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Systems & Settings => Shadow World => Topic started by: vroomfogle on September 18, 2008, 09:25:31 AM

Title: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: vroomfogle on September 18, 2008, 09:25:31 AM
Hello all,

As some of you may have read, Nicholas from The Guild Companion announced that there was a Shadow World Player Guide in the works.   I will be the 'author' of that work, although I use the term author in a loose sense since most, if not all, of the work is compiling information from existing sources.    Many of you aware of the Player Guides I have on my website (vroomfogle.com, top right hand corner), which will be a starting point but I will be completely revisiting everything.  Also rest assured that Terry will be closely involved with this project.

The Player Guide will be based on only canon material (although it's likely that many sources won't have any impact on a Player Guide).   Master canon list:
- Written by Terry: Atlases, Atlas Addendum, Powers of Light & Dark, Jaiman, Haalkitaine, Cloudlords of Tanara, Xa-ar, The Iron Wind, Emer, Emer I, Emer II, Eidolon, Vog Mur, the Shadowstone chronicles, The Grand Campaign, Curse of the White Wood, Dagger of Jade, Watchtowers of U-Lyshak, Temple of the Three (from TGA1), and Rose Petals and Snow Lions (from TGA2).
- Accepted by Terry: Norek, Quellbourne

Now it is not normal to discuss projects under development, however in this case I felt the product was a bit of a different beast.   The Player Guides are for players, but ultimately a tool for SW GM's.   I want the player guide to be endorsed by GMs and be useful in their own campaigns.   Therefore I need to be careful about what is considered "Player" information.  There are a few current threads here discussing this very idea and I am reading and paying attention to those carefully.   Now this is a PLAYER guide, not a Local Populace guide.   A local populace guide of SW would no doubt be very short.

The guides are to include a modicum amount of information that is intended to impart an overview of information to the players.  It will no doubt include information that some PC's would not have (for instance, info on Emer when they are from Jaiman, or information on some history when none is known), and as such the Guide will still require players to be able to separate Player Knowledge from Character Knowledge.  But at the same time the Guide should not give away any secrets, or even any hints.   It should give a healthy dose of Shadow World flavor and might also serve as a player reference manual.

Therefore, I would like to solicit (caveats below) opinions on the type of information you, as GM's and to a lesser extent players, would like to see in a Player Guide.  I would like to include as many diagrams and maps as possible to help convey information concisely.   Here are things to think about:
- What types of information do you think are crucial for your players to have?
- What are the types of things you would not like your players to have? 
- Regarding maps, what level of detail should players have?
- What about important groups of note.  Which ones are known about?  Navigators? Loremasters?  Dragonlords?  Are they myths?   Do players know of their existence?
- Are any details of the First or Second Era known?
- What past civilizations should be contained in the Guide?
- How should Gods be presented without clearly separating them into "Good" and "Evil" (Orhan vs Charon).

That being said, here are the caveats:
- I cannot and will not promise anything as to the contents of the Guide.  Any discussion on these boards should not be taken as an indication that something will be included, or not be included.   Even if it sounds like I endorse something is no guarantee of what will be in the final publication.
- There is no ETA.  Please do not ask for when this might be done.  I currently do not know.   I would like to get this done in a timely manner, but I'm busy and doing this right will take time.


I appreciate any input and feedback you may all provide.  I want this to ultimately be a useful tool for as many of you Shadow World fans out there as I can.

- V

Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: TomOBedlam on September 18, 2008, 09:46:07 AM
Regarding Gods - What about presenting information about them in the following format:
- What to believers believe? No one believes that his god is Evil, so what do they believe?
- What to believers think about other gods?

It's a bit like the format used by White Wolf in about all of their products. Vampire clans described how they interact.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Hurin on September 18, 2008, 11:15:13 AM
As for getting out of the conundrum of presenting gods as good or evil: why not just give an account of each god from his/her perspective? I am assuming even evil gods would not consider themselves evil (Satan, if he existed, would probably consider himself just misunderstood and badly mistreated), or at least they would not say such to their followers. So write up the descriptions as if it were from that god's perspective. Klysus might say that He is a great protector of the people of Lankanok, for example, and as long as people keep their faith with Him, and keep making the sacrifices that He demands of them, they will be His chosen people and eternally triumphant over their enemies.

You could do the same with the followers of the Unlife. They have a whole rhetoric of anti-loremaster stock phrases and slogans, obviously; they could say that all the priests Arnak want to bring eternal life (i.e. as undead) to all the people of Kulthea, but that the evil loremasters want to hold everyone back from enjoying eternal bliss so that the Loremasters can continue to treat the people as their own fearful puppets.

As for characters' awareness of history and politics, I would like to see most player characters having an understanding of the Loremasters, the Navigators and maybe a few of the Dragonlords (say, Oran and Sulthon, if they were on Jaiman). Most educated people on Kulthea should have a basic understanding of the timeline of the world (though there may be different dating systems--in Zor, for example, you could argue that the destruction of the Kingdom is the most significant historical event, as it ushered in a new age), and a more detailed understanding of the timeline as it applies to their particular era. Scholars who had been to Nomikos or attended the Gryphon College would have a much more detailed understanding.

This sounds like a great project! I'm really interested to see how it turns out, as I am about to start one or possibly even two new campaigns in Kulthea.

Good Luck!
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Guillaume on September 18, 2008, 01:38:43 PM
My own answer to these questions has been hiding somewhere in the vault for a while.   ;D

You can hereby, use and abuse of the informations it contains.
( and develop them, it's not as if a 2/3 pages 'player handout' could come near to competing to a real Player Guide. )
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: markc on September 18, 2008, 03:23:45 PM
 I just wanted to chime in and wish you good luck on the project.

