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Systems & Settings => Rolemaster => Topic started by: Eladan on January 27, 2021, 10:39:26 PM
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After reading Brian Hanson's posts on Rolemasterblog of reviewing the Astrologer, I decided to take a crack at it. I would love to read your thoughts on these revised lists... I tried to use some of the ideas from that post as a guiding principle. The notion that celestial and astrological concepts should be a factor, as well as the combining and streamlining of the lists. As such, the final three lists are decidedly Astrologer, while the other three are Seer-based, dropping the junk spells and the repetition.
- For the Celestial Ways list, I tried to create a new mechanic of gaining bonuses at the expense of others from within your party, using vague and generic constellations as the naming convention.
- For the Sunfires and Moonfires lists, I took some pieces from the old Starlight's Ways list and tried to create two distinct lists with some influence from the Moon Mage as well (credit to Brian for the notion)
Any thoughts? Overpowered? Underpowered? The new mechanic was just something I thought would make the Astrologer unique and give them role as a buff/support caster as well to make them more playable, and not consigned to the NPC folder.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zT8uikMsR7RvNHHCzt9EtzUVCCUTk98s/view?usp=sharing
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I did not look at the lists but from stuff in the past here are the common problems I have seen.
1) Many game worlds are different from Earth and lists tend to either follow the specific setting celestial body or universe model or earths and they often do not work in outer systems.
2) Astrology can be defined as celestial bodies interactions thus #1 above is even more important to define for the lists to work.
MDC
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They look great! I didn't do a deep dive yet into Moonfires and Celestial Ways, but you cleaned up the lists and put a good spin on a astrology mechanism.
Great job!
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Yes, this is great!
I just did a skim but it makes for a much more conceptually unified and mechanically viable profession.
I am happy to now add Astrologers to my list of RMU classes!
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Whoa... approval from you guys is a gold star in my book. I posted this to the ICE Discord channel as well and the issues they brought up were:
- Clarity of language on the Celestial Ways list. I agree I need to tighten the language up a bit. The way the mechanic should work is someone in your party gets a bonus to the first ability and then someone else in the party gets a penalty to another ability, for the duration of the spell. Fighter wants a bonus to his OB? Then the Mage has to take a penalty to Dir Spells.
- Critique of the True Visions list. Yes, it is overly simplistic and very literal (helps a Seer... see...), but other suggestions like doomsaying and things like "I see death in your future, make an RR or die" I feel are either too overpowered or difficult to implement in a PC. I was leery about integrating the Tarotmaster concepts from RoCo7 because I feel like they add new mechanics that are unwieldy.
- Yes, the Question spells under Mind Visions are a little awkward, but I think they fit the character concept and I interpreted them as divining information from the mind, so kept them there.
Either way, I'm glad you guys think it streamlines the profession a bit. @markc, I agree with the setting-specific issues. I tried the keep the descriptions relatively generic for that reason.
Active link. Meant to have this in the first post.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zT8uikMsR7RvNHHCzt9EtzUVCCUTk98s/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zT8uikMsR7RvNHHCzt9EtzUVCCUTk98s/view?usp=sharing)
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I have my own version of the Astrologer as well, and I gave it "Divinations" (Al.Co. p137), "Earthly Current" (AL.Co. p140), a swapped version of "Harmonize Forces" (AL.Co. p141; because IMO the human<water<wood<earth<metal<fire<spirit<magic order makes little sense so it was changed to wood<fire<earth<metal<water<human<spirit<magic), "Wyrd Mastery" (S.U.C. p41-42), as well as my own spell lists, "Animal Affinity" and "Elemental Affinity" that I posted in the Vault.
It goes hand-in-hand with my Magician variants, the Wood Mage, the Fire Mage, the Earth Mage, the Metal Mage, the Water Mage, and the True Mage, since all of them are linked to a common conception of the Universe. ;)
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I didn't have the time to do a deep dive Eladan, but I look forward to when I do. I'm just happy that the class is being made more viable, with spells at every level, so I can offer it in RMU.
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Overall, I like these. It seems interesting, thematic, and playable. That said...
True Visions feels like it needs a boost at the higher end. I don't think there's anything wrong with simple and literal, just the high end spells don't feel high end. Some kind of astral projection might offer a way to scout further but incorporate some risk....? Merged Senses is great, the spell type is not right though (P?). Should those be type F spells so you can use it against someone's will? If so, should have a note about whether they are aware (e.g. they are not aware if they fail their RR by -30 or more, maybe there is a penalty on the original RR as well). But locating a target with Presence and then Mind Store followed by Merged Senses is often going to be better than seeing through walls, and it seems much more interesting. Another helpful spell here might change your next spell from this list from duration C to duration "1 min/lvl (C)" or "10 min/lvl (C)" so that the spell doesn't end as soon as you stop concentrating.
