Topic: Shield Skill

[vroomfogle]

I've always wanted to there to be a shield skill, but didn't want it to be a required skill either.    So based upon the idea of the tumbling evasion skill, how about this?

Anyone can use a shield using the static DB bonuses given in the book

A Shield skill (1 Shield skill can be used with any type of shield) can be used to make a dedicated Shield Block instead of attacking (e.g. Shield Block is 60% activity).   Use the Medium column on the MM table and apply the result to the DB.     Different size shields can either use a different column (e.g. Wall Shield is an Easy maneuver) or give a bonus to the roll (the way the tables are designed these are nearly equivalent).

I'm not sure about the specifics.   If one uses the Tumbling Evasion or Adrenal Evasion skill then you'd want to the Shield skill to be easier to use as it requires an object.

Another possibility is to be able to use the Shield skill while attacking (e.g. a 10% or 20% manuever), but use the Absurd column.     This would give someone skilled in Shield to get additional benefit out of the Shield, though while sacrificing some offense.    Though it would also increase the chance of a fumble/failure as well, so may not be used in all cases.

Thoughts?

[Ecthelion]

You've started a similar thread Shield Training some months ago. Doesn't it make sense to continue in that thread?

[vroomfogle]

ha, I forgot all about that.    Regardless that was in the Revision discussions which are Read Only now.     But I'll have to read through that thread to remind myself what I wrote and everyone else's ideas!

[munchy]

Excellent, I'm not the only one that is happening to. I've got quite a few threads started with "I know I've asked this before but I can't find the thread anymore"  Mostly I've got the excuse that those threads are to be found in the old forums.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

Idea for a shield use skill --

Without skill, character gets 1/2 normal shield bonus; full shield if doing nothing more than defending himself.

With skill, character gets 1/2 shield bonus to DB, and may attack with shield bash. If fully defensive (like sai), gets full shield bonus, +1 per rank in shield skill. This is called a "block". Character may not "parry" with shield (too large and bulky and mis-shaped for such).


Just a suggestion....

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

I'd say it depends on the shield size and enarmes.

Basically a shield can be used for :
   
   - Protecting a part of the body from being hit (depending on its size)
   - Blocking arrows
   - hiding the blade, thus allowing to strike from an unpredicted angle
   - trapping an enemy's blade
   - punch, bash, slam...
   - parry, if the shield is light enough (target shield can do this, for example)

I decided that a player willing to use a shield to its full potential has to learn two weapon combat, shield bash + a weapon, feint and disarm AND a weapon style. It took 10 to 15 years to be completely trained into the use of this combination of weapons, did it not ?

[gomi]

What about shield pushes, and hooks to move your opponent's shield out of place and reduce their DB?

[Arioch]

I don't understand what you mean with shield pushes... are you talking of using the shield to attack? If yes, then somewhere is stated that you can develop a "Shield Bash" attack as a 1-h concussion weapon (and attacking on the small bash table).
And for removing your opponent shield you can use the disarm skill (against his "shield bash" OB, plus the shield DB bonus).

[Marc R]

The other would seem to be a form of disarm (actually a disshield)

[jeff]

I can't take credit for this but I have been using it and it seems to work.
15.   Shield Use
Category:   Combat Maneuvers
Optional Stats Used: Ag/Qu/St
A new Combat Maneuver skill is introduced: Shield Use. This skill can never be Occupational. It allows a character to perform special shielding maneuvers, such as providing extra cover to an ally, or turtling oneself for extra cover.
In addition, it increases the character?s DB derived from shields. For each rank the character has in Shield Use, the DB they receive from using a shield is increased by 1. This is an ?active? combat ability, meaning that it does not apply if the character is unconscious, or unaware of the attack, and it only applies if they are using a shield. This bonus is also never rolled for and should be considered constant.    The starting protection levels are as follows. The following chart is the max levels once maxed out.

Shield   Melee   Missile   Directed spells
Wall    15   20   15
Full   12   12   10
Normal   10   10   8
Target   10   5   2
Buckler   5   5   2


Shield   Melee   Missile   Directed spells
Wall    40   50   40
Full   35   35   30
Normal   30   30   25
Target   30   20   15
Buckler   20   20   15






Also note that a new shield type has been introduced. The buckler provides a +10 bonus to DB against melee attacks, and a +5 bonus against missile attacks, and +5 against Directed Spells.
Specialties:
? Any specific type of shield.
Example Difficulties:
Routine: Turtle with a wall shield, providing full ?hard? cover against missile attacks from the front and above.
Easy: Use a wall shield to provide half ?hard? cover or a full shield to provide partial ?hard? cover to an ally who uses 50% of his or her own activity to stay behind the shield.
Light: Using a buckler to successfully defend yourself while also wielding two weapons (i.e., gaining the buckler?s +10 DB against melee attacks while still fighting with two weapons).
Medium: Turtle with a full shield, providing full ?hard? cover against missile attacks from the front.
Hard: Use a full or wall shield to provide partial ?hard? cover to an ally without hindering their activities; or use a wall shield to provide half ?hard? cover to an ally as long as the ally uses 25% of their activity to keep behind the shield.
Very Hard: Use a wall shield to provide half ?hard? cover to an ally without hindering their activities.
Extremely Hard: Use a full shield to provide half ?hard? cover to an ally without hindering their activities.
Sheer Folly: Use a wall shield to provide full ?hard? cover to an ally without hindering their activities.
Absurd: Use a full shield to provide full ?hard? cover to an ally without hindering their activities.




