Topic: Rolemaster simplified with Express Addenda 3

[Giovanni81]

Hello everyone,
I love Spell law and Character law but I dislike Arms Law: I know Arms Law is in the DNA of Rolemaster but i'd like to try something different.
I'm reading the simplification in Express Addenda issue 3 and i like it lot.

Anyone has played using the rules presented in this Express Addenda? Any feedback?

Another question: for me the mathematical structure could be simplified even further transforming formulas in order to obtain something equivalent but without summations. (so a lot faster)

For example: 1d100 OE + Skill >= 100
could be transformed in 1d100 OE <= Skill (the probability are the same but this second formula does not involve summation)
and so on: the formula for percentage result could be simplified in 50% + Skill - 1d100 OE, the formula for bonus could simply become Bonus = Skill - 1d100 OE
even the formula for combat could become 1d100 OE + AB >= 50 + DB (more intuitive and fast)

The question is: can I publish all this stuff as a little hack of Rolemaster using the table for the damage dice of the weapons presented in the Addenda in DriveThruRpg or it would be considered copyright infringement?
 

[Giovanni81]

I also add: if you want some coherence (i.e. you must always roll low) you can transform the formula for attack roll in a different way....

So resuming:

skills:
* all or nothing skill roll: 1d100 OE <= Skill value
* percentage skill roll: 50% + Skill value - 1d100 OE
* bonus skill roll: Skill value- 1d100 OE

RR:
* 1d100 <= 50 +(Defense level - Attack level) * 3

Attack roll:
* 1d100 OE <= 50 + OB - DB
for each 20 points below the threshold one damage dice is added to the pool of damage dices.

and that's all....a chartless Rolemaster with a coherent roll under mechanic!

[markc]

IMHO, this sounds like the old RuneQuest/StormBringer rule set using RM's spell list (I think it is Basic Roll Play now).


In general you need to send your submission to someone at ICE to ask for permission to publish, agreement with someone on the forums is not enough. Also it seems you are using the BRP (Runequest) rules so you would need to get their permission also.


But for a home game you can do just about anything.


Note: In general the BRP system has some issues (if I remember correctly from the 80's-90's) and I took a look at the newer system during a free download back around 2010 and their changes brought about more errors that they tried to solve by just waving their hands and saying it was simplification.


MDC

[jdale]

If your goal is just to share and distribute your own rule options, you could always submit it to the Vault. There aren't the same IP issues there since that is hosted by ICE.

[Giovanni81]

Yes is some sort of hybrid between BASIC RPG and Rolemaster but I do not think permission from Chaosium is needed:
I think it is not possible to patent a mechanic.
Otherwise Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay also should be licensed by Chaosium.
And Barebone Fantasy Roleplay also.
No company can say: if you use 1d100 roll under you need our license.
Even the concept of open ended roll I think cannot be patented.


Of course if you want to publish something with the Rolemaster logo then it's an entirely different matter.


In short: I'm not 100% sure but i believe IP cannot protect mechanics but it can protect identity.


In any case i will submit to the vault: it's the simpler way.

[markc]

Mechanics are formulas (math) which can be IP depending on difficulty.
ie D100 is not copy righted but the way you use the D100 to determine if you hit/determine success can be


But again it is always better to ask/submit to the company, then run into trouble. Follow JDales advice as ICE will look it over and make a decision as to if it is an issue.
But also since it involves rules like BRP you need to also ask them if there is a problem.


I know a patent attorney and in the past police officers and your phrase "I do not think it is unlawful/illegal" brings up a lot of stories told about people and what they did not think was an issue.


MDC

[markc]

Is this the first time you have asked this question?
The reason being quite a few years again when I was a moderator for ICE the same question was asked about combining BRP with RM stuff and if mixing the rules created something that was in essence "new rules".


MDC

[Giovanni81]

First time: I had the idea reading the Express Addenda cited in the title of the thread.
Maybe someone else has thought similar stuff.

I have found a link with some opinions (but i do not know if they are informed/accurate opinions): https://www.reddit.com/r/RPGdesign/comments/bgl96q/copyrights_and_dice_mechanics/

[markc]

I would do this, sort of like JDale said,
0) Be prepared for the project to not be viable as it uses other companies/peoples IP.

1) Contact the person at ICE and the other company/person who wrote the combat system, find out if they are interested in your project and what they need to make it happen.
1a) It would help if you have the contact info of the other company to pass to the other before you contact them.
2) See what you need to do to use the software selling site.
2a) Make sure there is $ for you if you are interested in $, ie if ICE, other company, software each want 40% of the selling price then that is 120% and it costs you 20% per item sold.
3) Then do you project
3a) Both parties will probably want to see your finished project before they give the final ok.


