Author Topic: Different Level Characters in same Party  (Read 1875 times)

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Offline Tywyll

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Different Level Characters in same Party
« on: April 21, 2022, 04:40:47 AM »
Running the original xp system (or any variation on it) seems destined to create characters of different levels within the same party. Kill xp going to the one who struck the killing blow being the main culprit I would imagine.

Did this ever create any problems for groups? Or is this not as big a deal? It seems that non-aggressive classes would lag since you can get soooo much from killing a target compared to casting spells or using skills.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2022, 06:19:48 AM »
I think it would create two kinds of problems :
- the one you point out (offensive characters getting the lion's share of that part of XP distribution)
- in some cases, in some groups, a "kill steal" mentality where people try to get the killing blow regardless of what they actually did in combat. After all, it happens in video games because there is a reward for striking the killing blow, I can't see why human nature would change :p

But individual XP rewards have always raised the issue of having different character progression rates - it's practically written in the system description. I guess that, either you agree with the "individual reward" premise and you have to agree with the consequence, or you don't agree with the consequence and you have to disagree with the premise.

Online jdale

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2022, 09:11:47 AM »
I know it's been a problem in other systems, and once a character starts to fall behind then they are less able to do the things they need to do to catch up. Personally I just advance the whole party together when it's narratively appropriate, and I know I'm not the only one doing that.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2022, 09:14:34 AM »
I am not a fan of the old XP system, and the level disparity is just one aspect of why. At higher levels (15th+) being a level apart is not a big deal, but at the lower levels (which is where it seems EVERYONE plays at) it makes a huge difference. Beyond that, it encourages meeting every challenge with violence as the biggest way to gain XP is through crits and kill hits. Every system of RP awarding I have seen people use is like "+100 for good RPing" which is pitiful and does NOT encourage RPing.

As far as I am concerned, if you are not using a threshold or goal driven* leveling system, then any way you "win" against the opponent (beat in fight, successfully avoid/get around, etc...) should earn the same XP - though I also argue that particularly creative methods should garner more XP.

*These allow you to better control the leveling, so you can make sure the PCs are the levels you want at specific points in the campaign. If you are worried about those XP awards you would normally give out for certain things, you can turn those into things like Fate Point awards or (if you don't do FP) special item/monetary/knowledge awards - basically "in-game" awards.
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Offline OLF, i.e. Olf Le Fol

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2022, 05:37:32 PM »
I am not a fan of the old XP system, and the level disparity is just one aspect of why. At higher levels (15th+) being a level apart is not a big deal, but at the lower levels (which is where it seems EVERYONE plays at) it makes a huge difference. Beyond that, it encourages meeting every challenge with violence as the biggest way to gain XP is through crits and kill hits. Every system of RP awarding I have seen people use is like "+100 for good RPing" which is pitiful and does NOT encourage RPing.
*shrugs*
Didn't we have such a discussion about how each GM rewards XPs already, several times even? I personally use a collaborative way (adapted from an existing RPG so it's not as if such a system doesn't exist in any actual RPG…) that, IMO, encourages toward RPing.
In this system, each player is given a certain number of tokens whilst the GM keeps half of the sum of all players' tokens. For instance, in my game, I have five players. Each player is given five tokens whilst I keep fifteen (roughly half of five by five = twenty-five).

During a game, every time a character (say, PC-A) is performing an action that another player (say, PL-B) or the GM considers deserving to be rewarded, its player (thus PL-A) is given a token from said player (here, PL-B) or the GM.
Every number of sessions (in my group, it's five) determined in advance, every player counts how many tokens he got. Every character then gets a number of XPs proportional to how many tokens he got, from a pool of total XPs, to which a GM may want to add some base XPs. It's important that the players know when the XP calculation takes part, because for the system to fully work, all the tokens should have been given when this happens.

