Official ICE Forums
Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: PhillipAEllis on September 17, 2013, 04:37:59 PM
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G'day!
I talk elsewhere on the board about a concept, which, for want of a better title, I have called Rolemaster for Dummies (tres unoriginal of me, I know :) ). The idea is to introduce new players & GMs to the game, explain their options, how to run and play sessions, how to be a great GM and great players, and to navigate their options with the system. In short, make Rolemaster less daunting for the beginners.
This poll is asking you how you would love to see a potential Rolemaster for Dummies, should I ever help get it going. I want to, as it is, I feel a great idea, something I would have loved when I started playing RPGs, and something that I feel would give value to the game and the wider gaming environment.
Please add your comments below, about the options, about the idea, and about what you would love to see covered should I help get the idea going. Thank you for your time and patience,
Phillip
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No boxed set?
(Actually is your intent to be a starter RM set or more of a guidebook?)
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A .pdf and a softcover, to cut production expenses to a bare minimum. Why? Because it should be free. The point of "Rolemaster for Dummies" is to generate an incentive to buy and use other RM products, right?
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Agree with GoF about the PDF format. This is something that needs to be free and serve as a teaser to get folks moving into RM. You might also want to consider the impact of other genre areas if the RMU rules actually end up being core rules for a system that expands beyond fantasy. By that I mean you could have a section just dealing with RM concepts (stats, skills, dice rolling) that would remain constant no matter what genre is being used, and then have your basic fantasy content for RMU. If it's both free and an introduction, it needs to cover both bases, IMO.
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Good question, Old Man: my idea is more of a guidebook, but also partly a general introduction to the concept of roleplaying and being a great gamer. There is the following post from John that covers the starter RM set idea for RMU:
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=12697.msg175246#msg175246 (http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=12697.msg175246#msg175246)
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By the way (before I forget) you change change your responses on this poll, and can choose more than just one option.
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I chose them all (nice that I could do that), because I took the question at face value. But, if it was supposed to be more like: "Of the following options, which do you think would be the best for bringing in new players?" (Probably with the option to choose up to 2 or 3 items from the list.) Then I would say: PDF, Software, and Website for help - though, in a "dumbed down" version they shouldn't need too much help.
Hands down, software is really important for RM, even a dumbed down version, because there can be lots of crunching, and the trend is moving towards electronic applications more and more.
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While I do like the idea of a simple guidebook that gives new players an interest. I wonder, how many people would start a game blind. I guess what I am asking is, when I first started playing rolemaster six years ago, my GM sat down at a table with seven people who had never played and walked us individually through the character creation process. Going over skills, mechanics and classes. I am not certain without someone to lay the initial foundation since rolemaster is very complex, that a book would be of use.
I mean certainly, I have lead a system that was unfamiliar with. However, I just wonder what it would have to entail to make it a good foundation. I assume that it would only include warrior classes then, leaving out semi and full mages do to spell lists and whatnot. Just curious.
In response to the poll, I have marked ebook, because they are easiest to share.
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Depends on what the product's target audience is, players or GM's?
I would target GM's as that is the foundation of all RPG's.
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I chose website as for a game we play now we are constantly on a site that has the most up to date rules of the system. It makes it very easy to check things. But I do agree that this "sites" format would not work for RM for Dumb Bunnies. The site should be very simple, ie (using RMU) to succeed on a skill roll you roll D100 add your skill and modifiers and tell the GM, the GM then adds any modifiers that the player does not know about and if the result is over 100 you succeed at the task.
MDC
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I’ve always thought Shadowrun's “Runners Toolkit” was about the best GM starter kit for any of the games I’ve played/GM’d…
• It had great Art. Art feeds the imagination.
• Full page PC examples
• A basic “Anatomy of a Shadowrun” that explained how things came together.
• Similar to section 4.6 in RMExpress – that was great, it broke down the combat rules in a way that made sense.
• Lots of NPC examples.
• A really nice GM shield, it didn’t get used that much, but was awesome just the same.
I know that Shadowrun is more story driven and linear where RMx is more of a hardware platform that you bring your campaign into, modify it to work with the rules. So some sort of starter package could be put together that tastefully shows off Rolemaster’s strengths - a package for GM’s that hadn’t played in a while to feel confident in running a game.
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Depends on what the product's target audience is, players or GM's?
I would target GM's as that is the foundation of all RPG's.
You need to do both, but in my experience it's more important with RM to target the GMs as you suggest. RM requires (nay, demands) a level of GM competence that (again in my experience) is higher than many games. And in response to iMike's comment, I've always found it to be the reverse: you modify the RM rules to work with your campaign. It's that modular aspect that makes RM so powerful, but it's also why it requires an above-average level of GM competence.