MDC
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: mathhatt on September 19, 2008, 05:05:25 AM
This is an interesting project, and I think it would be a most useful document if it gets done.

I've written my own world guide for my players a few years back. You could have a look although it is written in french, to see what kind of information I've included.  http://mathhatt.free.fr/jdr/rm/sw/docs/shadowworld.pdf
http://mathhatt.free.fr/jdr/rm/sw/docs/shadow%20world%20world%20guide.pdf

Basically I've included more information than what the characters would know, just for the players to have an overview and a feel of the setting. Although I've also written some little documents to illustrate what exactly their characters would know and think of specific subjects, depending on their specific cultures and education. Usually my players create well educated and knowledgeable characters, living in civilized places, usually spell users (or semi-spell users) with at least some basic knowledge about secret organizations and stuff like that, even if they don't have all the details.

Basically my world guide contains the following :

- informations about the solar system, planets and moons. Maybe a little more info that what normal characters would know about, but it is given for the players to get a more precise feeling of the setting, with visual illustrations of the moons and relative sizes. Now that I think of it, the work of kmanktelow (see this thread : http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=7028.60) should be used here.

- maps and short descriptions for the whold western hemisphere (let the east one be clouded in mystery and legends) as well as more precise maps for the two main continents Emer and Jaiman.

- a listing and short descriptions of peoples/races/cultures and technological levels, to give the players a sense of the variety of places/cultures/countries, with some very low tech, some almost renaissance...

- a part about the magic, what is the source of the magic (Essaence), the various forms of channeling/essence/mentalism and pure Essaence (arcane). As my players almost create magic users they know about the various colors of magic, stuff like that.

- notes about powers like loremasters, navigators, and less known evil cults and dragonlords (not too much details, just so they know they exist, but let their motivations, exact numbers etc. in the mist).

- a short history of 1st, 2nd and third era. Here again, more than most of the characters would actually know, but for the players to get a sense of the very ancient history of Kulthea. No very secret events should be disclosed here, but indications that there was a very powerful Essaence-using race (Kta'viiri) with high technological level, long ago, that is now completely extinct (or is it really ?) but whose remnants can still be found in some places.

- finally a note on religions and gods, with the pantheon of both moons, some legends and beliefs about what they want, what they do, where they are. More about the specific cults and religions, their motivations.

Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Witchking20k on September 19, 2008, 09:29:26 PM
I'm a fan of writing a players guide that inspires players to play, not just provide info.  A few well placed short stories and some good art would go a long way.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: RandalThor on September 19, 2008, 10:14:46 PM
Quote from: Witchking20k on September 19, 2008, 09:29:26 PM
I'm a fan of writing a players guide that inspires players to play, not just provide info.  A few well placed short stories and some good art would go a long way.

I could not agree more.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: dutch206 on September 26, 2008, 09:48:00 PM
My "Player's Version of the Emer Timeline" is kicking around the vault somewhere.  Feel free to use and abuse it.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Terry K. Amthor on September 27, 2008, 06:24:02 AM
Quote from: Witchking20k on September 19, 2008, 09:29:26 PM
I'm a fan of writing a players guide that inspires players to play, not just provide info.  A few well placed short stories and some good art would go a long way.

THose would be fun to write...
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on September 29, 2008, 12:02:43 PM
Following the vain of White Wolf and what I have been reading above... If the book was written as a person living in the Shadow World, you could convey a great deal of information. For example, everyone take on a Loremaster/scribe/nosey SOB that has written information down and then a 3rd body takes the information and compiles it.

That way we have different "agents" that can relay information. Agents could get a page or more to express their information. After that there could be the technical information; village/city/kingdom stats and the like.

I always liked that approach for a Players manual or guild. I couldn't stand it as a Rule book. It immerses the players in right away, everyone involved gets to be creative as well as informative, sharing quick adventures, details of locations, maps of their adventures, maps of cities, cool places to visit, locations that are considered dangerous, explain that a simple education graph of what people may know... that could be hard, and finally a dress style for regions, favoured weapons and more. This could be overkill or even not enough for some.

... stupid work! Gets in the way of the important things... grumble grumble grumble


 
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: dutch206 on September 29, 2008, 11:18:32 PM
"real life" happens.  ;D
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on September 30, 2008, 12:04:40 PM
It always seems to work that way - nothing and then everything!!! NOW NOW NOW!!!

I have never written a players manual, I've done a game, horrible horrible, and all sorts of White Papers, user manuals for technology but I am not sure how to work on this one.

My Lame Ideas but not totally in order.

Intro - By Terry - hint hint hint =-)
World Overview (Short history)
Organizations (Loremasters and the other bad guys)
Kingdoms (Brief - more a who's who)
General Social standings - (Education is king here)
Explanation of Magic - I doubt the characters know that the Earth Wardens Separated the teaching of magic.
Equipment list - What to take-because most have no clue and thing they are going to the local store.
Explanation of Money. Different locations have different Money.
Social Graces - More a wish list, but PC's have to know their place.
Legends - maybe some self motivating adventure ideas. I haven't had a party in a long time that took it upon themselves to look for something.
Maps! - Cool places and wonder, explore and take control of!

There is already a tonne of ideas out there. How do we start??

I have a graphics guy that says he will help with the layout if you guys want to sexy it up.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: vroomfogle on September 30, 2008, 07:49:17 PM
Quote from: Elrik on September 30, 2008, 12:04:40 PM
There is already a tonne of ideas out there. How do we start??

I have a graphics guy that says he will help with the layout if you guys want to sexy it up.

