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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: juza on November 10, 2016, 04:59:41 AM
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Hi guys,
I started this topic because one of my players, a 5th level warrior monk, asked me if he could change profession and at the next level will start to become a Magician. He have 90 in the prime stats of the new profession and actually I have no good arguments to not allow him to do it.
What do you think about this?
Thank you for yours advices.
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Profession in RM is a loaded word. It is not just your job description but it is meant to describe the great many years of training and shaping of yoru whole world view. That is why the skill costs for just about everything change from one profession to another.
So unless your warrior monk is prepared to not go up to that next level for about 15 years then the answer is probably no. It opens an entire can of worms as well as if you allow this how can you justify that last week it cost him only a few DPs to buy some of the core Monk skills but this week those costs have doubled or tripled, it is the same person doing the same practice of the same skills?
HARP does allow multi classes but the professions in RM are much more restrictive.
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he thinks that the skill costs mirror the time you spend in exercise in some abilities. as a warrior monk now he spends a lot of time in practing martial arts and self disciple abilitis, and then he will spend the same time in reading books and learning magic. So the skills cost of a profession do not mirror a self inclination but the time you spend styuding or practing a particular skill.
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That is OK, what he thinks is largely irrelevant as he is not running the game.
Of most importance is do you as GM want people to do this? If the answer is no then tell him that he can learn open lists to 5th level if he pays the points to learn them. Take it or leave it.
If you are happy for him to do this and you accept than none of your players will probably ever play a straight pure spell caster again then you just need to work it into the story. In your world can someone learn magic without any sort of teacher? If not then there is a quest right there to find a suitable master. That master may then make demands to prove that the character is serious.
I would hit the character with some heavy penalties. I would strip him of all his professional bonuses from his skills, after all he is changing his entire world view from one centred on striving for human excellence and discipline to opening his mind and emotions to the possibilities of the entire universe.
I would probably only give the character half his development points when he levels up because he is changing profession.
It strikes me that 4th level is exactly the most optimal time to do this. He gas probably bought some key skills at 2 ranks a level for 5 levels which means that diminishing returns would be about to kick in.
I would make the quest to find a teacher prepared to take him on last a few levels worth of advancement just to see how he manages going up levels as a monk when he knows he wants to be a magician.
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Mixing professions can potentially create significant abuses. Compare a character built as a warrior monk + magician to an essence monk semi-spellcaster. The former gains advantages by buying a lot of skills at the specialist costs.
I would contemplate allowing a profession change if 1) the character has already started buying skills from the new profession at their higher cost, 2) the character is already behaving as and acting in the role of their new profession, and 3) they are moving from a specialist profession towards a semi or hybrid profession that combines their old profession with something new. So, for example here, I would want the character to start learning magic as a warrior monk (this entails a DP cost which helps balance things out), I would want their roleplaying and party role to start shifting towards being about magic more than combat (so the profession change is the result of his behavior change rather than its cause), and I would let him shift to a profession like an essence based monk but not to magician.
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I've typically allowed Profession changes, but I'm also in the minority as I don't view Professions as the same "lifepath" other RM users do. Comes from tweaking RM to modern settings, I suspect: the "Profession as lifepath" model doesn't work as well there.
When someone in my games changes Profession, they go back to first level. They don't get profession bonuses in the new Profession (that's my only real concession to the "Profession as lifepath" model, but they don't lose the existing bonuses), and they get HALF DPs until they reach their former level (so a character who switches at 4th level only gets half DPs until they reach 4th level in the new Profession). If you're in RM2 they'd have to earn double XPs to reach second level in the new profession (no free 10,000 XPs). Since Spell Points in stock RM2 come from stats, the odds are an Arms type switching to magic will have issues getting SPs anyhow, but you could always prohibit them from casting until they reach level 2 (they have to master the techniques or whatever).
