critical (+20 if the attack is centered on them) to a 10’ radius. The power here really comes from the interpretation that the spell allows the ball to expand and wrap around cover.  My own personal house rules allow the defender to apply full DB in response (including shield though not parry) but it also counts for flank/rear bonuses on the elemental attack if the targeted point is behind or beside the individual (but within 10’) – this then also allows sudden dodge as an option for the targeted individuals.   The fireball becomes more like a flame bomb with a blast radius and therefore it is far less powerful in the hands of a 1st level caster.

[Ecthelion]

NB - in HARP, healing is made easier ... to the point that it is in my opinion too easy.

And in HARP, a first level spellcaster can also cast fireballs and fly--low level spellcasters are ridiculously overpowered in HARP. Rolemaster feels more right to me in that regard.

"Healing is made easier": Yes, this is true. In HARP healing is so easy that, if the group survives combat at all, in most cases all characters can be fully restored within less than one minute. This is not necessarily better than the RM healing system, it is just different.

"first level spellcaster can also cast fireballs": Yes and no. Yes, because a first level character can cast a spell named Fireball in HARP. No, because the effect of this unscaled elemental ball is comparable to that of a RM Shock Bolt at most, except that it effects a 10' radius.

"first level spellcaster can also cast [...] fly": Yes, but it's relatively easy for a RM spellcaster to also learn and cast the spell (ESF or SCSM required).

In general, except for healing and elemental attack spells, IMO HARP casters are quite weak since their spell usually last only several seconds up to a few minutes, where as in RM there are many spells that last for minutes/lvl up to hours/lvl.

[munchy]

I would agree. They mostly seem to be more powerful but if you are strict with the duration, quite a number of the spells are much weaker and even annoyingly short.
The healing issue has been discussed in the HARP forums also as many felt (me among them) that it is too easy, too quick, too general and maybe even too "Dungeons and Dragons".

[hal_s]

A first level spellcaster in Rolemaster can boil a cup of water.

A first level spellcaster in HARP can cast a Fireball.

Yeah, maybe it's a relatively weak Fireball compared to a Rolemaster Fireball, but it's still pretty darn good for first level. He can also cast that Fireball a dozen times before he runs out of PP.

In that other RPG invented by Gary Gygax, a first level magic user can only cast one magic missile and then he's out of spells. And he has to commit to memorizing only that one spell at the beginning of the day, while the HARP spellcaster can have access to several more powerful spells at will. (And for the record, I hate the Vancian system.)

[masque1223]

A first level spellcaster in Rolemaster can boil a cup of water.

A first level spellcaster in HARP can cast a Fireball.

Yeah, maybe it's a relatively weak Fireball compared to a Rolemaster Fireball, but it's still pretty darn good for first level. He can also cast that Fireball a dozen times before he runs out of PP.

In that other RPG invented by Gary Gygax, a first level magic user can only cast one magic missile and then he's out of spells. And he has to commit to memorizing only that one spell at the beginning of the day, while the HARP spellcaster can have access to several more powerful spells at will. (And for the record, I hate the Vancian system.)

All selling points for HARP, as far as I'm concerned.  It's got High Adventure right in the name, the increased competency at lower levels fits that in my opinion.

[Umpteenth]

A first level spellcaster in Rolemaster can boil a cup of water.

A first level spellcaster in HARP can cast a Fireball.

Yeah, maybe it's a relatively weak Fireball compared to a Rolemaster Fireball, but it's still pretty darn good for first level. He can also cast that Fireball a dozen times before he runs out of PP.

In that other RPG invented by Gary Gygax, a first level magic user can only cast one magic missile and then he's out of spells. And he has to commit to memorizing only that one spell at the beginning of the day, while the HARP spellcaster can have access to several more powerful spells at will. (And for the record, I hate the Vancian system.)

All selling points for HARP, as far as I'm concerned.  It's got High Adventure right in the name, the increased competency at lower levels fits that in my opinion.

I agree with this. Mages that really can defend theirselves with some spells and good amount of PP are desirable. And yes cure is cheap or damage is too soft, i recall on MERP you could heal HP easly but the other complications would take more and more lvls to heal. Same isnt true in HARP. Theres Major Healing since the first level.

Theres some other unballanced spell like nature strength with the spell user does get a huge OB bonus/double damage for huge ammount of time.

But HARP and its scalling spell system is one of the best ive tested so far, great to play low to high lvl mages.

[Usdrothek]

I personally dislike how minor healing can be simply cast multiple times to repair the same injury. 4 casting and you heal all hits or penalties.

It's much too much like cure light wounds.

[Thom @ ICE]

That topic has come up before - the documented interpretation is that you can cast Minor Healing over and over again to wipe out the penaltiers,  bleed, stun and hit damage until the person is healed.  It only fails to help on broken bones, tendons, etc. - which are actually not documented in game terms, leaving the GM with a mes.