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I notice I can actually compensate for player newbieness. When they just say what they want to accomplish and I then rattle off the necessary maneuvers. They take more time looking up the skills and rolling than I need to support the Roleplaying effort.
It is actually a good idea making a "for dummies book". In my opinion it should target GMs and note which sections pertain to players, because GMs need the same info as players so it can be used by both.
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I notice I can actually compensate for player newbieness. When they just say what they want to accomplish and I then rattle off the necessary maneuvers. They take more time looking up the skills and rolling than I need to support the Roleplaying effort.
It is actually a good idea making a "for dummies book". In my opinion it should target GMs and note which sections pertain to players, because GMs need the same info as players so it can be used by both.
+1 on the thoughts about dealing with new players. It's easy IF you know the system and how YOU'RE going to use it. But I've played in games where the GM had no real idea about either the system or how they wanted to use it. That can kill a RM game in particular because the system is SO open. Sometimes I think we forget that because we're so used to it.
I'd say for organization you have a first section intended for both players and GMs (dealing with the basics like RM tables and such) and then the second part for GMs especially. The common knowledge needed by both should be up front so there's no hunting around. It also gives players some confidence that the GM has actually read the same thing they have.
I'd be happy to help with this, especially in terms of keeping it accessible to all types of players and GMs.
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My son came over last night, wanting me to help him build a HARP GM screen, a new player's guide, have some idea for layout of stuff he'd want to have on hand, etc.
It was an interesting evening, mainly because of how far I had to think back in order to contribute anything useful to the process. I mean, I played RM for decades, realistically all I needed in recent years was for the player to have a character sheet and both of us to have a pair of d10s. Everything else was fairly well in my head, having books and tables on hand was convenient, but hardly necessary. Same went for him, he's 26 and started on RM when he was 11.
Well, that hardly applies to HARP, for either of us. I'm not lost and neither is he, but very little of it is so deep in the subconscious that we can do without having tables to refer back to. So in thinking "what do you want at the table, and what goes on your 'heads up display'," I needed to cast my mind back to RM1 in the early 80s or AD&D in the late 70s.
And yes, that gave me a recent lesson in how
But I've played in games where the GM had no real idea about either the system or how they wanted to use it. That can kill a RM game in particular because the system is SO open. Sometimes I think we forget that because we're so used to it.
Dunno about you, but I certainly had.
Along the lines of "for Dummies," he prefers creating characters starting from the concept, as I do. To that end, my suggestions for building a "newbie player's guide to character generation" were mostly about changing the order of things:
1. The GM must provide the players with enough background in depth about his world setting so they can make intelligent choices about their character concept, to ensure that it fits well within the setting. If the player can do that, most of the other choices become comparatively obvious.
2. The player defines his character concept, meaning who the character is, rather than what the character is. "What's my motivation for this scene" and all that. At this point I don't care if you want "a half elf ranger," I care about if you want "the child of a rancher and an herbalist, spent most of his childhood in the woods or working with animals, parents wiped out in an orc attack, one sibling presumably still living but he hasn't seen or heard from them in years, has a major chip on his shoulder now about orcs, family and trusting people, not comfortable with large groups of people."
3. Choose race, culture and talents to fit the concept. Don't buy a talent unless your concept outlined above doesn't make any sense without it.
4. Then, and only then, do I care about stats and skills.
5. Once stats and skills are done, go back to talents and see if there's anything you wanted but wasn't vital that you can still afford.
However, please note: Because HARP, like RM, is so wide open and just begs to be tweaked to fit the GM's setting, none of this works without the GM defining his setting well enough to be able to explain it to the players first, before the players ever crack a book or decide anything at all about who and what they are playing.
2cp, hope it helps.
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Ditto for me with just about everything GoF said. Except the bit where his son came and we made harp-y stuff. :)
To aid my players, I threw together a new character sheet with a second page for aiding character creation. The hope was that it would speed up char gen. The amount of flicking through tables in RMU is a huge time suck.
While it did speed up the char gen process, we're still only using part of the rules - so there will be large gaps where there's no place for 'X'.
We think that slowly and incrementally switching from RM2 to RMU will work for us, I doubt that it would suit most groups. I'll whack the sheets into the vault. Just bear in mind that no effort has gone into making them pretty or comprehensive.