Elrik,  this project is to be a product that I'm doing for the Guild Companion.   Of course, community work on Shadow World is always welcome and anyone is free to do it, but I cannot guarantee that anything done will be included in this Player Guide.


Onto another issue - The Unlife
Like others, I prefer a more hazy line between good and evil, but then there is the Unlife.  Is the force of the Unlife that you GM's out there specifically lay out for the players?   Is the Unlife something that should be explicitly defined.   

In other words I'm interested what you all think about the info presented in Part XIV of the 3rd edition Atlas. (Part IX 4th edition).  Is this material something that you think would be presented to the players.  Specifically the section "Good and Evil" that defines what Unlife is.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on September 30, 2008, 10:24:42 PM
Sorry... my enthusiasm got the best of me.  =-)

My long winded answer.

Unlife: If you look long enough into the void the void begins to look back through you - Nietzsche
It is rare that my players are aware of the Unlife at the start of their career. I have had games go on for some time and the players still had no idea what the Unlife was beyond hear say and legend. In most cases I distort the legends a bit so that they carry some truth, but less historical fact.

City folk have an idea of legends, a touch of history, but they are only aware of stories that have been strentch and pulled and rebranded to make more sense to those young minds starting to learn. Most people don't want to believe that these things anyways.

The common city folk learn to be a practical lot, protected from the Darkness by walls, and constantly having their betters tell them that peasant tales are just superstitious tales. Eventually it sinks in, time retells the truth and stories become the facts of history. 

As you wonder away from cities, superstitious starts to trump practical thinking. Legends become fact and history may carry more truth then fancy. Still, every story has it's own legs. Communitys on the edge of the Unlife may see it everyday, listen to it whisper and think it something else completely. Tales of the Fey, changeling, dark spirits even dark races permeate the threads that make up these peoples lives. Once these stories where a warning, now these warnings have become tall tales.

Few start off knowing what the Iron Wind is. More know it by other names; Myth, legend, tall tales, Boogieman. As people grow, and travel, they learn a thing, some of those people put several thing together and they start to piece together a puzzle. Every so often they gain some clear incite, usually they discover more questions. As they travel, they find more to add to their puzzle, and find more questions. Yet, in the darkness there is a shiver and something begins to investigate the characters.

Elrik Notes: The Unlife should not be fully defined. Players shouldn't even have a clue until something comes along to "give" them a clue.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: kmanktelow on October 10, 2008, 05:35:04 PM
Hi, Vroomfogle, et al,

I agree with Elrik, regarding the amount and accuracy of information people would have, from different backgrounds. In many cases, they would have conflicting information- along the lines of "Eh? Well, my Dad always told me that <insert erroneous fact here>!"

There's something really satisfying sometimes about having the players barking completely up the wrong tree, then seeing their faces when they realise that some information that they had was completely wrong. It tends to make them a bit more cautious, afterwards. ;D

I remember one time, that after they'd been arrested in some small barony, that the local ruler sent them to deal with an Evil Sorcerer and recover a magic sword, so that the charges against them would be dropped.

Off they trotted, filled with the desire to rid the land of Evil...

It turned out, that the 'Evil Sorcerer' was actually a powerful Alchemist, whom the Baron had commissioned to make the sword- but then the Baron had refused to pay for it. Ergo: the Alchemist refused to give it to him- and the Baron was reduced to trying to coerce gormless Adventurers into stealing it for him.

Yeah, I could be a really sneaky, devious swine sometimes, when I GMed.

Difficult, to provide dis-information in a player guide, but it would be nice to see a 'rumours' section, to do the same thing.

All the Best,

Kevin.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: vroomfogle on October 12, 2008, 09:49:40 AM
Copying thrud's post to here as more suggestion for the Player Guide

Quote from: thrud on October 11, 2008, 04:05:13 AM
Maybe this has been covered before but here it goes...
I thought it would be nice with a thread where you could make a whishlist for future SW material.
I'll go first:
- A detailed section on races and where they can be found.
   "I want to play an elf, where do they live?"
   "I want to play an elf, what kind of clothes do I wear?"
   "I want to play an elf, what weapons can I choose from? Which tribes use what weapons?"
- An in depth section on languages.
   "I want to play an elf, what languages do I speak?"
   "I want to play an elf, how many ranks do I get in my languages?"
- A detailed listing on live, dead and magical languages and where they are/were spoken and by who
   "I am the mighty wizard of the western mountain range and I want to study some cool ancient languages, what languages are there?

There are bits and pieces all over the place but it should be presented in one place where it's easy to understand.
My suggestion alone could provide enough material for a source book if you let it.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Witchking20k on October 16, 2008, 09:30:56 PM
The players guide(s) writen for Earthdawn were awsome.  They had the races broken down in a series of books and a book called the Adepts way.  You could read a few pages about Elves then flip to the Swordmaster and kinda meld the two.....
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Witchking20k on October 16, 2008, 09:33:17 PM
How about some SW specific TPs.....ie.

Sarnak Mercenary, Warlock from Itanis, Laan Explorer......
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Nejira on October 29, 2008, 04:32:51 PM
Quote
why not just give an account of each god from his/her perspective

I like Hurin?s suggestion, and like to second it. Maybe also include some information about the priesthoods, holidays, dogma, and so forth about each "religion" as well.

Details on what is commonly known, and what people?s approach to the subject is. Loremasters, Navigators, Unlife, etc, etc, etc. lots of "secrets" in SW but just how secret are they to the common man?

