Forum > Cyradon
Naguzi and Tough Hide - a Big Mistake?
jasonbrisbane:
Hello,
All of my players want to play nagazi - because they are a different race than others they have played. I dont have a problem with that. Several of them want to use Martial Law for the Combat tables - they are more deadlier and dont have any problem with the increase chances of dying.
The problem comes up when using talking about the Naguzi and their Tough Hide (Minor) racial ability. This gives them a +20DB - the same as Stoneskin/Steelskin base spell. Now as a player they can buy soft leather, 6 ranks in Steel/Stoneskin (assuming correctly class) and be a Nagazi. For NO penalty they have +60DB. :-\
This seems to be a big flaw to me and against the ideas that HARP has developed around. The bonuses come from a variety of sources, and this is before anyone develops Shield Training and picks up a shield!!! :-\
Now the problem gets bigger when you figure in the adjusted Martial Law rules - No Armour = =+10 hits, +1 bleeder, stun, etc. Plate armour = -10 hits/crit, less bleeders and stun because the armour soaks the damage.
The Skin Spells and Armour count as padding so does this mean they have the +60 armour bonus and take damage as per the Chain modifier in Martial Law? What if they decide to wear Chain? Does this now become the same as FullPlate? What about when they wear Full Plate+Spell+Tough Hide+Shield+whatever else? ???
How does the Martial Law combat Critical modifiers count when dealing with Tough Hide and Physical Armour? ???
Does the bonuses for Spells count too, since the Spell Steelskin is hardening your skin the same way that Tough Hide, or Soft leather does? ???
Now a method of looking at it might be to say that Tough Hide cannot stack with soft leather. But Rigid Leather is essentially this, isnt it? Chain is supposed to be chain with a backing of leather that it is woven/sewen onto so how does the armour NOT stack? ???
Does the stacking armour issues mean that the person has a +60Db but soft leather Martial Law penalty? Does the toughest penalty apply in terms of Critical Modifiers? ???
EG If Sean of the Dead has Tough Skin (Minor) (+20DB) and has an Active Spell of Steelskin (+20DB) and wears Chain Armour (+60DB) then he gains the +100DB, but any critical he receives is modified as per Chain Armour as that is the toughest armour he has.
But if you wear Tough Hide(Minor), Steelskin (+20DB) and Soft leahrer, then you have three bonsues to armour, so why DONT they stack, giving all the benefits of +60 Chain??? ???
Can someone please explai this to me and provide a definitive answer for the HARP rules in Cyradon?
(and yes, I have thought of the rule: Rocks Fall, Everyone dies! ;D )
Rasyr-Mjolnir:
1) Your players are all wanting to min/max the system. Keep this in mind..
2) Since Nagazi already have tough skin, and since the Steelskin spell basically toughens skin, you could rule that the spell has no effect upon the Nagazi until the bonus is above +20...
3) The wearing of any sort of armor is going to have an adverse effect on the casting of spells (i.e. it will cost more PP and require more skill ranks). Armor DOES have a casting penalty.
4) Tough skin and Steelskin are not armor, thus when using the Martial Law tables, these both count as not wearing armor at all.
5) Nagazi are a civilized race, and are not likely to wear armor often. And even when they do, they will take the natural protectiveness of their skin into account and trust it. This means that in those rare times that they do wear armor, they are most likely going to wear only helm, bracers and either shirt or cuirass (my bet is on cuirass) (HARP Armor by the piece, page 89 of core rule book), not full suits.
6) They all want to be Warrior Mages? Okay, what sort of campaign are you running? Personally, for a group just being introduced to Cyradon, I would limit the playable races, for the majority of the group, to those from Anias. This allows you to have a group of people with a reason to explore their new world to find out what is out there. If they are all playing Nagazi, that means that some of them will already have the knowledge about the world around them. IMO, it would be quite alright to limit first time characters to those from Anias, at least until they have played through a number of adventures.
7) If you are using the "Grayson forms adventuring teams for exploration" premise, then while he will accept some of the Cyradon races into the teams, he won't actually form a full team from such.
8) Grayson and his people will not allow more than one or 2 non-Anias people on any of the Cyradon Teams.
9) Grayson and his people are, at the compact signing, given rulership over all of the Devastation. (The Restored Lands, specifically, but the Arali doubt that the humans can restore any more of it, so they gave them all of the Devastation in a gesture (which they will later regret mightily).
10) Being a very civilized and lawful people, the Nagazi would not go exploring without the permission of those who "own" the land, and this means that they would have to ask Grayson, if they wanted to mess aroun within the Devastation or Restored Lands, then that means getting permission from Grayson, and he will say no, unless they are willing to join human teams (thus busting up their "all-Nagazi" team.
11) Nagazi leaders will also respect what they give the humans. This means that they will require all Nagazi who wish to go exploring in the Devastation and Restored Lands, to report to Belynar, and join with Grayson's teams (this being part of the deal made in the Compact that all of the races signed). To do otherwise would make them criminals in the eyes of the Nagazi, and thus no Nagazi would there-after be criminals in Nagazi society.