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When I did my world, I made sure that players had handouts for all allowed races/cultures, including the professions normally found in each group, the background skills they gained based on their place of birth, common gods, naming and some social conventions, and so on. Keep in mind that most of my groups were composed of at least 50% who'd never gamed before, and all of them found that sort of thing very helpful when it came time for them to start on their character concepts. I also had them roll for origin first, which gave them a starting point (my world was also flexible enough to allow someone who wanted to play an elf in a dominantly human realm to do that...but I also had a handout for them, too...).
Granted my system is a bit complex and not for everyone, but I found with most of my new players that they wanted that level of background and context. Mine was always rules light (or hidden behind the screen) and heavy on flavor and context (I actually had two characters get in a fight once because they were from two tribal groups that had a historic rivalry...I took that as a sign that the system was working well... ;)).
The point of the elongated discussion is that I knew how I wanted to use RM and reworked RM2 to fit my world concept (down to redoing skills and skill costs for the professions I kept). I'd seen other RM2 GMs constantly trying to fit all the Companions into their games, or simply getting everything and trusting to luck that it would work. That might work with some games...but it's a quick trip to disaster (and an unmotivated gaming group) to try it with any version of RM. We need to help newcomers to avoid those pitfalls.
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I like to put together a player packet with every game I run. Both for giving the players ideas on how to make their characters, but also so that I don't have to continue to explain things as the game goes. My hope is that the players will be able to use the information to come up with in-game ideas using the information that is in the packet. Example: They need to find some special item, and from the info packet they know of a local merchant who just might be part of the black market. I would rather they come up with the idea, based on knowledge gained from the player's packet, without me having to point them in the direction, like making them make a die roll for "memory" or something like that. The latter method is just so unsatisfactory.
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I ended up doing the same thing - an introductory PDF:
(two in fact - see http://home.comcast.net/~adurston3/Campaign-Color.html (http://home.comcast.net/~adurston3/Campaign-Color.html) at the bottom -
1) This missive contains a brief history, a brief discourse on geography, the races, the deities, and the specific details on the continent of Tarna, home of most of the campaigns.
2) This missive contains the races, character generation for Rolemaster PCs, available Rolemaster character classes, additional Rolemaster skills used/not used in these campaigns and additional rules variations. )
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I am doing much the same for my world. Except I am trying to put everything on-line so any players I do have can access the information as long as they can connect to the WWW.
Of course, I am thinking I have to move to another server since the service I have is no longer allowing me access for updating the site. I have been playing email tag with them for over two months. How much longer should I wait? Probably none. This weekend, I will look for another free hosting site and see about redoing my site.
Although I have not updated in a while (using their pathetic one-file-at-time system), you can see a precursor here: http://www.conceptvisions.net84.net/ (http://www.conceptvisions.net84.net/). Please remember I have rewritten some of the pages, just have not been able to use ftp upload with filezilla.
Not only do I have information for players, I also have information for me to refer to if needed. Of course, the info meant for me is not such that players may not access it also. Some of it, other GMs may find helpful.
The only major problem I have is not being able to design a spreadsheet for chargen like some of jdale's work and the one by allenmaher. Technically, I probably could do it, but it would probably take me a couple of years.
rmfr
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General tips for GM are not that hard to find on the net. Tips for RM GMs is a better idea, but since there was already a Gamemaster Law, what about something more towards explaining the rules (special situations, great combos, etc.) than tips about how to run a game?
And how about some kind of adventure tutorial? There is a simple adventure (or more than one --> sequels) where sometimes rules needed to resolve a situation are written down in the adventure.
Example:
The party needs to cross a chasm 10 m (11 yards) wide. There is a rope hanging over it, nailed to each side. Possible actions include the characters trying to jump over it (a Very Hard maneuver) or doing an Acrobatics maneuver using the rope.
***How to resolve a maneuver***
ya-da ya-da ya-da (maybe copy-pasted from the rulebook)
For further information, see [section title], p. [00] in [book title].
For new players and GMs, this could be a more interesting approach than to read a whole new book before playing. You have the same system, one bit at a time.
What do you think?
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Zut,
I was thinking something similar when brainstorming an intro HARP adventure. There would be three sections:
Act 1: Skill tests
Act 2: Combat
Act 3: Magic
Each introduces a layer on to the system core.
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GM Law isn't necessarily going to be easy to find, and for a free starter product I think it's wise to keep the content light. Your idea of examples is a good one, and something that should be there. There should also be examples of when NOT to use the Maneuver rolls as well, since some new GMs can get really carried away.
I do think it's important to have a tips section as well, though, because RM does leave so much up to the GM to decide. Not every GM (especially new ones) is going to be up to that challenge right away. In reference to OM's post, you need (IMO) a third section - fitting it all together.
