Topic: Cretinous spells & spell adders

[ZuS]

Yea, HARP has serious problems with certain spells and a general issue with spell adders. Let me make a short list.

Teleport (Long Door & Shadow Step) can get you in and out of combat in a single round, make you move faster than a horse (or a griffin) even in small scale tactical environments, let you go through and over barriers in an instant, let you travel hundreds of miles in an instant (270 miles at level 8 ) and all this with no risk for your health or any special requirements. The spell has removed all the fun from the game: melee stopped existing, normal means of transport made no sense, huge scenarios reduced to a couple of zippidy zips. We simply banned the spell in the end. Seriously - wtf were HARP people thinking?

Magic Darts - does noone in the HARP spell design team have any sense for math? The damage grows quadratically with scaling option, there is no resistance roll and you hit almost automaticaly.

Spell adders - now here's a treat for the mage. Total freedom to scale the doodoo out of the game. Last session a mage used a spell adder with Magic Darts to deliver 200+ insta damage and 40 points of bleeding to a human target - the average result for lvl 8 mage specced with Magic Darts. We are looking forward to insta-killing dragons with out lvl 8 mage.

These are just some of the nutcase items from the box. We banned Sanctuary as well, since we thought that transporting 50 soldiers in a coin was just a tad destructive for our game. Imagine teleporting them in a coin - a lvl 8 mage with a few spell adders can move an army 270 miles in a few minutes using Sanctuary and Long Door alone. Invis-attack-invis (2 second rounds, uninterruptable spell) has eliminated melee from the game. Casters are so imba that we don't have any non-casters in the group at all - don't need them for anything.

[Sazen]

So your party makes munchkin spell casters and the game is unbalanced?

For one you can only ever have one Spell-adder attuned to a person per 24 hour period, carring more is just extra weight. Yes you can make it a +5 and pull that trick 5 times in a day, so what i'll send twice party number in fighters at you....

If your players are abusing magic, abuse it back. Darkness cast on a mage effectively stops him targeting high damage dealing spell. Based on your level 8 Mage with maxed out spells is going to be weaker in other points.

Our party uses long door and shadowport in combat all the time and we still have alot of difficultly with fights and traps so i dont understand the point there.....

[NicholasHMCaldwell]

An appropriate constraint on teleportation spells is that if the destination is not in "line of sight", then the caster should be required to have cast Study target on the location at some point in the past and still have it "stored" in a Study Target slot. That mimics what was required in Rolemaster without the more unhealthy side-effects.

Best wishes,
Nicholas

[jasonbrisbane]

Not to mention that you cant cast more than one spell a round (instantaneous excepted) as its against the rules.
One spell and one instantaneous spell per round, regardless of hast/etc.

So, No you cant teleport in, ambush kill and teleport out again...

Realistically (dont have books to confirm exact round actions):
- Mage cast teleport - full round action (assuming he is far enough away to not be in running distance of the combatants)
- enemy fighters perform actions. enemy gets full round perception if they are not aware of the mages teleporting as they would be standing aorund looking randomly, or they might be moving and fighting others, or moving to enter combat - either way the mage doesn't get a free ride. Chances are they can do a move and attack, getting at least one attack against them at a lower OB (due to movement, etc)
- mage then needs to do either a full round perception or combat perception (-50) to find out where the enemy guys are as they would have/may have moved during the last round).
- Enemy gets another attack at full OB. other fighters can move in and attack... remember fighters are not going to stay in a single 10 foot radius area due to mages love of area effect spells, or darkness, or other spells - space the fighters well apart...
- NOW the enemy mage can attempt to cast a spell, or fast cast, or use a spell adder.

And as Sazen said.. if you have 6 mages in the party, then have a party with one mage who has cast mass invisibility (scaled) with the other 30 fighters standing around who pop out ionce the mages have teleported in!

Ideas:
fighters use clubs as crush deals a lot of stun crits. makes it hard to fast cast teleport with -50!

One round of stun and they cant cast offensive spells either!

If mages are getting away against enemy without the fighters getting ahit off, then your doing it completely wrong....


BTW: be prepared for a HUGE backlash form your players as they get completely Nerfed becuase you read the rules wrong...


I'm Just saying is all.....

[jasonbrisbane]

PS: can you give us a detailed example of a combat?
We will be glad to assist with where your going wrong and were in the book to look for the rules clarifications.

PSS: No sarcasm intended in ANY way! HARP is supposed to a semi realistic rpg - at least we think it is! If your having issues then we want to help!