Other than that, thrud pretty much sums up my feelings. I like a player?s guide thats more a "how to play a character in this setting" than "how to get most out of your elf" guide. A guide that has some game info but is mostly focused on the roleplaying aspect.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Hurin on November 02, 2008, 10:31:38 AM
[Just going to repost my post on this from another thread that talked about this:]

One of the great strengths of Rolemaster and Shadow World is the tremendous detail they provide, but I don't think this potential has been fully realized because the Shadow World background material hasn't been fully integrated with the Rolemaster character creation material.

I would love to see:

--A table that gives adolescent skill ranks for all the major PC races on Kulthea. MERP did this quite well, giving dwarves a very different background than elves, for example. ICE got close to this with its books on Races and Cultures, but most of the Human races (which seem to be the majority of the population of Kulthea) were not detailed to the same extent as the other races, and the ranks didn't really give very distinctive skills to the different races. Here we have a real opportunity to finish the job by taking the material in the Races and Cultures book and fleshing it out to make it unique to Kulthea and to give even the human races a fully developed background. Thus, for example, you might give Duranaki two skill ranks in Kynacs and three or four in Caving. You could note specifically what weapons the nomads of Uj use, and give the PCs that come from there ranks in those weapons. This would help to flesh out the human races and give them a more distinct background by fully integrating the world and the system. This, I think, would really be breaking new ground; it would provide perhaps the most detailed background setting in RPG history.

This might also be a real opporunity to help balance somewhat the races in the Master Atlas. Seriously, who would play a Shay warrior when one can play a Talath? If the Shay have more ranks in some useful skills at adolescence, however, due to their less insular societies, or even access to some of the very potent 'fantasy' weapons in Arms Law, this might help to balance things out. That might be asking a bit too much though... I'd be perfectly happy with just a basic chart of adolescent skill ranks.

Giving a full list of adolescent ranks for all the playable races of Kulthea would also make it a lot easier for GMs to provide the PCs with really deep backgrounds. A Duranaki thief is going to feel considerably different than a Jameri thief, for example, if they start off with a very different skill set. I think this would really add a great deal of flavour to the campaign.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Vince on November 04, 2008, 09:39:18 AM
I agree. There are more examples:

Dwarves: more Co, darkvision like MERP, more RR's, Axe, caving, smithying...
Shuluri: Swim, Hostile Enviromente underwater, fauna lore(sea)...
Rhiani: Riding skills, chegain, lie perception...

But i believe each GM has to improve this on his players, even two players with the same race can have different bonifications; or just force them to expend their development points in this areas without giving it free.

Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Wōdwulf Seaxaning on November 05, 2008, 06:11:49 PM
On this topic I'd like to see something done similar to what's done in Cyberspace with Social status adolescent Skill chart but using cultures & races instead.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Wōdwulf Seaxaning on March 07, 2009, 11:53:47 AM
Any updates on the progress of this project ?
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: vroomfogle on March 07, 2009, 11:06:37 PM
Nothing large enough to report.   I've been greatly delayed because I'm wrapping up my work on the RM ruleset for Fantasy Grounds.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Mhairtrym on March 26, 2009, 09:38:01 PM
Greetings,

Been visiting the site for a while but have not posted before.

But here are my two cents.

First off I Liked Thruud's suggestions, The languages would be helpful. 

1)What specific hobbies I would have based on regions, say a Duranaki or a Rhiani.  Along with a more specific addolence skill list for specific cultures or regions.  Basically covering where Races and cultures left off.
2) Perhaps suggested talents that might fit one culture over another and flaws perhaps.  If their GM allows them.  Maybe have a couple added on that are specific to Kulthea.
3) How about specific martial arts styles or weapon styles for said races or cultures, such as what are the Myri bodyguards of the Duranaki taught...  I have seen your webpage and some of your ideas there.
4)what God does a specific region follow, or Gods maybe one suggestion of a specific priest from Channeling companion.

I know this was mentioned but a starting equipment list that someone from that race/culture would begin with.
such as list A if a pure arms class, or List B for a pure spell users.

Also really liked the Kulthea specific TP's suggestion.


But really any additional information you do decide to do will be welcome.


Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Mhairtrym on April 01, 2009, 12:29:11 AM
Another suggestion not sure if others would like it, but perhaps some information on name structure of an area.  Maybe a list of common names or just a little detail on how a race/culture, or even do they use surenames, what are common names.  Just something to help players get to a name that fits Shadow world and specifically the race or culture they choose.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: windmarkbob on April 09, 2009, 09:51:28 AM
I'd love to see a section that shows what each region's economy is based on.  I'd also like to see geo-political borders with some info on who is allied with who and why, as well as who has tense relations with who and why.

Bob
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: vroomfogle on April 17, 2009, 12:33:22 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions everyone.    I've picked up this project again and will be forging ahead, but there's still lots to do.

I'm currently working on the map portion of the project, starting with Jaiman first.   You can follow my progress here:
http://forum.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=5222

I'll be posting works in progress in order to get feedback so I can come up with a really nice base map which will then be used in the player guide to add on various layers of info:  political boundaries, roads, trade routes, etc. 

Although you can't see the images unless you are registered.

Please keep coming with ideas for the guide or for any info you'd like to see overlayed on the Jaiman map!
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Hurin on April 20, 2009, 12:47:06 PM
I can't see the maps, as I am not registered... but it's great to hear the project is coming along!

I'd really like to see a table with adolescent skill ranks for the different races/cultures in Kulthea. A brief introduction or primer on what average people know about the history of Kulthea would be good too. And new maps are always welcome!
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Wōdwulf Seaxaning on April 21, 2009, 12:56:11 PM
Quote from: Mhairtrym on April 01, 2009, 12:29:11 AM
Another suggestion not sure if others would like it, but perhaps some information on name structure of an area.  Maybe a list of common names or just a little detail on how a race/culture, or even do they use surenames, what are common names.  Just something to help players get to a name that fits Shadow world and specifically the race or culture they choose.