The Celestial Ways trade-offs are really interesting and they have great color but I think the benefits are not good enough for the PP costs. To give a +10 bonus which is pretty low for a bonus-granting spell, you need to have cast Link of Comets (6 PP) on at least two people (12 PP) plus the spell to give the bonus (at least 6 PP), and someone suffers a penalty on top of that. I would probably require the Link spell to only be cast once for the whole group (not once per member) and double the bonuses. Or, make the transfer spells free to cast (paying PP just for the initial links), so it really feels like it is being powered by the sacrifice and not by the astrologer.
Also, losing 2xPower Development for a small bonus to crafting (Hammer of the Smith) is just a terrible trade-off. I can't imagine ever doing that. E.g. it's another -10 PP for just +5 crafting.
You could also add some in-group communication spells to take advantage of that link.
I like the Sunfires list a lot, but I would suggest using size adjustments for the Sun Bolts (e.g. small, medium, and big fire bolts) rather than changing tables. As written, the middle one has the worst penetration vs metal armor, which is a bit weird.
Moonfires too, the spell here that I think needs a clearer (maybe simpler) mechanic is Starburn. It's unclear whether the damage increases based on the amount of failure or just the duration, and doing an attack that results in a resistable spell seems like too many rolls with too many opportunities for spell failure.
To Mark's comment about setting, as it happens I've been working on lists for my very setting-specific Star Mage which draws upon the power of ancient orbital satellites... quite a different take on an astrologer-ish profession.
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@Jdale – Appreciate the compliments and especially the critique. I was specifically worried about what you pointed out — whether the lists have the right power balance. I agree that they skew towards underpowered.
True Visions
- I actually was thinking spells should be X min/lvl (C). Simple fix.
- Love the penalties and “target notices” additions for Merge Sense. I think they ramp the utility and power of the list.
- Still trying to figure out what high-end spells could be added. Your suggestion of Astral Projection reminds me of the Silver Cord concept from D&D. Could definitely have some use here. I think of the Astrologer/Seer as the character who coordinates large groups through communication at higher levels. While I don’t want to overlap this profession with my revised Shaman, I keep thinking of lines from LotR by Galadriel and Gandalf: “He has gone beyond my sight”, so some spells that give a true ability to send forth the consciousness would be fitting for higher levels.
Celestial Ways
- I was fearful of power creep so may have made them underwhelming without considering some of the other resources these spells require. I agree some of them need boosting. Part of my hesitation was that the spells all have a base duration of an hour. Not many other spells give OB bonuses for an hour so I was hesitant. Thoughts there? Just increase the duration for certain spells perhaps?
- It would be easy enough to increase the bonuses at each Link threshold, as well as add some additional flavor to the lower level Link spells (Level 6 - Linked members gain Mind Speech; Level 11 - Linked members gain blah blah).
- Point taken about the requirement to cast the Link spells on every member. I need to look at overall costs.
Sun/Moonfires
- Agreed on just using size adjustments. That was my initial leaning… should have gone with my gut.
- I suppose I could make Starburn simply a DoT they have to resist. I just liked the visual of starfire shimmering through the air and rippling over someone with a frosty burn. I suppose that could be written in as a visual effect. Certainly it simplifies the spell.
@Jdale and @OLF – I would love to see some of your notes for your versions of the Star Mage, and I never even considered the Alchemy Companion lists… seems obvious as a resource now. OLF, are your lists on the forum?
@Hurin Whenever you can and no rush… I always appreciate your thoughts.
Excellent suggestions everyone. Back to editing!
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True Visions: if you want to avoid spirit projection to keep it distinct from Shaman, you could build on Merge Sense. Maybe the astrologer creates a link to an ally (builds on the concept from Celestial Ways) and they can reach that particular ally even at great distances, but can only explore within X' radius of that ally. That might work nicely giving a role to a stealth character in the party who has to get close, working with the astrologer to get even closer. Scouting is often about one player, making them work as a team seems good.
Celestial Ways: good point about the hour duration. Doubling the bonuses is probably too much. Free spells, maybe still, especially if you increase the penalty for cancellation so the Burdened is more likely to suffer the consequences (perhaps if the spell is cancelled, they are removed from the link for the rest of the day?).
Quick summary of my Star Mage:
* Star Mastery: invisible local communication to other Star casters at 2nd level, unlimited distance to others whose star name is known at 5th, spells to get new names, to hide your name, harm someone else's name, send a waiting message, and at higher levels illuminate a large area or blast an area.
* Star Law: anti-scrying, eavesdropping, spying on other people's scrying, find the star names of others, etc.
* Star Sight: scrying which means getting the view as it is seen from above, at low levels of your own location and at high levels of any location. Setting stars to monitor for movement, record, etc.
* Star's Wisdom: bonuses to lore and information skills that would benefit from a celestial view (e.g. it will get you the rate of growth of the city but it won't get you the mayor's name), intuitions, dreams, speaking with entities beyond the world (which in this case means in orbit, on the moon, and further out into the planets).