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Zut,
I was thinking something similar when brainstorming an intro HARP adventure. There would be three sections:
Act 1: Skill tests
Act 2: Combat
Act 3: Magic
Each introduces a layer on to the system core.
\o/
I can't wait to read it!
As much as I like to know every rule of a boardgame by heart, it is a harder goal when dealing with an RPG. Usually, character creation is easy to follow, but combat and magic rules, I find those not entertaining to read. If only there were more lists and charts! For example, you want to attack: do this, and this, and this (with numbers, as this is a sequence of events); or you want to attack using a special combat maneuver skill, do this, and this, and this. I don't mind if it feels repetitive, the more I practice it, the fastest it will become automatic.
For charts, I was thinking of something like a "yes-no" chart. For example, you want to cast a spell, first question on the chart is: "what is the spell level?" Next: "do you have enough PP?" Yes --> next question, no --> stop. "Do you have enough ranks?" Yes --> next question, no --> stop. Etc. This may seem trivial for experienced players, but for new ones, these are the things you need to answer before making any roll. Anyway it is only an example, I don't think this particular situation is that hard to learn to handle.
Gamemaster Law (RMSS) is available as a PDF on RPGNow. ;D
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There's some very good ideas posted here and I think it's clear enough that new GM's will benefit the most from such a book. I'd also like to add that it also should be aimed at pre-teen to teen audiences. Zut makes some good suggestions towards the younger market. If this product existed I'd download it immediately and hand it to my son right now as he is itching to role-play. I'm so swamped with real life it's hard for me to get geared up to teach him, and I feel bad for it too. But if he could learn the basics and I could help him through it that would be a blessing.
So my question is to all you intellectual fellows, who's going to start the ball rolling? Anyone willing to be the team leader? ICE are you listening? This would make a nice Christmas present ;)
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I've already mentioned I'd be happy to help as much as possible, and I think Phillip has expressed interest as well (he kicked the idea out here, after all...).
I'd suggest a free PDF of no more than 40 pages (less if any GM advice is stripped out, which I'd advise against). Zut's structure is a good starting point, but if we're aiming for folks who've never RP'd before (or are coming in from a more rigid system) I'd go with something that starts with character creation, then moves to skills, then combat, then magic, and finally a GM section (if that's included). Again, much depends on the intent. I'm thinking from ground zero (as many of my players had never seen a tabletop RPG before or at best had played AD&D years before), but we need to decide that before going much further.
My idea of structure for a free intro product aimed at newcomers would be:
In The Beginning: Explaining RMU, some basics about rolling dice and creating a character (enough to let them roll up a basic Human).
Learning to Crawl: Flows right out of character creation into skills and their uses. Gives some examples of maneuvers, skill checks, and the like. Gives them enough to deal with basic situations.
Crossing Blades: Basics of combat (based on the character they created). Covers simple melee and missile combat with good examples (maybe by converting a movie scene into RM terms). Enough to deal with a simple skirmish or tavern brawl.
Slinging Spells: Basics of magic use. We should provide enough to let someone run a first level magician or cleric. Again nothing fancy, but tied back into character creation and skills.
Telling the Tale: The (optional) GM section with a short adventure that could be used with the characters created. Good notes about how to use what's been introduced with ideas for taking it farther. Could cover healing, NPCs, treasure, and some discussion of balancing a game.
Finally, each section should be referenced to the main RMU rules so they know where to look if they need more information. It should also be set up so that they can expand their characters into full RMU terms when they move up to the full rules.
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I won't offer to be the one to write it, mainly because I don't consider myself competent to do so, but if whoever does write it wants my input, for whatever it's worth, I'm in.
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I think an example of each of the combat techniques would be very helpful, ie disarming, retreat, etc.
MDC
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I've already mentioned I'd be happy to help as much as possible, and I think Phillip has expressed interest as well (he kicked the idea out here, after all...).
I'd suggest a free PDF of no more than 40 pages (less if any GM advice is stripped out, which I'd advise against). Zut's structure is a good starting point, but if we're aiming for folks who've never RP'd before (or are coming in from a more rigid system) I'd go with something that starts with character creation, then moves to skills, then combat, then magic, and finally a GM section (if that's included). Again, much depends on the intent. I'm thinking from ground zero (as many of my players had never seen a tabletop RPG before or at best had played AD&D years before), but we need to decide that before going much further.
My idea of structure for a free intro product aimed at newcomers would be:
In The Beginning: Explaining RMU, some basics about rolling dice and creating a character (enough to let them roll up a basic Human).
