Author Topic: Facing with simplified initiative system  (Read 1038 times)

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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Facing with simplified initiative system
« on: January 13, 2020, 08:53:46 AM »
With the original initiative system movement for everyone comes before attacks. that makes it really easy to determine facing: if you get behind someone during the movement phase, you have a rear attack during melee. I'll be using the simplified initiative system: d100 + quickness, count down from 200. We used this decades ago and it was definitely faster and easier for D&D players to learn.

But... I don't remember how we handled facing. I'm think of doing it kinda like D&D. You can change facing at any time, so it doesn't really come into play except when surrounded by multiple foes, in which case you choose who flanks or who gets a rear shot.

How do you do it?
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Facing with simplified initiative system
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2020, 01:09:37 PM »
We’ve had a fair bit of discussion about the facing issue in the upcoming RMu, so if it helps, here’s my take:

There are two basic types of initiative systems: simultaneous (RM2 core) and sequential (RMu/D&D).

In simultaneous systems like RM2 core, some or all actions are essentially simultaneous. This is true of the spell and missile and more or less the movement phase as well: they are resolved simultaneously. This means that for example two Magicians casting Firebolt at each other can each kill each other in the same phase, because spells are resolved together, and all take effect at the same time. What this means for movement is essentially that any movement conflicts are adjudicated by the GM, and the GM can rule that Character A should be able to turn to face Character B before Character B can get to the rear of Character A.

The downsides of this system are significant, however. First, this simultaneous system requires an extra step to combat – the declaration phase – where characters state their actions. That slows down combat, and can cause metagaming problems by revealing what characters are intending to do to the players. It also requires players to try to predict what other characters are going to do or where they are going to be in the future, which is sometimes very hard to do, and leads to players trying to cancel actions. Secondly, the core rules never gave much guidance as to how easy or hard it should be for one character to get behind another, essentially leaving it up to the GM to work it out. Finally, the core rules did not treat melee combat the same way: instead of being simultaneous, melee combat was sequential, with each character resolving a full attack and implementing the results before the next got to act. This created still further temporal problems, especially because elsewhere the rules defined melee combat as a flurry of blows. The initiative rules though were treating melee combat as a set of single blows, entirely made and resolved by one character before the next could act. Melee was sequential, but everything else was simultaneous.

So, D&D, Pathfinder, the RM2 Companions (some of the new initiative systems), and now (imho) RMu offer a different type of system: a sequential system. In this system, each character takes an action – spell, missile, movement, or melee – and resolves it before the next character can act. This has the great advantage of treating all actions the same (rather than having different rules for melee vs. everything else), and it also speeds up play by eliminating the need for a declarations phase.

As you can predict, though, what you now need to add to a sequential system if you want it to work best is some additional opportunity for characters to react to other characters’ actions. Because now there is no GM to adjudicate and say, ‘No, you can’t just run 50’ around the Orc and to his back without him turning to face you; he can see you coming.’ D&D doesn’t need this in its core rules because it doesn’t have facing rules in its core; but it does add them in the DMG (p. 252) as optional rules, and these additional rules do indeed specify that creatures can change facing any time they move, or as a reaction when any other creature moves. Similarly, RMu has added a free change of facing so long as the character is not moving at a run (3x) or faster.

I much prefer the DnD/Pathfinder/RMu system, as it speeds up combat and clarifies the rules by treating all actions the same. My only beef with the new RMu system is that I would like to see clearer rules for movement conflicts than ‘Roll opposed skill checks’. I would also like to see zones of control actually be controlling in RMu, because these too prevent facing abuse: movement into and through an opponent’s zone of control right now in the core rules is not punished at all by the sort of ‘opportunity attacks’ that DnD and Pathfinder use, which means RMu’s zones of control are not actually controlling at all. I would also like to see more robust rules for opportunity attacks, which are hamstrung in RMu because they require the attacker to have already spent AP on an attack, as well as for the attacker to have declared an attack against the mover specifically (and spent at least 1 ap on it). Neither of these is the case in DnD or Pathfinder.