I second this suggestion as I love these types of things.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Hurin on May 12, 2009, 11:47:22 AM
BTW Vroomfogle, do you have even a very rough ETA?

I have a group that might be starting a new Shadow World campaign in late July/early August, and having the guide by then would make the first session much, much easier for everyone.

Good luck, and thanks for all your work. I'm really looking forward to the guide.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: vroomfogle on May 15, 2009, 06:54:08 AM
Hurin - sorry I don't have an ETA right now, Nicholas will have to give an ETA when we get closer.   However, I will say that there are going to be 3 Guides: a shorter world one that will have general information pertaining to the whole world (e.g. magic, heavens, rough history), one for Jaiman and one for Emer.

Other then a couple images to add the World one is done but still needs to be edited and layed out.   I have started and made decent progress on Jaiman.   Emer has not yet been started.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Hurin on May 15, 2009, 12:01:42 PM
Great, thanks for the update!
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Wōdwulf Seaxaning on June 02, 2009, 04:27:58 PM
the guides going to be published seperately or as seperate books but bundled together ?
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: vroomfogle on June 02, 2009, 05:00:22 PM
They will be published separately, so you'll see the first ones much sooner then if we were waiting for them to be all done.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Wōdwulf Seaxaning on October 19, 2009, 12:52:03 PM
How's work coming on the first booklet ?
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: vroomfogle on October 19, 2009, 01:22:57 PM
I am handing over my final draft of the first book - The World Guide - to Nicholas in the next couple days and it will then be going to page layout.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on October 19, 2009, 02:32:45 PM
I shall look forward to purchasing it! :)
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on June 19, 2010, 11:02:57 PM
Last post was...October 19, 2009

Any updates on this at all? Or am I looking in the wrong place.

Yes I know, bad forum behaviour for waking a stale channel.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on June 20, 2010, 03:14:31 AM
The Player's Guide is in the final stages of production. The index is being built, final interior art and the cover being produced, proofreaders looking for residual typos, layout being finalised, and other final tweaks.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 20, 2010, 04:03:14 AM
In a rather bizarre turn of events, since my last post here looking forward to purchasing it, I'm actually doing the illustrations and page layout for the book (which I'm very pleased about).  :D

The page layout is complete barring a few last minute text changes and finishing  a couple of illustrations and I'm working on the cover image as we speak so I can say with confidence - soon. ;D

This baby will be available as a PDF and also a full colour printed version shortly after.   :o
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Guillaume on June 20, 2010, 06:48:14 AM
rofl

I know that there's been some work on the Player guide since october and I just can't wait to see the final product.  ;)

And the SW part of the forums is not stale... it's just that most of us have already asked ( and eventually got answers ) to our questions...

Some of them having been rehashed over time... from the RM Mailling List to the SW Mailling List to the first instance of the forums to the second instance of the forums...

Some of us have been around since... the epoch...
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Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 20, 2010, 07:24:11 AM
Quote from: Guillaume on June 20, 2010, 06:48:14 AM
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Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on June 20, 2010, 11:52:30 AM
@Nicholas
Thank you.

@craggles
I stumbled across your blog by dumb luck which lead me back to the Forum. You have some excellent design work.

@Guillaume
When I go to post and the Forum tells me that it has been over 14 days since someone has posted and that I should probably start a new conversation and I post anyways, that is waking a stale channel.

I have been around since the mailing list. I was active on these board for a while but eventually I just moved away from it. I come back every so often because I want to see what Terry is up to.

Is there an Epoch Membership I can apply for? There are a few of us up here that would be proud to sign up.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 20, 2010, 01:35:24 PM
Quote
I stumbled across your blog by dumb luck which lead me back to the Forum. You have some excellent design work.

Thank you. Odds are that you'll like the Player's Guide in that case. :P
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on June 20, 2010, 01:52:54 PM
... that could back fire on you... now that I know you are a professional, I expect more.  ;D
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on June 20, 2010, 01:57:24 PM
Quote from: Elrik on June 20, 2010, 01:52:54 PM
... that could back fire on you... now that I know you are a professional, I expect more.  ;D

I can confidently state that you will be astonished at how good the Player's Guide is when you see it.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 20, 2010, 03:03:07 PM
Thank you Nicholas. ;D
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on June 20, 2010, 03:25:24 PM
I look forward to being astonished.




Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: vroomfogle on June 20, 2010, 03:53:17 PM
I feel as though the Players Guide will add a lot to users of Shadow World by really engaging the players more with the setting.   I added what I thought was some innovative ideas (Knowledge Tiers to explicitly describe what Lore in certain categories means) as well as some diagrams to better illustrate and explain things.   However Craigs work or page layout, illustrations, and redoing many of my diagrams, really brings it to a whole new level.   

I'm also very happy with the decision to go ahead and print this in full color since a B/W print would really lose much of the impact.

One thing to keep in mind however is that this is a Players World Guide - what it does not contain is any regional specific information, it is global in nature and thus only includes information that pertains to the world at large such as Magic, general Geography & Ecology, Gods, rough global history, etc.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: egdcltd on June 20, 2010, 05:30:46 PM
What's the international shipping going to be like on the printed version? And will you be offering any deals for buying both the pdf and printed versions?
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on June 20, 2010, 05:54:49 PM
@Vroomfogle
Sounds interesting

I am curious to know how much you have broken things down and how they interact.