For instance, in my case, the XPs pool is 50,000 and I give 5,000 base XPs. As there are a total of forty tokens (five by five from the players, and fifteen from the GM), each token represents 1/40th of 50,000 thus 1250 XPs. Thus, at XP calculation time, a character earns its number of tokens times 1250, added to the 5,000 base XPs.

From my experience, not only does such a system push players to try and perform interesting RPing and give entertaining experience to the other players, it also reminds them the GM (or the system, for that matter) is not the only one they should court, but the whole table.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2022, 09:07:08 PM »
For instance, in my case, the XPs pool is 50,000 and I give 5,000 base XPs. As there are a total of forty tokens (five by five from the players, and fifteen from the GM), each token represents 1/40th of 50,000 thus 1250 XPs. Thus, at XP calculation time, a character earns its number of tokens times 1250, added to the 5,000 base XPs.
And this would NOT be one of the systems of XP bonus for RPing I was referring to; those tend to do the bonus XP in the 100-200 range, very rarely up to 500. I have never sat down to a game where the bonus's were higher - if they gave out RPing bonuses at all.
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Offline MisterK

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2022, 11:39:42 PM »
I think the main issue is seeing XPs as reward :)

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2022, 12:12:28 AM »
We never had an issue with level differences, but I think the biggest gap was maybe a two level difference.
It's more common with higher level characters and the higher level you get the less that difference really makes anyhow.

However, I haven't played with a GM that doesn't just give group or mission based exp anymore and I, personally, would just tell the group when to level and do away completely with exp.
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Offline Frabby

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2022, 01:47:15 PM »
Honest question: Is *anyone* actually using the computer game-esque XP system where dice rolling in general and killing blows in particular are what’s rewarded with XP?

Me, I’ve just given out XP nilly-willy as a GM for decades and hardly ever was there even a discussion among players about who got what. XP are awarded not on grounds of what a character can do (eg. skills, levels & rolls) but more for how well a player, well, roleplays them. That’s the great equalizer even with lvl1 characters in an otherwise lvl7+ party.

Roleplaying is inherently non-competitive so "scoring" via XP isn’t a thing for us.
We also give few XP which helps keeping the discrepancy small. No character beyond lvl14 in 30 years of playing, most players have a bunch of senior characters to choose from all at levels between 7 and 10.

Offline MisterK

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2022, 12:16:05 AM »
Honest question: Is *anyone* actually using the computer game-esque XP system where dice rolling in general and killing blows in particular are what’s rewarded with XP?
Not me.

I don't bother with XPs at all - I just tell the players to add a level once in a while. Sometimes, I don't even do that (I experienced with giving out skill ranks instead of levels). In my last campaign, I warned my players that their characters would start at level 20 and would stay that way for the entirety of the campaign (it was also in that campaign that I told them to ignore development costs and just tell me what their characters were good at and how good they were) and we played for five years.

Basically, eveything works - just not with everyone.

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2022, 04:17:57 AM »
Honest question: Is *anyone* actually using the computer game-esque XP system where dice rolling in general and killing blows in particular are what’s rewarded with XP?

Me, I’ve just given out XP nilly-willy as a GM for decades and hardly ever was there even a discussion among players about who got what. XP are awarded not on grounds of what a character can do (eg. skills, levels & rolls) but more for how well a player, well, roleplays them. That’s the great equalizer even with lvl1 characters in an otherwise lvl7+ party.

Roleplaying is inherently non-competitive so "scoring" via XP isn’t a thing for us.
We also give few XP which helps keeping the discrepancy small. No character beyond lvl14 in 30 years of playing, most players have a bunch of senior characters to choose from all at levels between 7 and 10.