Learning to Crawl: Flows right out of character creation into skills and their uses. Gives some examples of maneuvers, skill checks, and the like. Gives them enough to deal with basic situations.
Crossing Blades: Basics of combat (based on the character they created). Covers simple melee and missile combat with good examples (maybe by converting a movie scene into RM terms). Enough to deal with a simple skirmish or tavern brawl.
Slinging Spells: Basics of magic use. We should provide enough to let someone run a first level magician or cleric. Again nothing fancy, but tied back into character creation and skills.
Telling the Tale: The (optional) GM section with a short adventure that could be used with the characters created. Good notes about how to use what's been introduced with ideas for taking it farther. Could cover healing, NPCs, treasure, and some discussion of balancing a game.
Finally, each section should be referenced to the main RMU rules so they know where to look if they need more information. It should also be set up so that they can expand their characters into full RMU terms when they move up to the full rules.
Mate, I think you hit this one on the head. In other words this is exactly what I think will work. And I like how you've staged each "chapter."
IF this idea is approved by ICE and gets off the ground then I would offer my skills to create a monochrome cover for such a project(unless my commitments force me otherwise).
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If such a project goes ahead, I'd like to vigorously lobby for a bit that explains to players the importance of figuring out the basic personality of their character, then the raison d'être of their character, then their stats, class, etc.
Too many players do it all backwards and then wonder why they have a cardboard cut out of 'stock fighter #4'.
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I agree, but I stand by what I said above: until the GM gives them a basic run-down of the world setting and the common cultures (note I did not say common races*) in his starting area, he can't reasonably expect the players to be able to come up with character concepts that fit it. If you "dunno nothin about nothin" you can still build "stock fighter #4" comparatively easily, because you have entire books to explain it to you. But if the particulars of the world concept are still in the GM's head, the player is stuck with nothing to help him mesh his ideas with that.
*A given race may have more than one culture in the area. A given culture may have more than one race that partakes of it. If your character is "born and raised in the Kingdom of Skund, and has a typical Skundian worldview and outlook," whether he is human, elf, dwarf, etc. is probably beside the point in terms of what skills, talents, etc. fit the concept.
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So, if you want a character with a little bit more depth but still aimed at a "starter" audience, what about 2-3 background tables included in the book? I think there were already some of those in a RM Companion (I can't check at the moment). People could pick one "background item" per table or roll dice. I was thinking of something like around 15 items per table.
The said items could be something like adjectives/personality traits (impatient, courageous, noble, etc.), or linked to a childhood event/situation (abandoned by relatives, has a (NPC) twin, has a fear of something, etc).
It doesn't need to cover every situation, only give a good idea of what elements could be added to a character background.
I don't think it should be bought with DP either as my intent is to give flavour, not any bonus/malus. It looks like talents and flaws, but without the advantages/drawbacks.
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I agree that the GM has to provide the context for the players to frame their character, and the stock fighter is - of course - always an option.
But players (particularly new players) often need to learn that regardless of how creative, detailed, or interesting a campaign is, if they've created a character that is a personality free zone, then they aren't as likely to enjoy themselves as they would if they'd spent some time figuring out who their character 'is'.
For some, game mechanics get in the way of this process. It's easy to start focusing on the numbers. Choosing weapons and spells based on their power - rather than what would suit a particular character. Eg, a French noble from the 16th century should probably be packing a rapier, not a boomerang.
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Sure. That's why I tell them I want to know who he is, and we'll figure out what he is later. You figure out his personality before the mechanics have any say in the process. But that's a lesson that needs to be taught to new GMs, not new players.
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Sure. That's why I tell them I want to know who he is, and we'll figure out what he is later. You figure out his personality before the mechanics have any say in the process. But that's a lesson that needs to be taught to new GMs, not new players.
Complete agreement. I think I have the order players read info on my world is to determine the Background, Personality, Alignment, Demeanor, etc. before deciding on profession, stats, etc.
But I like the way GOF put it: "...I want to know who he is, and we'll figure out what he is later.".
rmfr
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I was at a world-building seminar today and one of the panelists, taking a page from Babylon 5, said the two questions for PCs in the game world are:
1) who are you?
2) what do you want?
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The Serenity(Firefly) RPG has an excellent list of Assets and Complications. Would be nice to see those incorporated into RM.
Perhaps in character creation a minimum of Flaws should be chosen first to help flesh out the character and then choose talents accordingly.
The more flaws you have the greater or more talents can be acquired? Just a thought.
I like the idea of having several background templates to help kick off a character design...maybe based on certain movie characters?