[ZuS]

So your party makes munchkin spell casters and the game is unbalanced?

We actually have a player that does nothing BUT create munchkin spell casters, which in turn introduces a trend of munchkiness if the other players ever want to see action. A very damaging tendency. The moment we banned all forms of teleport, he transferred the points to Magic Darts.

For one you can only ever have one Spell-adder attuned to a person per 24 hour period, carring more is just extra weight. Yes you can make it a +5 and pull that trick 5 times in a day, so what i'll send twice party number in fighters at you....

Can you by any chance point me in the direction of that rule, book & page number please? 'Cause I don't remember anything about being able to use only one spell adder per day.

If your players are abusing magic, abuse it back. Darkness cast on a mage effectively stops him targeting high damage dealing spell. Based on your level 8 Mage with maxed out spells is going to be weaker in other points.

This is not a contest. Players don't like being blindfolded, ambushed & generally taken out of the game by decree. We are trying to find a sustainable solution without changing rules - we do NOT want the rule discussions.

You are right that maxed out chars are weaker at other points, but they are also just as bored and disinterested when those points come up, which destroys the fun of game. This is not real life, but a game. Players expect to have fun.

Our party uses long door and shadowport in combat all the time and we still have alot of difficultly with fights and traps so i dont understand the point there.....

Can you give me an example? An archer with shadowstep can send an arrow from a completely different direction every time he shoots, catch up or keep a distance to galloping horses or any other fugitive/pursuer - until the arrows do their job. In theory our archer could take out an army without ever being even discovered, let alone pursued and caught. We almost never get into melee, because it simply isn't rentable.

[jasonbrisbane]

For one you can only ever have one Spell-adder attuned to a person per 24 hour period, carring more is just extra weight. Yes you can make it a +5 and pull that trick 5 times in a day, so what i'll send twice party number in fighters at you....

Can you by any chance point me in the direction of that rule, book & page number please? 'Cause I don't remember anything about being able to use only one spell adder per day.

Hurray! I found it!

http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=3957.msg53786#msg53786

This line is most approriate, no matter how you wish to interprete Rasyrs line:

Basically only the most powerful works if it is worn/carried correctly.

A lot of these things were debated and listed on the Old forums, but that archive was lost when this forum went thru a shakeup (I believe thats right, Rasyr? Didnt you post about that somewhere?)

But That lists it in black and white. I dont know if it was listed in any book, but thats why we have houserules!

Your players may want to houserule it as allowed.

But then you HAVE to give your NPC casters the same abilities.
By Not maxxing out the monsters and NPC that your players are up against you arent giving them a challenge, they are walking over the entire campaign world.


And THAT is the REAL question you have to ask yourself and the group:

"Do they want a contest/challenge or do they want to wade through thousands of npc's every week?
Do they want an adventure that is challenging but completely do-able?"

Also remember that PC's with a modicum of intelligence can simply ask for a scroll of lifegiving, and lifekeeping from a healing clerical church. That, is if they are findnig things too challenging.

IN the end your creating adventures for the group to run and you ALL have to have fun... and it sounds like your not...

[Ecthelion]

For one you can only ever have one Spell-adder attuned to a person per 24 hour period, carring more is just extra weight. Yes you can make it a +5 and pull that trick 5 times in a day, so what i'll send twice party number in fighters at you....

Can you by any chance point me in the direction of that rule, book & page number please? 'Cause I don't remember anything about being able to use only one spell adder per day.

It's in College of Magics, pg. 109: "A spell user may only use one Spell Adder in any 24-hour period". The same is true for PP Adders btw.

Our party uses long door and shadowport in combat all the time and we still have alot of difficultly with fights and traps so i dont understand the point there.....

Can you give me an example? An archer with shadowstep can send an arrow from a completely different direction every time he shoots, catch up or keep a distance to galloping horses or any other fugitive/pursuer - until the arrows do their job. In theory our archer could take out an army without ever being even discovered, let alone pursued and caught. We almost never get into melee, because it simply isn't rentable.

In this case I'd suggest you treat Shadowstep similar to Invisibility, where "violent moves" cancel the spell. Additionally you could, as was already suggested above, require a Combat Perception roll in order to reorientate everytime a caster uses Long Door or Shadowport to move to another position.

[ZuS]

PS: can you give us a detailed example of a combat?
We will be glad to assist with where your going wrong and were in the book to look for the rules clarifications.