So I am not currently actually running a RM game, but if I did, I would probably use the (modified) system out of the books. Why? Because of player agency. Using Gold for Xp or Xp related to activities drives players in specific directions. Roleplay awards are too ephemeral and tend towards meaninglessness over time. Unless someone can somehow RP so well they end up a level or two above everyone else, it is really just a shorthand for GM fiat and can even be punitive to players who are more shy or reserved. And if you are rewarding them 'rp xp' for playing silent loaners...does it even mean anything anymore? The issue I have with 'milestone' leveling or 'just having everyone level at the same time' is that it feels, to me at least, like what I do as a player doesn't matter. I played in a game where the GM did that and no matter how intensely I played my character or what goals I achieved, I was leveling at the same rate as the player who sat back and barely interacted unless prodded to do so by the GM.

Having dived back into OSR style games for several years, and played modern takes on it like Forbidden Lands and Against the Darkmaster, I far prefer systems where xp is rewarded in ways that known and achievable by the players. You want to level up? Go to the dungeon and get some gold. Your party is down to half resources...do you risk just *one more* room in hopes of more reward or do you try and escape the dungeon before random encounters finish you off? Those moments of player choice create intense tension both for the characters and the players as they are forced to come to grips with the choice and the consequences they face. Forbidden Lands was great for its xp system, with a list of options that if you did X you got rewarded...meaning it often drove the players to stop faffing and start exploring/hunting monsters/playing up their dark secrets because dammit, they wanted that xp!

The benefit of the old RM system is that it rewards specific actions in specific ways, that the players can know and capitalize on. The downside of course is that it is painfully baroque and a record-keeping nightmare. That said, I do feel some nostalgia for it. If I started running a RM game, I would definitely change some stuff (like all the kill xp going to the last person to hit the damn thing) and figure out a way to simplify skill roll xp because tracking every single skill you have so you know if this is the first Hard maneuver or the second would be a logistical nightmare. I'd probably just double or triple the amounts given and drop the 'first time' mods.

Offline Vladimir

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2022, 06:21:59 AM »
  The campaign in which I am currently playing is nearing the decade point. We've lost and gained a half dozen players and have kicked out a few who just didn't know how to RP with a party.
  The GM had a rule that if a character died or a player wanted to try a new character, they would enter the game at half experience. At lower levels it isn't such a big deal but I have the last original character playing in the game as I'm comfortable with it.
  So having 3rd through 7th level players in a party isn't anything new and we are all closing in on levels 9 or 10 at roughly the same time. The GM uses out of print scenario books from half a dozen games from the 1980s and some were simple while others were near impossible for the party. Experience would be awarded mostly on variations of pass/fail with extra points given for ideas and actions that contribute to the mission.
  The only real issue has been the GM's health. He recently had a stroke and hasn't been able to work for months, so sometimes he isn't feeling up for a game. I've lost too many gaming friends who didn't take care of their health, so I'm okay with not having regularly scheduled sessions.
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Online jdale

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2022, 11:23:12 AM »
Any XP system is going to give incentives for certain behaviors and disincentives for others. If the system gives XP for success in combat, you have a strong motivator to deal with problems via combat. If it gives XP for maneuvers, you are motivated to try difficult things. If it gives XP for achieving goals, you have a motivator to come up with personal and group goals and take action to achieve them. As a GM, I prefer the latter, because it keeps the story moving and it makes it easier for me if the players need to establish goals for themselves. When I ran GURPS, which awards character points on a much smaller scale, I simplified it down to 1 point for having a goal, 1 point for progress towards a goal, and 1 point for roleplaying. Those were the things I wanted incentives on. Combat and maneuvers definitely happened, but it was in service to a goal, or to roleplaying.

Personally, I'm just fine with everyone leveling together narratively. I'm not worrying about numbers but the party won't level until they have accomplished something, and it means people focus on character actions for their own sake and not for an external reward. But some people like more structure and a way to measure progress. I'm not opposed to that, but think about how to align the incentives you create with the kind of game you want to be running.
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Offline Jengada