Math:
1) In the past I have looked at the math in BRP (from a free product in the last 10 years) and it had some math to game ideas errors. To make sure I was not just seeing things I did a search and found others had seen some of the issues I saw and that the authors did not see the issues as problems.
2) In general you need to look at the whole system and how it integrates with the other rules around it to see where issues arise.
In simple terms if you just look at a bunch of parts they may be fine but when you put them together there are issues.
3) In general you should hire or collaborate with a person who is good at math to help with any problems that you do not see.


MDC
 

[markc]

Sorry there is one thing I forgot,


Math Help:
1) Calculators, phone voice assistance, self made programs or apps can make that much easier if it is a problem with your group.
Or you can just have the info set up so you the GM just have to have the other players give you the dice roll and it figures it out for you. 


In general I have not seen the math to be that hard just lazy people who do not want to do it or use a calculator when others are not doing so.
MDC

[Giovanni81]

2) In general you need to look at the whole system and how it integrates with the other rules around it to see where issues arise.

In order to harmonize with rules in Character Law and Spell Law I think I should follow the Express Addenda as much as i can so:

Damage:
* each weapon as a damage dice depending on his size (d6,d8,d10,d12 or d20).
* when you hit you throw one damage dice and subtract AT.
* for each 20 points the result is below the threshold you throw one more damage dice.
  20 points below -> you throw 2 damage dice (it's called A crit)
  40 points below -> you throw 3 damage dice (it's called B crit)
  60 points below -> you throw 4 damage dice (it's called C crit)
  80 points below -> you throw 6 damage dice (it's called D crit)
  100 points below -> you throw 6 damage dice (it's called E crit)

(this is more or less the Addenda...other stuff I can add could be)

Exploding dices:
when you roll the maximum on the damage dices you re-roll and sum until you get a result different from the maximum.

Hit locations:
usually you hit the torso but with a penalty on OB you can target limbs or head.

Classification of injuries:
depending on how much damage you inflict, on the location and on the weapon used the master assigns a severity (possible severity: as in standard Rolemaster) and a target to the injury. (possible targets: muscles, organs, tendons.... et cetera)
For example 30 hit to the arm with a mace could be a severe injury to bones.

) Calculators, phone voice assistance, self made programs or apps can make that much easier if it is a problem with your group.
Or you can just have the info set up so you the GM just have to have the other players give you the dice roll and it figures it out for you.

I have played (as GM) RMFRP with ERA for Rolemaster: it worked great!
I'd like just to investigate the idea of a simpler, chartless Rolemaster as a sort of mental experiment. 
 

[markc]

A) Contact the people at ICE you need to see about licencing as described above.


Posting on Company Websites:
Be careful about posting info on companies websites as if you do you might be giving them permission to use what you post without attribution or compensation. If you want an easy example see Piazo website rules of conduct.


Dice, Dice and more Dice,
In general I avoid games where you roll more dice nowadays, it can be fun for a time but to me gets old very quickly. In the past I have played games where you have to roll 3 handfuls of d6's, large cups of d10's and others of multiple dies of different faces.
I find they tend to slow the game down and add a lot of time that can be better spent.
Example:
I was talking to a Shadowrun GM who had a whole weekend planned for the big final battle (about 25+ hours) and I told him he should ask his players to automate the climax to see just how much time they were spending die rolling. By automation they cut about 1/2 the time out and the GM even added more encounters to the adventure that he was just going to describe as happening since things were going so fast.


MDC   

[Giovanni81]

If you want to roll only one dice you could transform the crit increase in a multiplier:

20 points below -> you obtain a x2 multiplier (it's called A crit)
40 points below -> you obtain a x3 multiplier (it's called B crit)
60 points below -> you obtain a x4 multiplier (it's called C crit)
80 points below -> you obtain a x5 multiplier (it's called D crit)
100 points below -> you obtain a x6 multiplier (it's called E crit)

(on average is the same but the variance of this method is definitely higher: the possibility to kill even a robust antagonist in one shot is high.....I think this variant is more Rolemastery)

[markc]

You should:
A) Contact the people at ICE and the other company to get your project approved and or disapproved.


MDC

[markc]

For those interested as of this post (day, date, time) here is the link to contact ICE from the ICE Web Site:
http://ironcrown.com/contact-ice/


It has the contact info of people to contact for various things to do with ICE games.
MDC

[Witchking20k]

I have used the simplified RM from EA3 for a few adventures. I'd be happy to provide feedback if you want.....

[Giovanni81]

I contacted ICE: I will submit to the vault hopefully in 3/4 weeks.

If someone is interested in providing feedback on the rules I'll be super happy.

The greater problem for me is the language: if someone can provide help correcting my english in the final document i'll be grateful.

The most important goal is to mimic Rolemaster in order to make all the spell in Spell law usable.
So each crit must have a label  (A,B,...) each injury must have a severity, a target (muscles, bones.....) and some consequences (penalty, stun,  bleeding....).
And that's pretty much all.