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I would not allow any change of profession. Profession in Rolemaster works a little differently than some games, especially games that allow multiclassing. Profession in Rolemaster represents 'training and inclinations in early life.' [RM2 Character Law, p. 33; emphasis mine]. RM2 also goes on to say that the Magician finds spells easy to learn because he has 'spent much of his early life studying spells'. So Profession is not just what you are currently studying; it is what you studied in your formative years that made you the person you are today. You can change what you are currently studying, but you can't change what you studied during those formative years.
Games like Dungeons and Dragons need multiclassing because they have hard caps on what your characters can do. Fighters simply can't learn spells unless they multiclass (let's leave feats out of it for now, for simplicity's sake). But Rolemaster has only soft caps. Rolemaster fighters can learn spells-- they just have to pay a higher cost for them. So Rolemaster doesn't need multiclassing. And in fact multiclassing contradicts the RAW Rolemaster definition of class.
If you are happy allowing your player to multiclass, that is fine for you as a houserule. Anyone of course is welcome to change the rules for their own game, if that makes sense for them. Just keep in mind it will allow his character to become much more powerful than other characters, and that it contradicts the RAW Rolemaster definition of class.
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And in fact multiclassing contradicts the Rolemaster definition of class.
If you are happy allowing your player to multiclass, that is fine for you as a houserule. Just keep in mind it will allow his character to become much more powerful than other characters, and that it contradicts the basic Rolemaster definition of class.
And that definition in my experience is what makes RM so difficult to use "as is" outside of fantasy settings. I've always found it interesting that so many people will toss just about everything relating to RM out the window (Prime Requisites, XPs, and so on) but remain so fixated on this one thing.
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And in fact multiclassing contradicts the Rolemaster definition of class.
If you are happy allowing your player to multiclass, that is fine for you as a houserule. Just keep in mind it will allow his character to become much more powerful than other characters, and that it contradicts the basic Rolemaster definition of class.
And that definition in my experience is what makes RM so difficult to use "as is" outside of fantasy settings. I've always found it interesting that so many people will toss just about everything relating to RM out the window (Prime Requisites, XPs, and so on) but remain so fixated on this one thing.
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with changing the definition of profession, and I am perfectly willing to contemplate whether the definition of profession needs to be changed. I am open to the idea. I just wanted to outline the Rules As Written in the original version of the game, and explain why allowing a change of profession contradicts it.
So what I am saying is you can certainly change the definition of profession. It will however necessitate some significant further changes in the game because of the balance issues: a 10th level character who has spent 5 levels as a Warrior Monk and 5 levels as a Magician will be much more powerful than a character who has spent 10 levels as either of those two classes. The hybrid character will be much better rounded, and be competent in both spells and melee abilities. Trying to balance monsters that have been able to multiclass will be less effective too, if you are trying to balance them by level. A Demon that is a 10th level fighter/ 10th level sorcerer will be much more of a challenge for the party than a Demon that is a 20th level fighter.
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To an extent, perhaps, but if you're taking RAW stuff, a fighter who converts to Magician will be seriously hindered by the restrictions on inorganic material with regard to casting (no armor, weapons seriously limited, and so on). Also, most characters who switch (unless they had spectacular rolls) will be hindered in terms of DPs because most players who take Arms initially use the SP stats as dumping grounds for their less-attractive rolls. And a magician who converts to Arms will have difficulty casting (due to the inorganic material stuff already mentioned) and wouldn't continue to gain SPs and would find spell list acquisition seriously curtailed (once the costs shift to those of a Fighter).
But I digress. I've found it workable with minimal issues...in no small part because it normally happens at lower levels. Most players have no desire to start over at first level with half DPs if they've made it to tenth level in a profession. I get that it may not work for others, but newcomers should know that some of us have found it both possible and workable within its limits.
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Well, I will defer to your experience here because i have not playtested that. I agree with what you say about there being limitations on armor and things like that. Where i suspect you will run into problems is with the medium and light fighters and Mentalists, who can combine effective arms with spells that are not much affected by armor limitations. Say a warrior monk with adrenal defense takes a level or two in magician, and can now pump up his already impressive DB by 35 more points with spells like shield and blur at a trivial cost. I think there you are going to run into some balance issues.