I won't offer to be the one to write it, mainly because I don't consider myself competent to do so, but if whoever does write it wants my input, for whatever it's worth, I'm in.
Mate, I think you short change yourself. I've read some of your posts recently and I think you'd do a good job, especially for the magic section.
Which brings me to say that it shouldn't be written by just one or two writers. I think several writers would help ease the load and some may be better at giving examples or
options in one area than others. If there is want for a "world setting" then I think it should be rather simple and not to in-depth, maybe an outline of basic laws and taboos in
the area and a simple rundown on race culture if needed.
Just had a thought, it could be called "An Adventurer's Guide to Rolemaster"?
Has there been any announcement when then next RMU release is due? Nothing can really happen until that's out I guess.
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If such a project goes ahead, I'd like to vigorously lobby for a bit that explains to players the importance of figuring out the basic personality of their character, then the raison d'être of their character, then their stats, class, etc.
Too many players do it all backwards and then wonder why they have a cardboard cut out of 'stock fighter #4'.
Stat generation, particular;y when random, can be a great base for creating an original character. Personality can be derived from stats as easily as any other source. It takes some imagination, but basically explaining and seeing how the PC's stats would shape the background, family life, career and profession choices, skill selection, talents: it works very well. The main cause of cookie cutter is professions, not stats, because every profession has the exact same skill cost. No mage is bad at directed spells, no fighter is bad at melee, etc. The advantage of professions is it allows players to pick an archtype and run with it. Originality, however, is not limited by stat selection.
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Stat, profession, the GMs lack of personal hygiene... The 'why' is likely to be specific to a particular group or player. I just wanna encourage that there be a bit of 'how to role - not roll - play' available.
Do any of you have any particular tricks of the trade that you use to foster strong characterisation?
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To start, back ground, back ground, back ground.
Name of town, name of parents, where were you conceived, siblings and their names (including rolling to see how many have survived and still live), extended family with aunts and uncles, what jobs do the have or businesses do the own, what crafts is their home town known for, rich, middle class, poor, etc. In these details a persona will emerge.
In game, focus on relationships within the community. The law, the merchants, the temples, love life, how wealthy is the community, etc. The old dungeon crawl days created a world without personality, nothing more than merchants with tons of swag and unlimited gold. My goal is to create unique personality. Towns and cities and villages should have different vibes and offer different opportunities to the players. Not every community will sell weapons or armor, some won't have herbs or potions, others may not have wagons or horses. Communities should be as unique as characters, unlike the cookie cutter corperate business found in the modern world. Fantasy worlds need to avoid standardization.
A great rule that aids role playing is set Dev Points per level. This rule prevents a player from being punished when he wants to play a low Sd character, or a mage with no Me, or a sickly soul that catches a new cold every week.
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Towns and cities and villages should have different vibes and offer different opportunities to the players. Not every community will sell weapons or armor, some won't have herbs or potions, others may not have wagons or horses.
One of the biggest benefits I got from using Earth as my game map was being able to look up distribution of resources. The country that takes up most of the central Rockies of the US has lots of copper, gold and silver... but as much copper as the have available, they can't make decent bronze because they have no tin. Lots of zinc, so lots of brass... but no bronze except for "arsenic bronze." They trade for tin with the country to the west of them, which is mostly dwarves. The dwarves have just about everything you could ask for to make some truly awesome steel (chromium, vanadium, etc.), as in tool steel and such. So what does the country in the Rockies have to trade with them? Well it just so happens that in central Colorado is one of the only decent sources of metallurgical quality coal west of the Great Plains. The dwarves have lots of coal to use as fuel... but nothing at all to carbonize iron and make good steel. Therefore it's a given that there will either be a trade deal.... or a war.
Please understand, I'm not saying you should use Earth as your game map... but laying out where resources are (and just as important, where they are not) in many ways does more to define international relationships than anything else.
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Yep, always thought RM needed a "Trade Law" book, a good supplementary to making characters in a commerce environment as opposed to your normal get the gold dungeon crawl etc.
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So, if you want a character with a little bit more depth but still aimed at a "starter" audience, what about 2-3 background tables included in the book? I think there were already some of those in a RM Companion (I can't check at the moment). People could pick one "background item" per table or roll dice. I was thinking of something like around 15 items per table.
The said items could be something like adjectives/personality traits (impatient, courageous, noble, etc.), or linked to a childhood event/situation (abandoned by relatives, has a (NPC) twin, has a fear of something, etc).
It doesn't need to cover every situation, only give a good idea of what elements could be added to a character background.
I don't think it should be bought with DP either as my intent is to give flavour, not any bonus/malus. It looks like talents and flaws, but without the advantages/drawbacks.