Ok, here's a couple concrete examples.

BREAKING A STANDOFF:
Round 0: standoff - a group of enemies are in cover, mixed melee & range weapons, including a spell caster
Round 1: mage teleports to an exposed angle of enemies, invisible.
Round 2: enemies have no time to react before mage fires off a fireball, stunning everyone
Round 3: mage teleports 100 feet away in random direction; our archers (some invisible) and a second mage (Mist Form with ability to cast) enter exposed angles with little fear of retaliation (some teleport to less accessible areas)
Round 4: mage casts invisibility (just in case); archers shoot, second mage delivers spell adder scaled Stun Cloud on top of the targets.
RESULT: 5 enemies stunned for 5+ rounds 2 seconds after combat is initiated, all enemies eliminated within 12 seconds (reload & shoot second time)

HUNTING THE HUNTERS:
After an extravagant attack on our encampment, the enemies retreat into the forest to wait our demise. We are thoroughly drugged (infiltrated & poisoned, operating at -30). One of our archers decides to capture one of the attackers:
Round 1: archer Long Doors into the forest, hides & waits (120 Stalk&Hide skill; 119 Perception skill).
Round 4: 5 enemies appear some distance away, archer prepares Sniping
Round 5: 1 enemy is dead by the first arrow
Round 6: enemies look for the archer; archer is reloading
Round 7: enemies spot the archer as he plants another arrow in the knee of the second attacker.
Round 8: archer beats all initiative roles with his impressive 30 initiative bonus (standard in our group) and teleports away before arrows are fired towards him
Round 9: archer hides and reloads
Round 10: archer observes and makes sure noone is on to him
Round 11: third enemy falls screaming and the remaining two decide to flee
Round 12: archer fails teleport with no special consequences - decides not to use Fate Points
Round 13: archer teleports to some bushes 200 feet ahead of the fleeing targets
Round 15: as targets approach, one of them falls due to an arrow lodged in his belly/groin area
Round 17: the last enemy passes the archer's hiding place and reaches the enemy camp, raising alarm just a round before an arrow comes out of his mouth and he falls dead (unmodified 99 role)
Round 18: archer checks his quiver to see if he has enough for the group of 20 enemies that are some 200 feet from him - he is down to 15 arrows. He checks his extradimensional pocket that can hold up to 50lbs - it has 80 arrows in it, spare strings and a spare bow. No problem.
RESULT: 3 minutes. One man. One desire. 8 dead or screaming enemies, later picked off one by one, rest of the enemies rode for their lives splitting up in many directions on horseback, after they realised that just simply riding away in a group is no better than running on foot.

[Rasyr-Mjolnir]

For one you can only ever have one Spell-adder attuned to a person per 24 hour period, carring more is just extra weight. Yes you can make it a +5 and pull that trick 5 times in a day, so what i'll send twice party number in fighters at you....

Can you by any chance point me in the direction of that rule, book & page number please? 'Cause I don't remember anything about being able to use only one spell adder per day.

As Jason points out, it was/is the intent that a character only be allowed to use 1 Adder (be it PP or Spell) per day. Its lack of inclusion can easily be blamed on being "overly familiar" with the material. There were just somethings that were assumed/presumed that we forgot to include (and which neither we nor our playtesters caught).

Here, to make it official
[errata=
Adders (PP & Spell)]
A character is only allowed to use a single Adder in a given day. It does not matter if this is a Spell Adder or a PP Adder. Once either has been used, the character may not use a different Adder until the following day.

The character is presumed to automatically attune (no roll required) to the most powerful Adder in his possession (that is properly worn/held - i.e. he will not attune to an Adder in his backpack). However, the player IS allowed to select which Adder the character attunes to (i.e. he may select to attune to a less powerful device because it has other abilities that he would like to access).

Devices that have multiple capabilities (i.e. are both PP & Spell Adders) are considers to be twice as powerful then a singular Adder of a given type (i.e. a +1 PP and +1 Spell Adder is more powerful than a +2 PP Adder OR a +2 Spell Adder).
[/errata]

Note: old forums were lost when we changed servers.

[Witchking20k]

My suggestion, don't limit the spells, limit the power points.  That was the first thing that jumped out at me when I started GMing Harp.  No one every ran out of PPs.  I assume the Mages maxed out their ranks and have some un-godly total at their disposal.  Thats a lot of Magic Darts!  You could either make recovery slower or instead of allowing 5/rank use 1/rank.  10 ranks + 50 from race would be 60 PPs; enough to cast a couple of poweful spells, but not go haywire really.