That should give you a bit of ammunition...
asdohol:
1) No were not. It's more a case of having a racial ability that is a bonus as opposed to playing a human in armour
2) Agreed though it had not yet been discussed at the game
3) Fully aware of that and certainly don't have a problem with that
4) Makes sense
5) p82 Cyradon "In times of battle, they will often augment the natural toughness of their own hide with leather scale armour (rigid leather) or light chain." That passage kind of suggests otherwise. Mind you, wearing armour by the piece will keep the PP cost down
6) There is only 1 Warrior Mage, a Monk (who is already self centred and a meanie), a Ranger and a Shadow blade. The ranger is not a Nagazi.
7) Why not? Grayson will need Belynar cleared as soon as possible, so he should be happy with any group that volunteers to help. Then again given the initial language barrier, a refugee is highly recommended as part of the group.
9) Figured as much
10) Possibly, but if as a team we do well in the city he will most likely grant permission for the lands outside
11) None of us (players) will have any issue with that decree from the leaders, actually that would kind of been the point in playing in Cyradon, all those possibilities within the devastation
Rasyr-Mjolnir:
--- Quote from: asdohol on July 04, 2007, 06:46:59 AM ---1) No were not. It's more a case of having a racial ability that is a bonus as opposed to playing a human in armour
--- End quote ---
Please note that my comments are and were colored solely by the information that Jason provided in the first post. From the description he gave, it DID indeed sound as he had a group of players trying to min/max the system. All Nagazi, All with Steelskin (a Warrior Mage spell), etc...
Going back an rereading it, after reading your post, I can see that perhaps I may have made some presumptions based on the overall tones of his post that were incorrect. My apologies if those were incorrect.
--- Quote from: asdohol on July 04, 2007, 06:46:59 AM ---2) Agreed though it had not yet been discussed at the game
--- End quote ---
Any rules changes should always be discussed and the group should at least know about any changes to the core rules. I have stated something along this line many times, so I wasn't telling Jason to exclude you guys from such a decision. :D
--- Quote from: asdohol on July 04, 2007, 06:46:59 AM ---3) Fully aware of that and certainly don't have a problem with that
--- End quote ---
Ahh... But I was reminding Jason. ;D Besides, I was also under the impression that all the Nagazi were Warrior Mages....
--- Quote from: asdohol on July 04, 2007, 06:46:59 AM ---4) Makes sense
--- End quote ---
It should. ;D That was the official ruling given on it when Martial Law first cam out...
--- Quote from: asdohol on July 04, 2007, 06:46:59 AM ---5) p82 Cyradon "In times of battle, they will often augment the natural toughness of their own hide with leather scale armour (rigid leather) or light chain." That passage kind of suggests otherwise. Mind you, wearing armour by the piece will keep the PP cost down
--- End quote ---
Light Chain = not full chain = shirt or cuirass most likely. That was my thought process. I then extended it down into the reinforced leather category as well.
Also, as I was attempting to explain, the Nagazi are intelligent, they will realize that they when they have to don armor it is to protect vital spots more than anything else. They know that their skin is tougher than most of the other races that they will encounter.
Also remember that I was talking about the general mind-set and attitude of the race. Individuals may vary from that norm quite easily.
--- Quote from: asdohol on July 04, 2007, 06:46:59 AM ---6) There is only 1 Warrior Mage, a Monk (who is already self centred and a meanie), a Ranger and a Shadow blade. The ranger is not a Nagazi.
--- End quote ---
Again, a mistake on my part based upon how Jason phrased his initial post... ;D
--- Quote from: asdohol on July 04, 2007, 06:46:59 AM ---7) Why not? Grayson will need Belynar cleared as soon as possible, so he should be happy with any group that volunteers to help. Then again given the initial language barrier, a refugee is highly recommended as part of the group.
--- End quote ---
Look at it from Grayson's point of view. He has spent the last several years fighting a war, only to barely escape with both his life and the life of those in his charge. Since arriving, he has been outright threatened Arali and defeated an attempt by the Desnians to take control of them.
He is not going to be fully trustful of ANY of the Cyradon races, not this soon after arriving. He will want one of his people in charge of any group. And he is going to want more of his people on teams than outsiders..
Of course, there could be exceptions, but again, I was describing general attitudes overall...
--- Quote from: asdohol on July 04, 2007, 06:46:59 AM ---9) Figured as much
--- End quote ---
;D
--- Quote from: asdohol on July 04, 2007, 06:46:59 AM ---10) Possibly, but if as a team we do well in the city he will most likely grant permission for the lands outside
--- End quote ---
That is a possibility...
--- Quote from: asdohol on July 04, 2007, 06:46:59 AM ---11) None of us (players) will have any issue with that decree from the leaders, actually that would kind of been the point in playing in Cyradon, all those possibilities within the devastation
--- End quote ---
;D
yammahoper:
So...if I set up a secret shop in the basement of a building on Fleet Street were we bring Naguzi skins, could we make some armor that provides a nice superior bonus? Hmm...guess I'm gonna have to find me a demon barber :idea:
lynn
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