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Your example is valid, but I'd control it by restricting access to trainers (or spell lists). Keep in mind, too, that under my system a spell caster stops gaining SPs when they abandon the casting Profession. So if the warrior monk jumps to magician she'd lose cheap combat skills, and if it's a magician shifting over he'd be capped in SPs to what he had prior to the change. That and gaining new spell lists would be difficult. Under RM2 I also capped casting at the last level gained as a caster (so if you learned the list to 10th level but jumped at fourth, you'd only be able to cast spells from 1st to 4th level).
I always figured that balance was to a degree something the GM has almost total control over. In your example, I'd just throw a Monastic Lich at said PC...
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I don't use professions at all, everyone is No Profession so this would never be an issue.
I agree very much with jdale in that I would suggest that the character would have to be living the life almost before making the change.
The trainer and quests I was suggesting earlier were to give the character time to develop that intermediate stage.
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Well, you've given me at least food for thought.
I might try to build a character to see if I could make one that I would consider unbalanced/overpowered. I think it will depend on the system too: in RMU, characters tend to have a lot more PowerPoints, which would make it easier to exploit the multiclassing. And of course professional bonuses work differently in RMU, so you'd have to figure out how to handle those when you switch classes. I expect there is a fair bit of room here for exploits, especially lightly armored Arms users who take a level or two of a caster class to gain access to some powerful utility spells. But maybe I'm wrong, and I haven't tested it.
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I allowed it back in the 80s and 90s, But learned to do it with some severe limitations.
#1 they had to find a teacher.
#2 they had to spend DPs in some "Required by Me" Skills and spells list acquisitions at the Cost of their Current Profession. (2 ranks in each skill)
#3 Once they completed #1 and #2, they Moved to the No Profession profession and had to buy at minimum 2 ranks in each Required skill and spell list aquistion at the No Profession cost. Only then could they then move to the new profession.
#4 at Each New level of No Profession and New profession, I made rolls for lost "skill" in the Old Professions Core skills, Each rank Lost would return only the Dps for buying 1 rank by old profession cost back to the character.
#5 Once the new Profession was achieved, Only then tdi they get to start switch Level bonuses. At a rate of -1 to an old Profession level bonus (minimum 0) and +1 to a New profession Level bonus (to the max of that professions normal bonus) Per level until Max bonus is achieved.
So it took several levels to make the switch, and it came at a cost to the Old skills
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Interesting Warl. What problems did you find that led you to make those rules?
I think I can already see one that would be a significant problem in RMU, due to RMU's skill costs being so much less varied than RM2's: players could switch classes just to get access to new base lists at a trivial cost. So for example my Mentalist could say he wants to switch to Lay Healer. The skill costs for most skills are virtually identical, so this won't really adversely affect him in the way it would have in RM2 (which had individual skill costs), and he will now have access to the best healing spells in the game. Sure, he has to find a teacher... but from what I am gathering, most of you would allow that, so I don't see that as a significant obstacle. The same could be said of a Ranger who wants Paladin spells, or a Cleric who wants Druid spells, or an Illusionist who wants Magician spells. Have your Illusionist take his first few levels in Magician (till he gets firebolt), and then you can take all the rest in Illusionist. This wasn't so much of a problem in RM2, when skill costs were individualized and varied greatly by class. But when classes are essentially just different archetypes with more or less the same costs in most categories, you set up a system where the costs of switching classes are minimal. Why pay the closed/restricted costs (6/8 or more) for the spell lists rather than simply switching classes for a level or two and gaining the spells at a cost of 1/2?
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I do like your idea though Warl of requiring one level of No Profession, as the character transitions to the new profession.