* Weather Star: weather prediction and control, including hailstorms, lightning (from the sky), etc.
* Virtual Star?: creating relays that connect you to the sky without a direct line of site or simulate the functions of a star when the actual stars are unreachable (e.g. underground). Haven't written this list yet, not sure what else will be on it.
I also have two lists for semis, Soldier's Star and Scoundrel's Star, which provide some star and light magic that is suited to the needs of martial and stealth professions respectively. So that means for my current party of players, there is one mage with a bunch of star magic but also he can communicate with the aether knight and the dabbler (even though they haven't quite reached the level where they can initiate contact themselves beyond a hundred feet or so).
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Your Star Mage sounds interesting JDale. Just one request: at least a few attack spells! My players are hack and slashers, so if there's no combat spells, the class just doesn't get played.
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If you have the setting Shades of Darkness they also have some list that deal with stars and other stuff.
I was looking at the book last week for undead info from another post.
MDC
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@Eladan: the Alchemy Companion has IMO good stuff for astrologer-like professions. On another topic, my lists used to be in the Vault, but I cannot find the link any longer in the forums page. Mayhap we lost it?
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@ OLF - Thwarted again! Those pesky kids and their dog! I%u2019ll check out AlCo a bit more intensively. It%u2019s an almost overwhelming resource.
@markc - I just became aware of Shades of Darkness as a resource and love it. I%u2019ll check that out too. Using the Ulpir Hunter as the baseline for my semi-spell using Bounty Hunter.
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I%u2019|| ?
I did a search and got test prep. So any help would be great.
MDC
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%u2019 is part of the unicode representation of an apostrophe. Just a bug somewhere between the browser and the site that got that entered or displayed incorrectly.
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@Jdale - The more I think about it, I actually really like the free spell option.
- Do you think that the option for it to cost PPs would be too overpowered to then double the cost? Maybe make that a 10th or 16th level add-on to those link spells? So Link spells allow for free PP casting, the sacrifice fuels the spell, but Astolor can spend PPs to cast the spell to double the effect...
- If I go this way with the free spell option, I feel like having to make the initial cast of the link spells on every member is fairer since it seems like an initial PP investment for long term gain.
@markc - Responded from my phone that time and it kept messing up my text. Those were supposed to be apostrophes.
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I'm trying to decide whether I think double the bonus for an hour is too much. Could be +50%, although that's a little annoying in play. Could be the bonus is only doubled for the first 1 min/lvl or 1 rnd/lvl and regular after that? The regular bonus and the penalty on the Burdened should be the full hour.
I suppose the better answer is to playtest it and see.
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No problem, I was just wondering it it was some new game from Central, Eastern Europe or Asia that I had not heard of yet that people were very fond of.
MDC
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Alrighty... revised the lists using some of the advice from you all. I'll probably revisit them for additional tweaks next week so if you see anything glaringly off, let me know. Like Hurin, I'm determined to be able to have this and a few other professions viable and ready for the RMU release. Two highlights:
- Celestial Ways - Each Link spell builds off of the last one, giving more options at each threshold in applying the bonuses/penalties. I also made the other spells free since they are fueled by the traded skills. If that's too OP, add the PP cost back in.
- True Visions - Moved some of the spells lower on the list and made room for Project Sense, per Jdale's suggestion, allowing the caster to use someone under the Merged Sense spell as a remote point for projecting his senses further.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gUK3ir0lGWDb-0b1h4LtHlTM-vtU72Y4/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gUK3ir0lGWDb-0b1h4LtHlTM-vtU72Y4/view?usp=sharing)
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Looking good. I would let a player use this (if it made sense for my setting), and I think it would be interesting to play. Some relatively trivial notes:
True Visions:
Nightsight: I would define this more clearly in terms of penalties. Could be the same as Nightvision, or if you want it to be better (which is fine I think) you could say there are no penalties for anything short of pitch dark.
Merged Sight: there's a typo here.
Darksight: would be useful to specify whether this does or doesn't include Utterdark.
Mind Visions:
Mind Typing I, Finding I: typos here.
Temporal Visions:
Origins: "place of origin"
Intuitions: there's been lots of discussion of this spell. I would use the RMU wording which is "Caster gains a vision of what will probably happen in the next minute if the caster takes a specified action." The word "probably" is very important here.
Also need to add the spell types for three of the lists.
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@Jdale - You rock man. Appreciate the proofing. Saved me my 24-hour revisit rule. And your endorsement of letting a player try it is good enough for me!
Changed Nightvision to Darkvision and the higher level Darkvision to Utterdarkvision. Since I'm still unsure of the ruling of whether Utterlight or Utterdark is stronger, Utterdark sees through Darkness spells and allows a RR vs Utterdarkness.