Author Topic: What level PCs for "Giants"?  (Read 7664 times)

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Offline Marc R

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What level PCs for "Giants"?
« on: December 31, 2007, 04:05:15 PM »
Reading this thread over in HARP:

One cautionary note...

The two gaming systems are far different in their approach to gaming - especially in terms of combat.  What could be a fairly easy battle in d20 can end up killing multiple PCs in HARP if the players try to fight it out toe to toe with some creatures.  While you can use the d20 adventures in HARP, you may want to review the adventuefore and make it fit better to a HARP style of play first before running it.

Run some basic test modules first and you'll probably see what I mean.

I was reminded of a moment when I contemplated running an old fave g1-3 "Against the Giants" in rolemaster. . . .that was if I'm not mistaken an 8-12th level AD&D adventure. . .using the x1.5 rule you'd get 12-18th level RM characters.

I think all the monsters except the Drow in the fire giants are right out of CT, but a direct "Out of CT" use of those modules would I think be far scarier than five or six 12-18th level characters could possibly hack. . . .

I think those modules would be a meat grinder on any party under 25th. . . the whole way combat and healing vary between AD&D and RM would make it almost impossible to do without demigods or an army.

Might make for a lot of fun though. . .any thoughts?
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2007, 04:14:20 PM »
A party of 4-6 PC's that are 12th-18th level would do fine IF they have access to easy healing that is quick and complete (powerful herbs, healer, lay healer, etc).

Many giants are LA, so holy or slaying weapons will drop them in one blow.  SL foes are hard to drop even with slaying and holy arms, so i would sprinkle them in lightly.  Example, in an encounter with 16 giants, I would go with one SL Mountain Giant, one Spell using Ginat either SL or LA, and the rest LA or Crit II.  The slaying weapons can be part of the treasure haul when the PC's defeat the first holding/tribe of giants, but stash them in a vault and trap them.

Giants have low rock throwing OB's, but the crush attack table is very powerful, so if the gianst fight as a unit with melee amd missile support, it will be tough going.  Roleplay out the giants taunts and screams and "THIS PUNY ONE IS MINE" sort of behavior, and the PC's will fare better.  Still, when a PC gets to kockky, lob 2 or 3 rocks at him as he melees another giant.  He will learn respect real fast.

lynn
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Offline Old Man

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2007, 04:25:46 PM »

Giants can be pretty nasty if you use damage multiples for them (already in C&T iirc) and parry reductions for the PCs (see RMC IV or VII iirc for examples - 1/2 parry vs Large and 1/4 vs SuperLarge creatures). Rocks, area of effect attacks ("Squash little Knight with table!") and such like that will make the PCs respect them as well.

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Offline Marc R

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2007, 05:00:55 PM »
If anything I'm fearful that straight core RM2/RMC without any fiddle faddle might be too nasty for a party of say 5 18th level RM characters.

Module is in a box somewhere, but if I recall, the hill giants was a lot more mild than the other 2, but there's a great hall encounter with something like 40 hill giants and a small army of hangers on having a feast.

IIRC there are are encounters in the other 2 with dozens of fire or frost giants (with CT spell lists, egad!)

And again, IIRC an encounter with 2 cold drakes and one with a single fire drake that would be much nastier in the RMC version.

If anything, even if I decided to do it as a straight goof, I'm wondering if I'd need to up the party level from 12-18.

I guess a lot would matter as to how I equiped them with magic items. .. .I can think of a few items out of CT that would make an 12-18th level character at least 2-3x nastier.
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Offline Grinnen Baeritt

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2008, 04:00:26 AM »
I'd actually stay with the pre-scribed (x1.5) characters levels.

As has been mentioned, the two systems are different. But so should be the expectations of the players as regards to the odds of survival... ;)

That "Great Hall" encounter? Well, the characters REALLY shouldn't be going toe-to-toe in this room anyway, even the scenario notes say this.

This scenario more than any other in the "Giant" series is more about stealth.. 

Offline pastaav

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2008, 04:48:06 AM »
I had more than a few giants in my latest campaingn...they are dangerous...yet I would say that profession  is more important than level.

Characters with spells that allow them to go tag-and-then-be-gone will have a great advantage. Likewise groups with good offence will overpower single giants. The real danger with giants are their great range...a bunch of giants chasing you over the flat side of a mountain is execution of the players.
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Offline munchy

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2008, 05:35:43 AM »
We once had a giant campaign with RM characters which did not even try to beat the giants with brute force but found another solution which I think it should be done with giants. Fighting them should be extremely difficult taking size and all in consideration.
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Offline Balhirath

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2008, 06:22:00 AM »
A party of 4-6 PC's that are 12th-18th level would do fine IF they have access to easy healing that is quick and complete (powerful herbs, healer, lay healer, etc).