[markc]

I am glad you got a hold of the right person and hope they will help you out.


Simplified RM,
I used the Simp RM rules for a 5-6 hour game (IIRC) and did not see the benefits that were supposed to arise and in fact saw quite a few "simplifications" that took away things I (and we the group) played RM for.
I do agree that Arms Law is not perfect but the Simp Arms Law was a lot less perfect for us. Or I should say I could have designed a simplified system that was very different from it to run a game with.
MDC
 

[Giovanni81]

I submitted to the vault but I think I can post my house rules even here: all the original ideas are there, polished and refined for fast gameplay.

***** START *****

General rule: how to do subtractions
In the rules set described below it often happens that you have to subtract two two-digit numbers.
Instead of subtracting as you normally do, you must subtract from the tens digit of the first number the tens digit of the second number and multiply the result by ten.
For example, if the first number is 84 and the second is 59 then the result will be 30 (that is (8-5)*10).
If the first number is 44 and the second is -19 the result will be 50 (that is (4 - (-1))*10 ) and so on.

All or nothing skill rolls
For all or nothing skill rolls the formula to determine if the attempt is successful or not is:
1d100 OE ≤ Skill Value + Difficulty modifiers
For example if the Skill value is 35, the difficulty modifier is -10 and the result is 11 then the attempt is successful.

Percentage skill rolls
For percentage skill rolls the formula to determine the final percentage is:
50% + Skill Value - 1d100 OE
For example for a skill value of 73 and a result of 40 the final percentage is 80%

Bonus skill rolls
For bonus skill rolls the formula to determine the bonus is:
(Skill value - 1d100 OE)/2
For example if the skill value is 82 and the result is 15 the final bonus is +35.

Resistance rolls
For RR the formula to successfully resist the effect is:
1d100 ≤ 50 +(Defender level - Attacker level)*3 + RR modifiers

Attack rolls
For attack rolls the formula to determine if the attack is successful is:
1d100 ≤ 50 + OB - DB
For each 20 points of difference between the threshold and the roll one more damage dice (see the next paragraph) is rolled and the result is called ‘critical it’.
For example if the threshold is 94 and the roll is 61 the difference is 30: 1 more damage dice.
20-39 points below the threshold is called A critical. (1 more damage dice)
40-59 points below the threshold is called B critical. (2 more damage dices)
60-79 points below the threshold is called C critical. (3 more damage dices)
80-99 points below the threshold is called D critical. (4 more damage dices)
100 or more points below the threshold is called E critical. (5 more damage dices)

Called shots
Usually the location hitted is the torso but with a penalty of -20 to the OB is possible for the attacker to choose a different location.

Damage
Each weapon has a damage dice depending on its size. Possible damage dice are d6, d8, d10. d12 and d20.
For example a sword has the d10, a tiny animal claw has the d6 and a huge ballista has the d20.
When you hit a target you roll a certain number of damage dice as explained before, applying the exploding dice rule (see the next paragraph), sum the results and subtract the AT of the location hitted (a standard subtraction).
The result is subtracted from the hit points of the defender.
For example you roll 3d10 and obtain 10, 6 and 5.
Then you re-roll the 10 and obtain an 8.
The final result is 10+8+6+5=29 hits.
If the target has AT 9 then he suffers 20 points of damage.

Exploding dices
when you roll the maximum on the damage dice you re-roll and sum until you get a result different from the maximum.

Injuries
Every time you hit a target inflicting one or more damage, the target suffers an injury.
Injuries are classified by four parameters: severity, location, target and consequences.
Severity is determined only by the number of hits inflicted. Superficial (1-10), light (11-20), medium (21-30) and severe (31 or more).
Location is usually the torso unless the attacker has targeted a specific location.
Target is determined only for injuries of severity light or superior.
There are six possible targets: muscle, tendons, bones, nerves, organs and skin. In order to maintain the system light there are no specific rules to determine the target.
The game master must use his own judgement basing his decision on severity, location and weapon used:
for example a severe injury to the head caused by a warhammer can target bones (the skull) or organs (the brain).
Consequences are determined by the game master only for injuries of severity light or superior using the following guidelines:
light injuries can cause penalties from -1 to -20, 1-5 points of bleeding  or 1 round of stun.
Medium injuries can cause penalties from -21 to -50, 6-10 points of bleeding or 2 rounds of stun.
Severe injuries can cause penalties from -51 to -100, 10 or more points of bleeding, maiming or instant death.
Maiming: it happens if 1d100 ≤ 30 - AT of the location.
Instant death: it happens if 1d100 ≤ 20 - AT of the location.

***** END *****

As you can say you could use Rolemaster, with the spells in Spell Law, the options for players and the healing rules in Chracter Law almost without changes.