Cover   Melee   Missile   Basic   Directed   Area
Full soft    Na   Na   20   Na   Na
Half soft   20   40   10   20   20
Partial soft   10   20   0   20   20
Full hard   Na   Na   20   Na   60
Half hard   30   60   10   30   30
Partial hard   15   30   0   30   30

[gomi]

I don't understand what you mean with shield pushes... are you talking of using the shield to attack?

And for removing your opponent shield you can use the disarm skill (against his "shield bash" OB, plus the shield DB bonus).

The shield is a defensive tool to protect the fighter, or character.  And what I was talking about above was not making a separate attack, as per shield bash, but neutralizing your opponent's DB by reducing the effectiveness of their shield.
I've see shield pushers used effectively in SCA combat to momentarily throw the defender off guard to score a hit.

I suppose I see shield use as a skill, not a passive bonus like it is currently in RM, and I'm just thinking about it's uses.

[Dark Schneider]

- Defense: use 'styles', we use the styles as spell lists, rank based skills that 'unblock' options to combat, you only need to define your proportion ranks/style points (1 rank = 2 or 3 style points, for example). So, if I remember well, use shield trainning (10 points) for 1 weapon (5 points) are 15 style points (about 5-8 ranks in a style skill). For related-weapons (this is the most generally used, for example style for swords), you need 5 points more.

I see this 'style' option interesting, so your MA users don't beging directly with degree 3 or 4 attack, and they need to develop, so probably MA users can begin to use degree 3 with level 6-7 and degree 4 with more. This system is not based in all-from-beginning style option, if you see MAC, there are styles really useless (nobody will choose them) and others are too powerfull (level 1 character can do that?).

So, now ALL are 'custom styles' (you buy options with ranks), and styles presented in MAC are 'guides', so if you want to be included in 'karate school', you basically need to develop degrees for MA strikes and a crush weapon kata (as nunchaku).
Additionally, a GM can require a master to buy some options (for example MA degree 4).

For parring, if you have a shield you can use any melee DB for that, you really don't need a weapon in your hand to parry with a shield.

---------------------------------------

- Attack: develop it as crush weapon and develop too 2 weapon combo, so you can use the shield for defense or attack as you want. I think it used the 'bash' table attack.

[Arioch]

The shield is a defensive tool to protect the fighter, or character.  And what I was talking about above was not making a separate attack, as per shield bash, but neutralizing your opponent's DB by reducing the effectiveness of their shield.
I've see shield pushers used effectively in SCA combat to momentarily throw the defender off guard to score a hit.

You could use the Feint (Shield) skill to simulate this and reduce your opponent's DB.

[Marc R]

I'm still contemplating if the disarm would be legal.

You can knock the sword out of someone's hand, can you dis-shield them with the skill? (It technically can be considered a 1 HD crushing weapon you use to block for it's shield bonus.)

It seems like you could attempt a disarm on the shield. . .I'd probably slap a big fat penalty on it.

The push back feels like the old "Melee Scuffle" attack from the Arms Companion, that allowed you, in close quarters, to attempt to inflict additional unbalance crits on your foe.

The trick out of position thing does sound like feint.

[Fidoric]

Regarding the 'disshield' maneuver, I would definitively separate shields in two kinds. Those who are only hand held (small shields like buckler, small and maybe normal shield) and those in which your forearm is stuck, which is the case with heavier shields such as full or wall shield. The former may be knocked away from your grip whereas the latter could not, or it would be a difficult proposition at best. The risk for the bearer of a heavy shield is having someone grasp it and twist it until the bearer's elbow snap... That's why modern shields, like those used by SWAT teams, rotate around an axle. That's quite beyond the design of medieval shields though.

[Marc R]

That makes sense, you could "Disarm" a targe or small shield, but not anything with an arm loop. (or if with an arm loop, at a big penalty perhaps).

[Dark Schneider]

I think the most effective attack for removing shield is a grab. If target is stunned and you grab the shield (you roll in the table but crit is applied to shield), and if grabbed the target has 2 options:

1) drop the shield.
2) do not drop the shield: in this case you could apply a immobilised modifer (positional) for next attack, as target can't use its QU (as with other positional modifiers).

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

From what i've learned in fencing, concentrarting on one's shield is a bit pointless. If you are able to Disarm a shield, you'd rather disarm the damn sword your opponent is trying to gut you with.

It may look cool in Troy or Kingdom of heaven, but it does not make a lot of sense in sparing. (as far as real combat is concerned, experimented warriors did cut the lower left leg under the shield rather than trying to hit the guy anywhere else).

[Marc R]

Depends on weapon style, you might directly slam an opponant's shield with a battleaxe or battlehammer and break the arm or shield. . .

some weapons, or some warriors, are not big on finesse. Modern fencing is all about finesse with relatively light weapons.

Also, in battlefield conditions, first rank hitting a shield wall and grabbing it to pull it down, so the second rank can attack with spears, sounds tactically about like first rank dropping onto barbed wire so 2nd rank can advance at a run over you. . . .

In one on one fencing, rarely can I think of anything more than a small shield being used. The larger shields were mostly meant for interlocking formation defense. . .I suspect that if played realisticly, you should really get signifigant OB/maneuver/perception penalty for a large or wall shield, then a big DB bonus if used in a "Shield Wall" or "Turtle" maneuver. . .they'd likely be more a hinderance than a help in 1 on 1 combat vs anything other than a slow opponant.

[Fenrhyl Wulfson]

I should have been more precise, it's ancient fencing : axes, round shields, two handers and the like.

But you are right, one could simply hit the shield as hard as he could and hope to break the arm of its bearer. I never thought about this before. I figure that so far i've just been trying to hit my sparing mates, not to kill or maim them 

However, ancient fencing is also requiring a lot of finesse, but still a lot less than renaissance fencing or modern one (which is a sport and not a combat practice).