At the same time, if this helps young players acclimatize to the Shadow World then best of luck. Lets me honest, DnD has spoon fed players for so long I often wonder at how easy it is to sway them away from their Wizard produced nectar.

Excuse me while I rant...

Do you guys have a marketing plan for this or just boarding it? Seriously, I read things like "revitalizing Shadow World" but I don't see a general time line, or a price range. In this economic market you have to give people a few timed samples to wet their appetite. Then a time line to budget and a price range to see what they have to do without for a pay cycle to get them to buy. My one son would have to mow lawns and shovel drive ways to buy the book(s) and that is if he doesn't decide to drop that $20 on his PSP Go.

From the sounds of it you have put a fair bit of time and energy into this project, you seem to have other things on the go but there is no easy list to access, no general time line, no nothing.

You can't give people something to look forward to when there is nothing to look at. Consider a developers log, with updates that could say anything from sharing an idea, to 'into editing run 2' or even 'back into production writing...'. Not only do you give people the tail of it, but you start to engage them. Regular news letter, once a month, simple and to the point, advertise you other books at the same time. Or talk to the ICE crew and piggy back on their newsletter. Facebooks Page updates, there are free programs that let you update all social media devices at one time. Have you talked to Kobold Magazine, and asked if they would do a review? What about other RPG Mags?

You are competing with Wizard and Mongoose for market share, and they are very good at getting their message out there. YES there is a huge money difference... Wizards has the bank account that never seems to end, and Mongoose produces some excellent books, have you looked at their products? Mongoose is quality... expensive but you get what you paid for.

... just my 2 bits. I hope you guys sell like wildfire.

Elrik

Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: vroomfogle on June 21, 2010, 11:05:01 AM
Here is the final, barring any last minute changes, Table of Contents for the Players Guide:

1.   Introduction
Lore Skills
Knowledge Tiers

2.   Overview
Calendar
Seasons, Months, and Weeks
Days and Hours   
The Wonders of Shadow World

3.   The Heavens   
The Moons   
Celestial Events   

4.   The Essænce   
Flowstorms   
Spells   
Spell Casting   
Spell Manifestation   
Realms   

5.   Geography   
Climate   
Weather   
Magnetosphere   
Tides   
Ecology   
The Continents   

6.   Gods and Religion   
The Orhan Pantheon   
The Charôn Pantheon   
Suggested Patrons by Profession   
Religions   

7.   Races   
Non-Humans   
Humans   
Immortals   

8.   History   
The First Era   
The Interregnum   
The Second Era   
The Third Era   

9.   People and Groups of Note   
Loremasters   
Navigators   

10.   Languages   
Dictionaries   

11.   Appendix   
Gems & Metals   
Cultures   
Regions   
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on June 21, 2010, 01:11:44 PM
Quote from: egdcltd on June 20, 2010, 05:30:46 PM
What's the international shipping going to be like on the printed version? And will you be offering any deals for buying both the pdf and printed versions?

The expectation is that the print-on-demand service that we will be using will have (at least) two outlets, one based in the USA, one in the UK. Customers will receive their books from the nearest outlet, so North Americans would use the US point, Europeans the UK point, and everyone else whoever is cheapest for them.

On behalf of Guild Companion Publications Ltd, I wish to state explicitly that we will not be using Mjolnir/ICE for shipping and handling of any print products. I also wish to state explicitly that our customers will not be relying on my ability and/or availability to process print order, deal with customs forms, or physically pack products. We are leaving that to professionals.

(Anyone who has seen my efforts at giftwrapping will doubtless be breathing a sigh of relief at this point.)

In terms of pdf/print bundles, that is a decision that we cannot currently finalise as it depends on what our print-on-demand supplier can support and they are still making final fine-tunings to their system..

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 21, 2010, 01:35:54 PM
Quote
we will not be using Mjolnir/ICE for shipping and handling of any print products. I also wish to state explicitly that our customers will not be relying on my ability and/or availability to process print order, deal with customs forms, or physically pack products.

That's fortunate! I'm still waiting on an order for well over a year now. (Perhaps I should stop being so patient).
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on June 21, 2010, 01:38:59 PM
Quote from: Elrik on June 20, 2010, 05:54:49 PM
Do you guys have a marketing plan for this or just boarding it?

Yes, we do have a marketing plan, and elements of this will start becoming visible in the days and weeks to come. Currently your best and most reliable source of news is my monthly editorials in the Guild Companion magazine where I report on project progress and sometimes give previews.

However I am very mindful that none of the twenty-plus people working on GCP Ltd projects are doing that work as their day job. All of them work on these projects in their spare time and I do not like committing them in public  to timelines that they may not be able to achieve for no fault of their own. Thus I only discuss projects that have made steady progress and are relatively mature. As more of our projects reach that maturity, more will be revealed.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: ICEBruce on June 21, 2010, 01:49:24 PM
Craggles all the orders in your profile show as PDFs or Shipped. Send me a PM as you are not anywhere on my current CS list
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: egdcltd on June 21, 2010, 01:59:24 PM
Nice to know shipping will be from the UK. That will be much, much cheaper than from the US.

Regarding in-progress projects, I understand that these annoying job things do make it unfair to try and force people to work to a timeline, but a list of current projects and a rough %done would be nice. I do read the GC editorials, mostly to check up on progress, but I'm sure there are some things in the works that haven't been properly announced that it would be nice - and quite possibly useful - to know about.