You could also introduce magical exhaustion, where at 75%/50%/25% PPs the mage takes -10 to Spell Casting Rolls. 

In addition, in the first round after a teleport/shadowstep etc, I would have players be able to attack or act at -30 to-50 due to disorientation.

I don't like the idea of punishing players for the rules, but quite frankly, if the lowely fighter is not having fun.........

[ZuS]

For one you can only ever have one Spell-adder attuned to a person per 24 hour period, carring more is just extra weight. Yes you can make it a +5 and pull that trick 5 times in a day, so what i'll send twice party number in fighters at you....

Can you by any chance point me in the direction of that rule, book & page number please? 'Cause I don't remember anything about being able to use only one spell adder per day.

As Jason points out, it was/is the intent that a character only be allowed to use 1 Adder (be it PP or Spell) per day. Its lack of inclusion can easily be blamed on being "overly familiar" with the material. There were just somethings that were assumed/presumed that we forgot to include (and which neither we nor our playtesters caught).

Here, to make it official
[errata=
Adders (PP & Spell)]
A character is only allowed to use a single Adder in a given day. It does not matter if this is a Spell Adder or a PP Adder. Once either has been used, the character may not use a different Adder until the following day.

The character is presumed to automatically attune (no roll required) to the most powerful Adder in his possession (that is properly worn/held - i.e. he will not attune to an Adder in his backpack). However, the player IS allowed to select which Adder the character attunes to (i.e. he may select to attune to a less powerful device because it has other abilities that he would like to access).

Devices that have multiple capabilities (i.e. are both PP & Spell Adders) are considers to be twice as powerful then a singular Adder of a given type (i.e. a +1 PP and +1 Spell Adder is more powerful than a +2 PP Adder OR a +2 Spell Adder).
[/errata]

Note: old forums were lost when we changed servers.

Wow, this ruling makes Magic Staff the most powerful spell in game. Another one for the ban list for sure.

[ZuS]

My suggestion, don't limit the spells, limit the power points.  That was the first thing that jumped out at me when I started GMing Harp.  No one every ran out of PPs.  I assume the Mages maxed out their ranks and have some un-godly total at their disposal.  Thats a lot of Magic Darts!  You could either make recovery slower or instead of allowing 5/rank use 1/rank.  10 ranks + 50 from race would be 60 PPs; enough to cast a couple of poweful spells, but not go haywire really.

You could also introduce magical exhaustion, where at 75%/50%/25% PPs the mage takes -10 to Spell Casting Rolls. 

In addition, in the first round after a teleport/shadowstep etc, I would have players be able to attack or act at -30 to-50 due to disorientation.

I don't like the idea of punishing players for the rules, but quite frankly, if the lowely fighter is not having fun.........

We do NOT change rules, because we spend hours debating the changes, so a couple of your suggestions are out. The desorientation makes sense and I personally will use it as GM if we even un-ban teleport spells, even if it only helps the tactical issues a a tiny bit.

[ZuS]

Here are a couple of other fun spells:

PINNING A DRAGON:
Round 1: the glistening skin of the reptilian underbelly passes swiftly by as the dragon flies over the tower where our level 8 mage is watching in awe. Well, watching and casting a fully scaled Magic Darts spell using a spell adder - in the same round and no more than 2 seconds after initiation of the spell, a huge cluster of ground to air missiles shaped as giant darts depart from his palm.

Round 2: The dragon winces - no resistance roll and his immense defensive bonus easily beaten by the requirement of the attack being just positive to deliver full damage, dragon takes 200 damage and is now bleeding 40 points per round - the kind of stuff that would rip a human limb from limb.

Round 3: Dragon falls to the ground, bringing down with him most of a city block.


LOGISTICS GONE WILD:
step 1: cast a scaled mobile Sanctuary with a window (optional)
step 2: enter a small army into Sanctuary
step 3: teleport bound item to target location, then empty Sanctuary
step 4: teleport back to the rest of the army and repeat from step 2

[Thom @ ICE]

In this example - Level 8 mage can have at most 27 ranks in the spell - therefore 27 PP max.  Using a base of 3PP he has 24 PP for scaling.

We'll assume your scaling is not including range because in your example the dragon doesn't seem to be concerned with the mage and he is flying just above the tower.  Also no scaling on targets since there is only 1 dragon. That leaves 24 points of scaling possible for # of darts or dart power. Based upon your description, I assume you are going full on the # of darts in order to increase bleeding - so 120 additional darts = 130 darts total.