For my games I use that Minor Healing can be used once per wound.  I have records of which strikes did which damage, so the Minor Healing is applied to the damage from a specific strike.  If you got hit with three different blows that each yielded Bleed damage you need to either receive 3 separate Minor Healing spells or have people successful execute a Healing skill maneuver (which again only applies once per wound).

[GMLovlie]

I have records of which strikes did which damage, so the Minor Healing is applied to the damage from a specific strike.  If you got hit with three different blows that each yielded Bleed damage you need to either receive 3 separate Minor Healing spells or have people successful execute a Healing skill maneuver (which again only applies once per wound).

Have you got schematics for this, I mean a page, piece of paper, with pre-made boxes and such, a wound-sheet so to speak?

I’d love to get my hand on it if that’s the case

[Dr_Sage]

I have the impression that:

1 -  yes, Major Healing is kinda powerfull, and scales perfectly. I believe it was the designer idea tho: the mage/rogue/fighter can down the enemy in one blow, the healer can get you up in 1 spell. Pros and contras in the same characteristics. 
I am personally against the "bone/tendon" thing, since the game is too much abstract for that -  the more we try to be "accucate", far from reality we go (or anyone thing that a person with serious bone/tendon damage would heal up to become perfect.
I once broke my finger -  really minor fracture - and my hand was disabled for almost 2 weeks. Took 3 months to fully heal.
So, pls don't shoot me, but nowadays I am in favor of DnD 4ed "abstract damage", meaning that the wound is only really serious when you are about to loose your character...

(continue)

[Dr_Sage]

(continuing)

2 - Regarding offensive spells: I am inclined to think that - with double castelemental spells, and such things -  casters have a lead. Nothing abusive tho.

3 - Regarding utility spells: the possibility of levitate or fly REALLY can ruin things at lower levels. 1 minute flying is aways WAY more tham anyone can jump/climb, so ... 

[Usdrothek]

For my games I use that Minor Healing can be used once per wound.  I have records of which strikes did which damage, so the Minor Healing is applied to the damage from a specific strike.  If you got hit with three different blows that each yielded Bleed damage you need to either receive 3 separate Minor Healing spells or have people successful execute a Healing skill maneuver (which again only applies once per wound).

Thats the way we have chosen to go in the HARP game I'm involved with. It made sense to all.

[Umpteenth]

For my games I use that Minor Healing can be used once per wound.  I have records of which strikes did which damage, so the Minor Healing is applied to the damage from a specific strike.  If you got hit with three different blows that each yielded Bleed damage you need to either receive 3 separate Minor Healing spells or have people successful execute a Healing skill maneuver (which again only applies once per wound).

Thats the way we have chosen to go in the HARP game I'm involved with. It made sense to all.

In our game we kinda do use a similar "wounding" system. Each of the wounds most be healed separated but we just record as wounds the critical specifications (i.e. bleeding, activity penalties...) leaving the endurance (HP) as just a huge mass.

So if a character takes a 10 hits 2 bleeding, than a 5 -5 to actv and yet again another 5 -5 to actv. You may all endurance (20) with one single spell but will 3 spells to heal the conditions (one each damage sourcing wound)

[calmacil]

For my games I use that Minor Healing can be used once per wound.  I have records of which strikes did which damage, so the Minor Healing is applied to the damage from a specific strike.  If you got hit with three different blows that each yielded Bleed damage you need to either receive 3 separate Minor Healing spells or have people successful execute a Healing skill maneuver (which again only applies once per wound)

I agree with you, i think this is how you're supposed to heal with the minor healing spell.
I can understand how this works with bleeding and broken bones.


It's concussion hits (hit points) i'm unsure about.
Do you mark each hit with a location? (for example.... 28 hits/ left leg)

If this is the case, does the minor healing spell heal 25% of one injury (regarding hit points) or 25% of total hits points taken.

[calmacil]

I don't like healing 25% of hits.
How does this balance for house rules for the minor healing spell?

Basic spell is still 3PP. Three options:
- Stop 1 hit per rnd of bleeding
- Reduce man. penalty by 5
- Heal 2-20 concussion hits.

The scaling options will be: (top 2 are same as book)
- Increase range (10') = +2PP
- Stop death in x rnds = +7PP
- Reduce bleeding by extra hits/rnd = +1PP per extra hit (max of 5)
- Reduce man. penalty = +1PP per -5 (max of -20)
- Heal 3-30 concussion hits = +2PP

Bleeding/Maneuver Penalties
Minor Healing only affects one area on the victims body. If you have bleeding from wounds on your head, left arm and chest (all bleeding 1 hit/rnd) then it will take 3 castings of minor healing to stop all the bleeding. If it was 3 seperate bleeding criticals to the left arm, minor healing would heal all of the wounds.


Also I'm tempted to make the spell fly as "self" only.