EDIT: Also, you could post news about project X but say that people who are needed to do Y things on X.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 21, 2010, 02:20:40 PM
Quote
Craggles all the orders in your profile show as PDFs or Shipped. Send me a PM as you are not anywhere on my current CS list

Hi Bruce - PM sent and I've forwarded our previous email communications as well. Thanks.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: ICEBruce on June 21, 2010, 02:47:18 PM
So the replacement for the 4500 misprint and the free 6402 is it?  I remember packing those up but will do so again.

Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 21, 2010, 02:51:03 PM
Quote
So the replacement for the 4500 misprint and the free 6402 is it?  I remember packing those up but will do so again.

Yep - those are they. They've definitely not arrived so you may need to talk to UPS. :-\

Thanks Bruce. :)
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on June 21, 2010, 08:41:36 PM
@Nicholas
I hope so Nicholas, because in the last 3 years I have seen a number of good ideas and great products hit the edge of their niche market and go no further. I for one would like to see your group present a more cohesive message and make it easier for the neophyte to find information.

Like so many on this board I have thousands of hours and a mountain of money invested into ICE. It is in my best interest that you succeed. So I hope you do.

Now that I have proven myself to be a rude netcitizen by high jacking this thread and basically being a jerk. I will leave you be.

Thanks and best of luck.

E


Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Kurgath on June 22, 2010, 03:00:43 AM
I hestitated before writing this because I don't want it to sound negative - so please don't take it as negative!

My question is "is Terry on-board with this publication?"

Even if he isn't involved in the writing could he at least have a checking/approval role?

Although I applaud having others involved in the writing and production of SW material, if it is not at least blessed by Terry then it will sit uncomfortably with the purists (how many threads on this forum have been about what is canon and what is not?)

Perhaps this is a moot point if, as it appears by the list of contents, that this is largely a repackaging of existing material?

This last question is where I risk sounding negative - I don't mean it to be - I'm sure it will be a very engaging and great looking product that players will welcome.

K

Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on June 22, 2010, 03:45:00 AM
Quote from: Elrik on June 21, 2010, 08:41:36 PM
@Nicholas
I hope so Nicholas, because in the last 3 years I have seen a number of good ideas and great products hit the edge of their niche market and go no further. I for one would like to see your group present a more cohesive message and make it easier for the neophyte to find information.

Like so many on this board I have thousands of hours and a mountain of money invested into ICE. It is in my best interest that you succeed. So I hope you do.

Now that I have proven myself to be a rude netcitizen by high jacking this thread and basically being a jerk. I will leave you be.

Thanks and best of luck.

E

Elrik, I considered your post to be very reasonable and quite appropriate to the thread. It is perfectly sensible to want to see the Player's Guide succeed, to worry about whether the marketing is being effective, etc. I worry about the same things, and I am always open to suggestions.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on June 22, 2010, 03:51:36 AM
Quote from: Kurgath on June 22, 2010, 03:00:43 AM
I hestitated before writing this because I don't want it to sound negative - so please don't take it as negative!

My question is "is Terry on-board with this publication?"

Even if he isn't involved in the writing could he at least have a checking/approval role?

Although I applaud having others involved in the writing and production of SW material, if it is not at least blessed by Terry then it will sit uncomfortably with the purists (how many threads on this forum have been about what is canon and what is not?)

Perhaps this is a moot point if, as it appears by the list of contents, that this is largely a repackaging of existing material?

This last question is where I risk sounding negative - I don't mean it to be - I'm sure it will be a very engaging and great looking product that players will welcome.

K

Terry has been involved throughout the project and is definitely on board with this publication. Once he catches up with the forum posts, he'll say so himself. He's been doing Rolemaster stats for his Eyes of Stone scenario for TGA#4.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 22, 2010, 04:05:56 AM
Quote
Perhaps this is a moot point if, as it appears by the list of contents, that this is largely a repackaging of existing material?

Technically, I suppose there's nothing 'new' - but this product is for players to become acclimatised to the Shadow World and giving all the general knowledge about Kulthea that they'd need. It talks about lots of things - basically everything that makes Kulthea unique.

It also has no 'GM only' secrets so it's also very safe - Although I personally think this is a great resource for GMs too.

What's 'new' is that all the information a player needs is bundled into one product without the risk of revealing secret information as there would be if they're reading a Master Atlas for instance. One publication to flick through (or click through if you have the PDF) and all the information is easy to find.

Hopefully, this will help those RM users who are curious about the Shadow World to take the next step and would help GMs convince their current players that Shadow World is good. If I wasn't already an RM and Shadow World user, I'd convert!  ;D

Quote
And will you be offering any deals for buying both the pdf and printed versions?

This probably won't make me popular, but in general, I've always felt that the PDFs should be free when you buy the printed book. :P
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: egdcltd on June 22, 2010, 04:18:50 AM
Quote from: craggles on June 22, 2010, 04:05:56 AM
This probably won't make me popular, but in general, I've always felt that the PDFs should be free when you buy the printed book. :P

Me too. Although I'm willing to make an exception to help support Shadow World.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 22, 2010, 04:34:35 AM
Quote
Me too. Although I'm willing to make an exception to help support Shadow World.

...and me too. :P
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on June 22, 2010, 09:39:42 AM
@Nicholas
Thanks.

This probably won't make me popular, but in general, I've always felt that the PDFs should be free when you buy the printed book.

That is all perception of Value. They both have the exact same value, and different uses. When you buy a PDF you are paying for features you don't have in a regular paper book.

Although a PDF does not have to suffer a printer. Still, how many want to tear apart a $30.00 book so they can print off pages? With a PDF it takes you as long as it takes to find the right page and print.

A PDF comes with an assumed Licence of use. At least that is how I look at it. When you buy a PDF you are paying for certain rights and freedom's that you can't possibly get from a paper book.