I agree with this, but the most importent thing about the party is how intelligent the players are.
With the RM combat system tactics become vital and a party that can ambush or out maneuver the opponent and repeatedly put themselves in a situation where they out number the opponent, will have a good chance of defeating allmost anything.
Especially if the magic users in the party use their spells the right way. :)
A simple spell combination as darkness (50') and Dark Vision can really help a lot and there are many other that are equally good.
   
I'm new here, but have played RM2 on and off for 20 years. :)

Offline munchy

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2008, 07:21:04 AM »
Our adventure in Haestra took place during a longer campaign and the solution basically was to send the giants sleeping or something with a ritual and the aid of that river Nymph living down there.

However, mind influenceing spells especially those which don't care about the target level are extremely helpful here and I think probably an easier way to deal with giants than fighting them directly head on. Seduce them, lure them into a trap or into doing something stupid and/or without paying close attention to imminent danger, i.e. that they fall of the cliff or something like that. (How I hate that last bit of the sentence and try to get it out of the writing style of my students. Well, none of them here, so I should be fine. ;))
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Offline yammahoper

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2008, 11:26:45 AM »
The social fabric and politics of giant communities will be all important to PC survival.

My giant communities are militant and divided.  The strong lord over the weaker and there is anomosity between giant clans and types.  Fire Giants tend to think Stone and Hill Giants are savage beast of burden who deserve to be second class citizens, and will not be biased if the party kills 20 of them (though a rare smart Fire Giant leader may see the importance of the lessers as fodder and military strength, which the PC's can counter by showing those lesser giants have already served their purpose, shielding their betters from the brunt of the PC offensive).  However Fire Giants despise Ice Giants yet respect Cloud, Water and Storm Giants for their power, but will openly plot against Mountain Giants who challenge their domain (in my game, Fire Giants are the most numerous of the Giant clans and tend to form and lead giant communities, and human contact via elemental and other schools of magic are fairly common).

So the mindset of the giants and their respect for strength and utter disdain for the small and weak creates a unique diplomatic requirement, to be aggressive and strong mixed with condenscension and disdain yet respectful and proper, in giant fashion.  I have met many players who revel in this role and are very good at it, as players enjoy being respected themselves, and enjoy operating from a position of strength.  It is my belief that ALL parties of PC's are really miscreants and Lawful Evil at heart, chaotic evil when they KNOW they can get away with it.  They cannot be that here.

RM is crit-master, so the fact there will be fights against quality foes means there will be injuries.  Drawing from the wonderful simplicity of ADnD, I would hand out 10-15 doses of "heals any wound" potion.  They go in with confidence, but not unlimited healing power, and if things get to easy, I can imperil the potion.  This does not change the fact that the sooner the players turn this into a talking encounter, the better.

There are ways a GM can indicate the villians willingness to talk, an idea that is usually ruled out by players as they waste anything that moves.  Giant families with nursing women and children need to run in fear of the invading monsters as they cry out, "EKK ITS A HUMAN MOMMA AND THEY ARE SO UGLY!!!"

Have young unskilled giants fight to protect the families and die doing so, in a rage and unwilling to listen as they try to protect their families the only way they know how: crush the problem.  Let a PC or even Firegiant fireball toss broken giant child bodies around, one can create sympathy, the other display the absolute rule of the Firegiants and that they are answerable to no one.

A dead giant guard/adult lays at the PC's feet, and the giants being who they are, look down from up high and only hurl a threat or two at the PC's, commenting on how that guard was the weakest of him and thus stuck with the unpleasent duty of having lowly position of talking with violent fiends, and if they wanna real fight, well keep on coming.  Then the giant walks away, alerting the community but walking away in very real disdain. 

The more you make those giants real with thinking minds, the quicker the players will see they can parlay.  After the PC's slaughter a few giants, you can even have two new guards talking to each other, wondering if they should parlay with these monsters who have already killed several of them and seen strong, while his companion shushes such talk as being above their simple station and besides, thats what dem lazy upper level ninnies do is talk.  Rock Clan Giants CRUSH their foes...to say it a third time for players who need that sorta hand holding.

If not, throw 100 giants at them so they see they cannot win this via battle.  Remember, Lawful Evil at their best, players always understand violence.

lynn

 
« Last Edit: January 01, 2008, 11:41:29 AM by yammahoper »
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Offline jeff

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2008, 02:13:17 PM »
Lynn

You're the man thats all I have to say.
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2008, 11:18:08 AM »
It is my belief that ALL parties of PC's are really miscreants and Lawful Evil at heart, chaotic evil when they KNOW they can get away with it. 