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2022, 04:49:14 PM »
I've homebrewed the XP rules a lot, and yet at this point I just gauge leveling up based on story arc and milestones. The earlier mentions about Kill Points seem to have ignored the part of the rule that says KP are reduced based on crit points received on that kill. That really distributed a lot of the experience across the party.
I also used the "idea points" category to help low-level mages. Sleep the orc? You get idea points for the fighter's coup de grace kill.
The one biggest home-brew I did was create "avoidance points." If the party had the potential to fight someone/thing, they got 1.1*(Kill points + Bonus points + Hit points) split equally. If someone was particularly key in working out the avoidance (like negotiating a truce) they would get a bigger share. And the avoidance had to be of an immediate conflict, they didn't get xp for peacefully walking down the street.
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Offline Majyk

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2022, 07:00:45 PM »
Always let folks go up(and down, if dying and bringing in a new PC) for XP.
Not everyone has a great idea for bypassing a session’s obstacles, or can successfully navigate one using skills only they’re trained in.

XP system rewards are fun and is what keeps players interested in “grinding” in your games.

I’m happiest when receiving more/less XP due to game circumstances vs the holding hands method of everyone levelling.

…this coming from a lefty tree-hugging hippy, and not a righty hard@$$.  ;)

Offline RandalThor

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2022, 03:57:06 PM »
Honest question: Is *anyone* actually using the computer game-esque XP system where dice rolling in general and killing blows in particular are what’s rewarded with XP?
The two RM groups I am in are still both using it.
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Offline EltonJ

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2022, 03:09:42 PM »
Always let folks go up(and down, if dying and bringing in a new PC) for XP.
Not everyone has a great idea for bypassing a session’s obstacles, or can successfully navigate one using skills only they’re trained in.

XP system rewards are fun and is what keeps players interested in “grinding” in your games.

I’m happiest when receiving more/less XP due to game circumstances vs the holding hands method of everyone levelling.

…this coming from a lefty tree-hugging hippy, and not a righty hard@$$.  ;)

I've been on the fence, trying to decide if I use the XP system or not.

Offline Tywyll

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2022, 06:48:27 AM »
XP system rewards are fun and is what keeps players interested in “grinding” in your games.

I’m happiest when receiving more/less XP due to game circumstances vs the holding hands method of everyone levelling.


This, right here! Totally with you!

Offline Cory Magel

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2022, 11:27:40 PM »
I’m happiest when receiving more/less XP due to game circumstances vs the holding hands method of everyone levelling.
That's an odd way to look at it. The reason we moved away from individual experience was to do things like: Save time due to not having to track it all and players no longer wanting to level at the individual times.  Reward the party for cooperation (i.e. one person does something they wouldn't normally get exp for but actually results in accomplishing the goal).  Just plain old let the GM drive the pace of the campaign... maybe you'll level each session, maybe you won't level for multiple sessions, and maybe the GM will have you level up multiple levels at once as a way to quickly progress to a much later time in the characters/groups story.
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Offline Majyk

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Re: Different Level Characters in same Party
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2022, 01:35:34 AM »
That seems to be the majority go-to even in other settings/rule-sets, too, showing it’s a strength for GM time-saving, for sure, as you confirm! 
Totally nothing wrong with it if your group doesn’t mind it.
In my experience one loses the fire of players that do, however.  They’re polite and won’t say anything in a round-table, group chat but get them alone and I find half to three-quarters usually do.  Maybe it’s the old school mentality of 70s/80s kids which is my range of player?

As mentioned, I am a total Socialist when it comes to the Real World(tm) helping of everyone to cross the finish line at the same time, but as a preference in any gaming I do - whether GM or Player - I am on board with individual XP tallying.

I liken it to fully rewarding the perpetually missing player whom disrupts the flow of games with their absences, despite being beloved by the group socially.
I got around it by rewarding them with half the lowest Total XP of the group at session end, so those that do show up feel they received valuable XP for their contributions.
Then again, I add a paltry 100-200XP for showing up early to games, as incentive for being ready to go at game start.

No right or wrong in this debate of clocking Table Laws, though. :)
I’m happiest when receiving more/less XP due to game circumstances vs the holding hands method of everyone levelling.
That's an odd way to look at it.