So if the book is $30 and the PDF is $15, you are paying for uses that you would not get from that book.

When you give things away you diminish its value. In turn that changes perception of the client. Then it gets harder to charge them.

The thing that took me the longest to understand is that, Value wise, the PDF is worth more, because you can do more. But people love good books, and that is perceived value. Clients don't always see Worth over Perception. They see a value in the book because they can hold it, and store it and add it to their library, then they go to the PDF and print off pages, share it with their friends and actually use it like a tool.

How many people have the PDF's on their computer/laptop and use them instead of the books in a game? My Laptop screen is my GM screen and I have all the pages right there in front of me, all on one portable hard drive. Very easy. And no school bag full of books when I go over to my buddies place to run the game.

As always just my opinion.

E


Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 22, 2010, 03:51:32 PM
That's an interesting point and I hadn't thought about that.

I must now question my entire belief system. :P

Although in my case, as a chronic migraine sufferer, I try to spend as much time away from a screen (which is the specific reason I started my daughters in roleplaying but my screen time has been maximised while doing the Player's Guide) :P so books are always my preference. I treat PDFs as the second choice when the book and/or postage is too high for my budget.

PDFs have the ability to be searched but unless the author has done some PDF programming magic (like 0one's 'rule the dungeon' functionality to show and hide different layers), then being searchable is it's only gimmick. Although I suppose being portable is another good feature.

Working in the print industry where I output PDFs all over the place, I suppose I treat any product PDFs with about as much respect compared to their elite printed versions.

You did make a good point and that may well be cause for higher PDF prices - we'll see what Nicholas' print/PDF fulfilment options will be once the book is finished. ...we know who to blame now. ;D

I'm safe though - I already have the PDF!!!!! Mwahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: markc on June 22, 2010, 03:52:38 PM
Vroom;
 The contents list looks great, IMO.


MDC
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on June 22, 2010, 04:25:28 PM
@craggles

 "You did make a good point and that may well be cause for higher PDF prices - we'll see what Nicholas' print/PDF fulfilment options will be once the book is finished. ...we know who to blame now. "

Nice.  :o

It would not be the first time a pack of angry villagers stormed my tower at night. This could make it four towers so far! Making friends is so difficult.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on June 22, 2010, 05:12:54 PM
Quote
It would not be the first time a pack of angry villagers stormed my tower at night. This could make it four towers so far! Making friends is so difficult.

;D
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Terry K. Amthor on June 23, 2010, 05:57:52 PM
Hi all,

Yes I am completely on board with this!  :D While much of the material is previously written (by me), I think you'll find it worth while just to have a handy summary in a fresh new presentation. Nicholas and the GC crew run everything by me; there won't be any SW releases that I don't personally approve of/have my hands in. And still all of the new material will be written by me or at least guided closely by me. Now, after I finish statting this adventure, it's back to Emer III...
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Terry K. Amthor on June 23, 2010, 06:01:28 PM
Oh BTW on the PDF vs. book front, I personally have found having the PDFs to be an incredibly useful tool when I need to find a reference (after all these years and so many books, I can't keep it all in my head--you guys know how complex just the timeline is). I have all my book PDFs in on folder, run that Acrobat full search, and boom. Much better even than an index! In the future I'd like us to use the functionality of PDFs even more, giving them more value with hyperlinks to special online material, for instance.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: RandalThor on June 28, 2010, 11:48:10 AM
It is funny you mention how much "faster" it is to search a .pdf than a physical book because it didn't go that way at our last game. I found a specific rule in the main SR4a book faster than about 4 others did searching the .pdfs. I am just a book person, I like the physical book. I am a nerd, and proud of it. A pretty book is something special and an electronic file will probably never replace that feeling for me.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Elrik on June 28, 2010, 12:05:35 PM
Books are to be collected and cherished. PDF's are tools. I totally agree RandalThor.

Although, being familiar with a book helps a great deal. =-)
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: RandalThor on June 30, 2010, 11:38:53 PM
Am I hearing this right? The way you all are "talking" about it makes it sound like it is out now, but I cannot find it to buy (which I most definately will do).
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on July 01, 2010, 02:23:13 AM
Very soon!

There's an extra section for some 'Wonders of Shadow World' which has required a few more illustrations.

...stay tuned.  :)
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: NicholasHMCaldwell on July 01, 2010, 03:39:30 AM
Quote from: RandalThor on June 30, 2010, 11:38:53 PM
Am I hearing this right? The way you all are "talking" about it makes it sound like it is out now, but I cannot find it to buy (which I most definately will do).

It is not yet finished, but will be soon.

Best wishes,
Nicholas
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: RandalThor on July 01, 2010, 09:46:30 PM
Goodie, goodie. (Now lets just hope I clear up my downloadingfrom ICE problem before then.....)
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Terry K. Amthor on July 02, 2010, 06:50:48 PM
I think you will find the new Player's Guide worth the wait.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: Wōdwulf Seaxaning on August 01, 2010, 01:35:32 AM
Sweet can't wait till it's done.
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: darksilver on August 02, 2010, 10:09:45 AM
Just curious. Do we have an eta? Also, will it be available in print or only pdf, and is it a Guild Companion publication?
Title: Re: Shadow World Player Guide
Post by: craggles on August 02, 2010, 11:12:32 AM
Quote
Just curious. Do we have an eta?

Unfortunately, some of my killer migraines have returned so there were large delays but it's almost done now!

Quote
Also, will it be available in print or only pdf

Print and PDF - and the print version will be in colour!!!! :)

Quote
and is it a Guild Companion publication?

Yes - Just like Xa-ar was and Emer 3 will be.