I posted my suggested rules for facing and opportunity attacks here, if they might be of use to you:

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=19183.0

TLDR: I would first decide if you are using a simultaneous or a sequential system. It sounds like you want to move away from the RM2 core, which is a mostly simultaneous system, towards a sequential system. If so, I would indeed offer a free change of facing. I would also consider beefing up opportunity attacks – i.e. offering them free – when opponents move carelessly through another character’s zone of control, because zones of control and opportunity attacks are what make players have to think twice about abusing facing rules.
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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Facing with simplified initiative system
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2020, 01:37:54 PM »
Definitely sequential. I've hated simultaneous systems since waaay back in the early D&D days.

I like a free facing change. In our intro sessions (next month! :D) I'll let people know what facing is and that it gives bonuses, but won't actually apply it unless a couple of people are acting together to jockey for superior position on a foe. Also, if your action targets someone else, that's you facing for the remainder of the round. So no "I kill the dude in front of me and a microsecond later I'm facing the guy who was behind me. Then I'm facing the other guy. Then the other."

I hadn't thought of opportunity attacks. I'll skip them in the intro and then talk to the players about it. We've all done D&D 3 or higher, so we all know what they are. I'll leave it up to them if they want to use them. If they say yes, I'll have to figure out how they work. :D
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Facing with simplified initiative system
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2020, 02:18:50 PM »
Also, if your action targets someone else, that's you facing for the remainder of the round. So no "I kill the dude in front of me and a microsecond later I'm facing the guy who was behind me. Then I'm facing the other guy. Then the other."

Yes, that's the way I do it to. That's why I added the word 'unengaged' to the rules about when you can take a free change of facing.

Quote
I hadn't thought of opportunity attacks. I'll skip them in the intro and then talk to the players about it. We've all done D&D 3 or higher, so we all know what they are. I'll leave it up to them if they want to use them. If they say yes, I'll have to figure out how they work. :D

I do give rules for that too in the forum thread where I posted my houserules.

The main question you have to ask is, 'How much should opportunity attacks cost?' In DnD and Pathfinder, they cost a reaction, which is roughly analogous to a cost of 0 (instantaneous action) in RMu. (That is because the cost = an action that you only get one of per turn, but that doesn't inhibit your full/standard/4ap action for the turn). In RMu, though, they cost 2ap minimum -- meaning taking the reaction inhibits your other actions for the turn. This is why I reduce the cost in RMu to an instantaneous action.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

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Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Facing with simplified initiative system
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2020, 02:37:57 PM »
RM2 doesn't have a concept of action costs outside of applying penalties to other actions. For instance, adrenal speed plus an attack means both are at -20. I'm not sure how to handle reactions in that system, since an opportunity attack may happen after someone's normal attack and the penalty doesn't apply.

Maybe require a declaration in advance? They pay -50* penalty on their turn to reserve the chance for an OA later in the round. The opponent would know this, which would make it a little easier to actually control the area around you. The NPC or PC gets to decide "is moving away worth getting bitch slapped?"

* rough, first-pass, thought on the cost. If it's too steep nobody will ever do it. If it's too low everyone will always do it and in many situations it becomes a way to mirror two-weapon fighting without the massive skill costs.
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Offline Hurin

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Re: Facing with simplified initiative system
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2020, 03:13:04 PM »
* rough, first-pass, thought on the cost. If it's too steep nobody will ever do it. If it's too low everyone will always do it and in many situations it becomes a way to mirror two-weapon fighting without the massive skill costs.

Aye, there's the rub.

Note though that in order to provoke such an attack, the target has to do something stupid, like trying to run, guard-down, past a master swordsman. So I don't have a problem keeping the cost low, since it is a quick blow to educate someone who made a bad mistake. In DnD and Pathfinder the cost is a reaction. In RMu I would make it an instantaneous action (rather than the 2 ap minimum it is now). In RM2, I think you could make it something like a -10 to -20 penalty: it is reserving a bit of your activity to smack down a fool.
'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed'. --J.R.R. Tolkien

'Every party needs at least one insane person.'  --Aspen of the Jade Isle

Offline Ginger McMurray

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Re: Facing with simplified initiative system
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2020, 03:23:07 PM »
Hmmm.... Maybe give them a choice. Like when parrying. Exactly how badly do you want to keep them there? -20 to your main attack means -80 to your reactive attack. The opponent will know if you're focused more on hitting them now or keeping them locked down, but won't know the numbers.

Fear not, I'll be back if they decide they want to use them. First step: getting them to decide they want to play the campaign! :D
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