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Or why not do this? Play your Illusionist up to level 5. At level 6, instead of spending 6/8 to buy two ranks in the Magician's list Fire Law, just switch to Magician and pay 1/2/2/2/2/2 to get 6 ranks, all the way up to Firebolt. You'll save something on the order of 31 Development points that way: instead of paying 6/8, 6/8, 6/8 to get to Firebolt, you now pay just 1/2/2/2/2/2. Presto, you've now got a character with the best spells from both classes, and you've saved 31 development points to do it.
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the problems I experienced were exactly what has been mentioned before, Trying to have Characters that could do Everything well.
The players would avoid developing skills they wanted until they could switch to a profession that had a lower cost. All the while dumping every point they had into the lowest cost skills of the class they currently had.
Especially was bad in the Warrior monk/High Warrior Monk Switch to Magician or Magician/Caster switch to High Warrior Monk.
I even tried the " to add a new profession, Average the costs of the old profession with the new Profession" Route. and that just became a head ache...
Today I just stick with the "you can't" rule and if you want to develop Skills/spell lists, you are stuck with the Life path you chose.
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Or why not do this? Play your Illusionist up to level 5. At level 6, instead of spending 6/8 to buy two ranks in the Magician's list Fire Law, just switch to Magician and pay 1/2/2/2/2/2 to get 6 ranks, all the way up to Firebolt. You'll save something on the order of 31 Development points that way: instead of paying 6/8, 6/8, 6/8 to get to Firebolt, you now pay just 1/2/2/2/2/2. Presto, you've now got a character with the best spells from both classes, and you've saved 31 development points to do it.
Which is exactly the problem of killing the balance in the game.
Hell He doesn't need the Magician Base lists to get access to a fire bolt. He could develop the Warrior mage spell list (from RM2) Elemental Ways and get access to all Bolt spells + Stun cloud, Cold Ball and fire ball, vacuum, fog, Projected light and all other sorts of fun elemental spells.
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I would note that warrior monk -> magician is probably the most abusive profession change available with the core professions, any way. As a warrior monk you can quickly build Adrenal Defense and Body Development (and some other skills apply to this, but those are the main ones) that patch the weakness in the "glass cannon" design of the Magician.
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Actually we are playing RMFRP.
about changing profession I'm am only worried about game balance but is an experiment that I'm tempted to do just to see what happens. Of course the warrior monk has to find a teacher and that will not be so easy.
I like the suggestion you gave me about managing this change, especially the ones from Warl. I think that is a good idea to start becoming a magician using the dp cost of the warrior monk for a couple of levels just to mimic the difficulties of changing field of study. But I'm not sure about passing through the No profession, maybe is better to pass through the essence monk.
For spell casting you think I have to consider, when the player will be already a magician, the actual level or only the magician level? Maybe the second option is better..
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I'm in the same group as PeterR and Hurin with this one, as were all of the GM's that gamed with us back in the day and it ties in heavily with what Hurin stated in an additional post:
Games like Dungeons and Dragons need multiclassing because they have hard caps on what your characters can do. Fighters simply can't learn spells unless they multiclass (let's leave feats out of it for now, for simplicity's sake). But Rolemaster has only soft caps. Rolemaster fighters can learn spells-- they just have to pay a higher cost for them. So Rolemaster doesn't need multiclassing. And in fact multiclassing contradicts the RAW Rolemaster definition of class.
RM (in particular RM2 as I have the most experience with that version vs. the newer versions) allows anyone to do pretty much any thing they want either at a cost or with a penalty (-50 to the roll or something similar). Unlike AD&D where you simply cannot learn this skill unless you're a Barbarian, and you cannot do that skill unless you're a Rogue, and you can't cast magic at all unless you're a spellcaster and so on. The idea of multiclass works well within that system. That system was built up with that multiclass ability built in and has rules such as one cannot earn XP in the second class if the level difference is greater than 2 in the primary class or something like that. It got pretty confusing at times when changing classes but there are restrictions built in to help balance things.