If every dart hits then the result is 120 hits and 26 bleed.

How many darts hit?
The spell states

The target gets his DB, and the caster’s skill with this spell is his OB.

My interpretation is that the Caster's skill is after the modifiers for spellcasting are included (but since you are using the spell adder you get no scaling penalty - otherwise there would be another -120 penalty)

A rank of 27, assuming a +20 for stats.... gives +77 for ranks and +20 for stats so the total is +97
Now subtract the DB of 200 and you get -103....

Unless the spellcaster OE rolls he misses.

[Thom @ ICE]

Note - Also, if a hit is indicated, you then roll 1d10 for each set of 10 or 13d10 which will yield an average result of about 70 with 14 bleed.

Your mage will be dead before even having another chance to cast a spell and the dragon will limp away and heal the bleeding before it dies.

[Ecthelion]

Ok, here's a couple concrete examples.

Nice examples  . A few comments inline.

BREAKING A STANDOFF:
...

That's not too special IMHO. We've had similar fights with Rolemaster groups and I assume that the like is also possible with other systems - at least it was possible in Icewind Dale and other AD&D based computer RPGs.

HUNTING THE HUNTERS:
...

This variant is quite costly in PPs since every teleport of more than 100' costs at least 8 PPs and also takes two rounds to cast (unless the caster wants to cast with a penalty for quick casting). And every spell also has a chance of failing, which might mean that the caster is the target of an enemies' missile attack. So the number of enemies that can be taken down this way is probably limited by the PPs of the caster - and a bit by his luck since better all his spells work  .

[Thom @ ICE]

As for Sanctuary....
Again 8th level has a max of 27 ranks therefore scaling is limited to 27 tops...
14 base
10 mobility
that leaves 3 which probably would be used to make the sanctuary 20' radius.  1200 square feet roughly.  Yes you could cast this spell and transport 50 or so people - very uncomfortably - any more than 50 would cause issues since that only allows a 4x6 foot space to occupy during the long duration.

Now if you cast it with the Spell Adder - yes odds are that it will work.  If you cast is without....
+20 for stats, +77 for ranks -60 for scaling.... = +37
1/3 of the time the spell fails

[Ecthelion]

In this example - Level 8 mage can have at most 27 ranks in the spell - therefore 27 PP max.  Using a base of 3PP he has 24 PP for scaling.

We'll assume your scaling is not including range because in your example the dragon doesn't seem to be concerned with the mage and he is flying just above the tower.  Also no scaling on targets since there is only 1 dragon. That leaves 24 points of scaling possible for # of darts or dart power. Based upon your description, I assume you are going full on the # of darts in order to increase bleeding - so 120 additional darts = 130 darts total.

If every dart hits then the result is 120 hits and 26 bleed.

Nope. It's more reasonable to e.g. use 6 times the Increase Darts and 4 times the Increase Dart Size option. That's 70 darts for 5 hits each (max). Since only half of these are going to hit on average, the result would typically be 175 hits and 35 bleeding.

A rank of 27, assuming a +20 for stats.... gives +77 for ranks and +20 for stats so the total is +97
Now subtract the DB of 200 and you get -103....

Hm, as a power gamer I'd add Eloquence and perhaps also a Skill Specialization on the Magic Darts spell. That adds another +35 for a total OB of 132. Since the typical dragon also "only" has 165 DB we suddenly have -33 + dice roll instead. That's a good chance to hit the dragon. And I don't know whether the caster can get the +20 for suprise to his roll, since the dragon is unaware of the attack, which would improve the chances even further.

Still, since the dragon has 455 hits in the core rule book, he has quite a number of hits left until he passes out and that means some rounds to act and roast the mage. So the mage should best take at least a second such shot at the dragon before that one can attack...

Anyway, what the example shows is that, using a spell adder, a mage can offset the huge penalties normally connected to scaling up a spell with many PPs and thereby reach an very high OB. So if I were to make a ruling I'd say a Spell Adder should only provide the caster with the necessary PPs for additional spells but not remove the scaling penalties.

[Thom @ ICE]

Thanks...
Missed the cross combination....

Of course the dragon's perception of 128 should also make it very likely that the dragon would probably avoid the surprise and likely eliminate the threat before the mage is done casting... unless of course he in invisible or some other ridiculous reason.....

As for the Spell Adder not being able to impact the scaling penalty - I agree.