[munchy]

We had a similar discussion in our forums about the healing spells. Fixed amounts of hits seem to be better than percentages. We did not even like to go with 2-20 which implies rolling how much you really heal in any given situation, healing 20 hits seems much better to us. It gives the max result and reduces the dice rolling.

[Uriel]

A first level spellcaster in Rolemaster can boil a cup of water.

A first level spellcaster in HARP can cast a Fireball.

Yeah, maybe it's a relatively weak Fireball compared to a Rolemaster Fireball, but it's still pretty darn good for first level. He can also cast that Fireball a dozen times before he runs out of PP.

In that other RPG invented by Gary Gygax, a first level magic user can only cast one magic missile and then he's out of spells. And he has to commit to memorizing only that one spell at the beginning of the day, while the HARP spellcaster can have access to several more powerful spells at will. (And for the record, I hate the Vancian system.)

A bit OT, but have you not played D&D since 2nd Ed?
A 1st Lvl D20/whatever Wizard has a few castings.
I don't play 4th Ed, but I do play Pathfinder, which has many improvements over earlier editions,for the various Casters.

A 1st Level Wizard/Sorc will have 2( 3 if specialized)/4 1st Lvl spells respectively, as well as Unlimited castings of their Cantrips (Several of which are D3 damage elemental spells, but...they are unlimited. He also hits a lot easier than trying to shoot his holdout crossbow/throw a dart.) Furthermore, said Evoker or whatever, will have a School Power, while a Sorc will have a Bloodline Power, granting yet more abilities. In essence an Evoker gets an extra 5-8 or so magic Missiles per day at Lvl 1.
Likewise, he can invest 12 and a half Gold/Scroll and have another 2-5 or so from his starting allotments. Point is, he is 'on par' with a Harp Mage in somewhere between 7-11 or 12 castings of his 1st Lvl abilities (Variance depending on his prime Stat), plus Scrolls.Wizards are no longer Gimped to the '1 shot' guy. In case you just haven't looked at D&D/PF, as a hardcore ICE guy (I was from 87-2000). This is meant more of a 'Hey, they gave the Wizard a nice break' than a 'Dude,you don't know of what you speak!' sort of statement from me.
Relevant in a RM/vs Harp conversation, not exactly.
Relevant in one discussing Power Lvls of caster's in general, Yes.

I have DMed/played D&D/ since I was 11, with a break between 1987 and 3rd Ed,but from 3.0 on, I have GMed it (I am 41), and RM since I was 16 or so. Now, I haven't played RM in over a decade, since my move to San Fran met with a vastly different gamer base ('95, VTM and Gurps were all that folks seemed to play here,so I instead jumped into my Miniatures obsession, go Chronopia,Warzone,Bladestorm!), but I have been playing HARP for a few years now.

Back to the Topic, While a HARP caster might seem super powered to someone who hasn't experienced the points already gone over by folks (Limitation on the FB damage,etc...), and Yes,Healing is much easier, he does have limitations. He must develop his Spells individually (Which I love, feelwise, btw Tim/etc), as well as PP Dev.
He ends up with WAY fewer spells than a RM Mage at higher levels, since he is Deving them each seperately. This, I also think is a very cool system, and makes each Mage less 'cookie-cutter' than either RM or D20/Whatever.
You just don't know what a 5th Lvl HARP Mage has for you... will he hit you with a Fireball, or an Acid Bolt, Quicksand...or will he surprise the Heck out of you by having a Hammerstrike on his staff, and showing you that 'This frail old man kicks much Butt...'.
In RM, you know what he has access to, basically. In D&D, you are eating a FB, maybe a Lightning Bolt, as his usual big gun choice. With the HARP choice to go based on Ranks, and not Lvl, you gain a versatility that might keep the PCs guessing a bit more (Which rocks, from a GM standpoint), whereas they will have a much higher degree of knowledge/expectation for what they are facing in RM.
Are the starting spells flashier/more powerful than RM starting spells? Yes.
But, they are things that you have to keep up, making them seem almost like a living thing.
One player, when he Levels, jokes that his spells are 'hungry', and mock-talks to them as he advances them.
'Who's my favorite spell, Yes, Quicksand, you are my favorite..Here's a Rank for you.

-Uriel

PS:Having one caster pull a buffed Quicksand, while another casts Illusions over it to disguise it is...frustrating to poor monsters, but still funny to this old GM. HARP casters rock.

[munchy]

Cool post, Uriel, really cool post!

[Thom @ ICE]

Have you got schematics for this, I mean a page, piece of paper, with pre-made boxes and such, a wound-sheet so to speak?

I’d love to get my hand on it if that’s the case

Here's a clean version of the spreadsheet I have used. I've saved it back into an earlier excel version. I'm not sure if the pivot table aspect will work correctly.
It's not perfect, and you may want to tinker with it - but it worked for me as a base.

Thom

[hal_s]

A bit OT, but have you not played D&D since 2nd Ed?

No, I haven't played since the original Gary Gygax editions.

But I do know that 4e contains HEALING SURGES.