Chaotic neutral when they can't but Lawful Good on Sundays - or when they need temple healing.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2008, 12:16:05 PM »
heh, or even then. "10 gold pieces for healing? I pull out my sword and kill the priest for daring to even ask!"

I actually pulled this module out of storage, a couple of monsters in there I may actually have to convert if I attempted this.

heheh, on further looking it over, I think tossing dragon and hydra encounters into the middle of nasty drawn out fights may be overkill. . . .and that Cloud Giant ambassador. . .they'd be well advised to avoid actually causing him to start fighting.

On the flip side, I'd forgotten the haul to be had. . .talk about a magic item superstore.
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2008, 02:04:04 PM »
                                  First of all: HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!


That "Great Hall" encounter? Well, the characters REALLY shouldn't be going toe-to-toe in this room anyway, even the scenario notes say this.

This scenario more than any other in the "Giant" series is more about stealth.. 

Actually, the few times I have been thru this module and the time I ran it, I discovered that the best way to defeat the Hill Giants (in D&D) is to attack them in the great hall using many area affect spells. Everytime we tried to sneak around, we encountered stuff and because that game doesn't have fast kills at that level the alarm was sounded everytime! Then we have to fight the more organized hill giant defenders and their helpers. Which killed us everytime.

As for the level. Not assuming they are going to have a bunch of "giant-slaying" weapons on hand (it has been a while and I do not remember if the modules handed a bunch of them out, but I don't think so) then I would go with from 20th level PCs (if they have around 6 or more PCs), 25th of they are only 4 or so, and 30th or even higher if only 2 or 3 PCs. Of course I would not think to run those modules with very few PCs - if I only had 2 or 3 players I would make them run 2 PCs each I think. A group of PCs taht have powerful magic items, especially if they allow them to do a lot of area affect damaging spells, should be a bit lower in level.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2008, 02:09:56 PM »
I recall a GM once pointing out the AOE of a fireball. . .then the scale of the great hall. . .it'd take like 18 fireballs to barely cover that room.

My recollection of the last time I ran it involved a lot of sneaking around, a lot of use of the thief's backstab damage multiplier, and the fighter becoming progressively more frustrated and angry about all the sneaking around.

Though, it does remind me of another legendary fumble, I'll post it over there.
http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=4857.msg75602#msg75602

I did notice that the tournament party provided is nine characters. . . I avoid large party play, especially at this power level, like it's got plague. . .especially in RM. . .9 PCs vs 20 or more opponants sounds like hour long combat rounds.

But if you up the ante to 9 Player characters. . . .level 12-18 becomes a bit more realistic sounding.

RM has a lot more specialization than AD&D, you can round out a lot of corners with 9 PCs.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2008, 02:32:34 PM by LordMiller »
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Offline RandalThor

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2008, 02:26:56 PM »
I wouldn't expect the mage(s) to cover the entire room, but what they usually did was kill the little stuff and damage the bigger stuff so that it didn't take 5-8 rounds to kill a single giant. Plus, you utilize the entryways as choke points so that only one could come at you a time. Again, this is a D&D tactic, though some elements are useful no matter the system.
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2008, 03:34:56 PM »
I always thought provided characters in modules were pretty weak.

However this is one series of modules I think you would need to up-level characters a little more as you now have magic using giants.   A friend did convert this to RM (and Bloodstone Pass) and things got really bloody really fast.  But still, it and the Slaver series does hold a soft spot in my heart.
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Offline Marc R

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2008, 03:37:35 PM »
Perfect, someone has gone this route before. How did it work out? (Yeah, A1-4 was another nice set.)
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Offline mocking bird

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2008, 03:52:29 PM »
Will have to get back to you on that.  Hopefully playing on Saturday and will ask the GM.  Actually he converted a lot of AD&D stuff to RM2.  The group involved, before me, however is rather legendary and the cause of several house rules along with banned book option rules.  I am sure everybody had a party like that.
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it or who has said it, not even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.    Buddha

Offline markc

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Re: What level PCs for "Giants"?
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2008, 04:44:42 PM »
 IMO 9 RM characters of 15-20 level should not have a problem if they act tacticly. A big part of this is to know your enemy and what they can and cannot do. They should have lots of healing; spells, potions, wands, rods, mud etc. As well as lots of AOE damage items and other things to make the adventure easyier. Can you say bags of holding to hall all the loot? And portable holes to put the gaint sized items in so you can melt them down or take them back to study.
 I have run it as a tournament style adventure where the last one standing wins and it was a lot of fun. My first D&D experience was also playing in G1 and really opened my eyes to waht could happen.
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