RM is similar in that balancing in that your character can learn ANY skill he'd like if you are willing to pay the DP cost and to meet the requirements such as "non-organic armour interferes with casting" or "no head covering". We had one fighter learn a spell list once. It cost him 20DP for 5% chance to learn an open list to level 5. Eventually he rolled 96 on the spell gain roll and he could cast simple spells to level 5 from that list. Simply put, he's NOT a spell caster, he's a fighter, but he can certainly learn and practice spell casting in his free time and lo and behold, something clicked and he can cast a spell. RM has semi-spell user classes that offer a little of both worlds; slightly higher costs for the martial and magic, but considerably lower than a spell caster learning martial skills or a fighter learning magic skills.
I don't use professions at all, everyone is No Profession so this would never be an issue.
I've experimented with this as well with a small group of players. Every one was No Profession or was Professional, but the profession had to be one that was NOT already in RM2 books. A player couldn't say "My profession is Cavalier!" It had to be Baker, Blacksmith, Fisherman, or something similar. That was a really fun game. The townsfolk were left defenseless when the king's men and sentries were recalled to the capital to defend against an attack and the outlying towns were left to fend for themselves. It made for an extremely fun campaign and really interesting character skill choices.
I would note that warrior monk -> magician is probably the most abusive profession change available with the core professions, any way. As a warrior monk you can quickly build Adrenal Defense and Body Development (and some other skills apply to this, but those are the main ones) that patch the weakness in the "glass cannon" design of the Magician.
This is why we (my group of players/GMs) didn't allow class changes. How unfair would it be to be a Warrior Monk buying all the great fighting skills at the lowest DP cost in the game, then switching to a spell caster to buy all the spells costs at the lowest DP in the game, then switching to Assassin to buy all the stealth skills at the best price in the game? Why not just say every skill in the game costs 1/2 since you're just going to switch to a new Profession when you want to buy a skill that is too expensive? Adrenal Defense too high? Be a Warrior Monk for 1 level and buy up the skills. Sense Ambush Assassin cost too high? Be an Assassin for 2 levels and buy up those skills.
The balance is there. Some folks have an affinity for magic and it comes to them more easily. Training in martial skills means learning weapons skills are picked up more easily. That doesn't mean the fighter can't learn First Aid and Second Aid and Surgery. You just may not want HIM to work on you vs. a trained Healer.... but if you're in a battle field bleeding out, I'll take that fighter with the mediocre skills vs. the Maleficant with no healing skills at all!
This is our group's take on multiclassing. Others have posted here and have shown that it works for them and their group, but I think this says it best.....
That is OK, what he thinks is largely irrelevant as he is not running the game.
Of most importance is do you as GM want people to do this? If the answer is no then tell him that he can learn open lists to 5th level if he pays the points to learn them. Take it or leave it.
If you are happy for him to do this and you accept than none of your players will probably ever play a straight pure spell caster again then you just need to work it into the story....
You're the GM. Does Multiclass exist in your world? If you allow it, all of the other players will start fishing for the professions with great DP costs to bolster their weaker/DP-expensive skills. Everyone will tend towards Fighter/Spellcasters to get the best of both worlds. Has this player ever GM'd a session of RM? I found that once I was on the other side of the screen, a lot of the "heavy handed decisions" the GM handed down made a ton of sense once I saw the internal workings of a gaming session.
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Holy crap. I apologize for the long post. I didn't realize it was that long until I saw it all posted in the thread. :o
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Profession-hopping the way I deal with Profession changes would give you a character who might have a fair number of HPs from Body Development but would be handicapped when it came to other skill bonuses. One level of Assassin? That's two picks of a skill with no profession bonuses (in all probability, unless he came from a Profession that had similar bonuses originally). Jump to a magic class? Spell points are based on your level in that Profession, meaning you'd have precious few and would spend a great deal of time scrounging for teachers and lists.
It's all good, though. I just post to show it can work if you manage it correctly (depending on the tone of your game and group, obviously). And if you're using non-fantasy sourcebooks it's almost essential unless you like No Profession (and I'm firmly in the camp that never has liked that 'profession' idea at all).