It has to work with RMU, so some of this is a non-starter until that's done and delivered.
That said, I was planning on including some of that stuff in the two starting sections (In the Beginning and Learning to Crawl). Part of stat allocation SHOULD take into account how you view your character and what you want to accomplish. The whole thing would take place in a notional "typical wilderness village" type setting.
It's always good to involve as many people as possible, but if this does move forward I would caution against casting that net TOO wide. I would think a free intro product should be available soon after (or timed to come out with) the final RMU stuff, and broad collaborations are by their nature slow. I for one wouldn't want to do the magic section...it doesn't interest me as much. Character creation and GM-type stuff is more my area.
GoF, locations of ores, cropland and the like was a major part of my world. I've got maps for trade routes, ore locations, major producers of grain, and so on. But that's not stuff for a free intro product...
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GoF, locations of ores, cropland and the like was a major part of my world. I've got maps for trade routes, ore locations, major producers of grain, and so on. But that's not stuff for a free intro product...
True in one sense, not in another. The nuts and bolts of it are for GM Law or whatever label it eventually wears. But if the free intro product is aimed at both new players and new GMs, it should contain a few broad notes on how the maximum possible depth of the characters' personalities and backstories is limited by the depth of the setting in which they are being placed.
An idyllic, heavily forest high mountain environment sounds like a wonderful place to start a ranger character.... until you find out it's in the heart of the coal district, and most of the game is gone because of the people, the noise and the smoke. A ranger character starting there isn't impossible, but you can guarantee that his experience in the woods growing up was not quite the same as that of a stereotypical "ranger." Little details like that are where depth comes from, you're simply not going to achieve the depth without the details.
The new GM needs to know to have as much of his detail work thought out as he can (for the immediate adventuring area at least) before he starts generating characters if he wants those characters to be conceptually well-rounded. The new player needs to expect to hear the GM's "local details," and if he doesn't hear them, to know he should ask for them.
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For me it comes in 3 parts; region, culture and social status with another division along gender lines.
MDC
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...if the free intro product is aimed at both new players and new GMs, it should contain a few broad notes on how...
...and a reference to how the issue is addressed in greater depth in (ICE product #_____). If it's going to be a free publication, you might as well make sure you can write off the production costs as advertising.
Of course, that puts the burden on ICE to make the thing referred to useful enough to justify luring an ignorant newbie into spending money to get it, but hey, that comes with the territory in any business, no?
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... with another division along gender lines.
Or not, depending on the world and races. :)
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...if the free intro product is aimed at both new players and new GMs, it should contain a few broad notes on how...
...and a reference to how the issue is addressed in greater depth in (ICE product #_____). If it's going to be a free publication, you might as well make sure you can write off the production costs as advertising.
Of course, that puts the burden on ICE to make the thing referred to useful enough to justify luring an ignorant newbie into spending money to get it, but hey, that comes with the territory in any business, no?
Quite a bit of it also depends on length. I agree that having some notes about trade routes and the like are quite useful, but if we're working with 40 pages it might not fit. My planning take is to figure out what the absolute minimum is, get that charted out, and then have the "if there's room" list for stuff that can (and should) be added if there's more room. I'd also plan on cross-referencing the product with the RMU rules (both specific sections and the product number idea for more extended stuff). Keeping it a somewhat short PDF would also allow people to print it easily, cutting down on publishing costs on the ICE side.
Any dual-use, short, and free product is a balancing act. We'd want to keep it useful enough to get them hooked but not so detailed that they don't need to buy the full versions.
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I don't think it should be bought with DP either as my intent is to give flavour, not any bonus/malus. It looks like talents and flaws, but without the advantages/drawbacks.
It has to work with RMU, so some of this is a non-starter until that's done and delivered.
I'm not I understand what you're meaning here... From my point of view, those background elements could fit other RPG systems and you can make them generic enough to fit into SF too.
Am I mistaken or are there two products discussed in this thread?
1. A book mostly for GMs to help them learn the system;
2. A starter adventure with tips and simple rules for both beginner players and GMs.
I would rather cheer for #2 as it looks like an efficient way to learn the rules while playing compared to a set of examples.
Your thoughts?
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I'm not I understand what you're meaning here... From my point of view, those background elements could fit other RPG systems and you can make them generic enough to fit into SF too.
Am I mistaken or are there two products discussed in this thread?
1. A book mostly for GMs to help them learn the system;
2. A starter adventure with tips and simple rules for both beginner players and GMs.
I would rather cheer for #2 as it looks like an efficient way to learn the rules while playing compared to a set of examples.
Your thoughts?
To be clear, I'm mainly discussing #2. The talk has strayed from time to time into a larger GM book, but I think the main focus should be a short, free starter product (with an adventure or something similar in it) that is tooled specifically for RMU. That's why I say it has to be accurately cross-referenced. For example, if section 1 talks about character creation, you'd have "See Section X of Character Law for more detailed information." To me, it should give them enough to get started and make a couple of basic characters (Arms and Magic, likely) and then go on a simple adventure near a village. The GM section would have pointers and the like, although some of this also depends on length. If space is an issue, we need to focus on showing how RMU works for someone who's never played it, or run it, before.
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...and then go on a simple adventure near a village.
Nirbai City, on the edge of the Nirbai Forest. ::)
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...and then go on a simple adventure near a village.
Nirbai City, on the edge of the Nirbai Forest. ::)
Depends on your audience. If you're going to relative newcomers, why not? Especially if it's a short product. If it's longer, you can get into more detail and show GMs how to work that side of it using RMU as their stage. Keep in mind, if it's going to be free (and come in a print version) it needs to be short. PDF gives you more room to operate, obviously.
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...and then go on a simple adventure near a village.
Nirbai City, on the edge of the Nirbai Forest. ::)
Depends on your audience. If you're going to relative newcomers, why not?
Exactly. They're newbies, they may not be fully aware of the degree of punniness they'll likely have to put up with from a typical gaming group. If the premise of the document is "teach the newbies"... may as well warn 'em in advance.
;)
On a note related to the discussion of resources earlier... I found a new (to me anyway) site/page devoted to fantasy demographics. Like most, it is in the format of X number of people in a settlement will generate Y numbers of profession Z. And like most such listings, the number of people in listed professions nowhere near equals the total of the population it is taken from, the rest being presumably "peasant laborers." But even peasant laborers do something.
One of the reasons the whole thing with resources is important is because it defines what that "peasant laborer" does. In most cases, he'll be a small farmer and/or be attempting to raise livestock of some kind. In most settings, the individual peasant family will not have enough land to support large animals, or large numbers of small ones. A goat, a pig and a few chickens are a serious strain on the carrying capacity of their land.
But in a town in heavy forest upstream from a major city, he'll probably be a woodcutter or a boatman. In a little mining camp of 20 or 30 people, he'll almost certainly be a miner. The point is that even using the same random fantasy demographics to add in the butcher the baker and the candlestick maker, the entire character of a settlement changes according to who the peasants are. Pick the miner's pocket, you may find gold dust. Pick the boatman's pocket, you may find a frog. You're much less likely to find a frog in the miner's pocket or gold dust in the boatman's, however.
What's in their pocketses is different, what's for sale in the local store is different, what kind of food they serve at the inn is different, what kind of horse is considered especially valuable is different, the makeup and priorities of local law enforcement is different, what kind of weather makes them abandon the settlement and save themselves is different.
The culture is a reaction to the character of the peasants, much more so than the other way around. Pawns are the soul of chess.
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...
On a note related to the discussion of resources earlier... I found a new (to me anyway) site/page devoted to fantasy demographics. Like most, it is in the format of X number of people in a settlement will generate Y numbers of profession Z. And like most such listings, the number of people in listed professions nowhere near equals the total of the population it is taken from, the rest being presumably "peasant laborers." But even peasant laborers do something.
...
Link please!
By the way, in that vein, I recommend the HARN Manor supplement from Columbia Games (I do not know if it is still in print) - https://www.google.com/search?q=Harn+manor&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a (https://www.google.com/search?q=Harn+manor&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a) - (1st link blocked here at work :( ) as it also goes into goodly detail at the peasant scale.
Regards,
Old Man
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This is the fantasy demographics:
http://www.batintheattic.com/downloads/Fantasy%20Demographics%20Version%201.pdf
A couple of other things that were fun.... random alchemy ingredients:
http://www.wizardawn.com/rpg/files/alchemy_ingredients.pdf
Random results for successfully picking pockets:
http://www.wizardawn.com/rpg/files/pick_pocket.pdf
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Here are couple I have used in the past.
http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/ (http://www.rpglibrary.org/utils/meddemog/)
http://www.welshpiper.com/medieval-demographics-online/ (http://www.welshpiper.com/medieval-demographics-online/)
Both the above are based on this article: Medieval Demographics Made Easy (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm) by S. John Ross in 1993. It is still largely used for many other such generators.
I have been thinking of designing one specifically for each major locale on my world of Onaviu. Too much other stuff need to do to get around doing such.
rmfr