Topic: Tough Hide & Armor

[masque1223]

Lastly, you mentioned that your players would not have benefited from this since you have had limited combat, that's fine but what happens when they do have combat? Failing a duping check or stalk/hide may not kill you but there is always a chance of death in any combat situation and this is where a Nagazi bonus is paramount.

As I mentioned, none of my players' characters are Nagazi, even though they know of the Hide advantage.  They just weren't interested, which makes the idea someone (possibly you, I can't remember) mentioned earlier about everyone wanting to play Nagazi because of the perceived advantage of their hide ring falsely to me.

What I don't get is where you are assuming I'm using a house rule in regards to the Tough Hide talent. Nagazi, under the name Lizardmen, are in the HARP corebook, as is the Tough Hide talent.  It's in the monster section of the book under monster abilities, and the Lizardmen are one of the "monster" species that are marked as available for PCs.  There is no mention of a maneuver penalty in the description of Tough Hide, which, since it's their own skin, I wouldn't expect there to be.  So as far as I'm concerned, I'm not using a house rule, I'm going by the main rules, and all your concerns about additional books unbalancing the game are simply moot, since it's in the corebook.

[jurasketu]

Let my add my thoughts...

As far as wearing multiple regular armors - I wouldn't allow it. All plate armors and chain should actually "assume" quilting/padding or leather equivalent underneath. Quilting and leather provide the main defense against crossbow bolts and arrows. Chain does not stop missile weapons hardly at all and plate is not nearly as effective as one would think. Quilting and leather DO block arrows by deflecting the tip. The other advantage of plate or chain is the fact that the wearer can accept 'glancing' blows from hand weapons without taking an injury. So the extra leather underneath isn't as valuable in that context... So in my opinion, stacking regular armor 'types' should not be allowed since they are ALREADY stacked up. Plate armor doesn't have to mean 'metal' either - Asian armies used laminated leather as "plate" and typically is treated as being effective as such in miniature battle rules. So 'extra thick' leather is really just 'plate' with all the maneuver penalties just like plate. So its 'plate' with different flavor text. Same with extra thick chain mail - so its really just 'plate' with the same maneuver restrictions.

But natural armor doesn't suffer from any of the arguments above. It really should be additive. SO.. I would allow the full armor bonus in addition to the natural armor for tough hide (but losing any quickness bonus due to the attendant maneuver penalties as pointed out by other posters).

Wasn't there also an argument about spell armor (Steel Skin, Tree Bark Skin, etc)? I would allow those to stack as well with regular armor but not with each other.

Robin

[jasonbrisbane]

Pat, you have good arguements, I just happen to disagree, thats all.. 

And in the first game - no-one have ever had the opportunity to play a Lizardman character before (I dont think DnD has the race and I dont know of any in RM or any other game system).
So when it came down to playing a Human/Rhona/Mablung with the std abilities that they are aware of, or a Lizardman who can get an additonal +20Db they went with that. - It wasnt an overwhelming factor, just a bonus that helped make their decision a little easier.

And IIRC we had a few warrior mages and such in that mix - not all were fighters. (Actually I cant rememebr any straight fighters - and since any character can learn any skills I think that you were implying that some people took professions with Combat as a Favored Category to get cheaper )

And I agree with Fidoric -I dont see why some professions would get the bonus and others wont. But,  I dont think that it will overwhelm the game. But if your worried about it, I'll just add a level or two to all combatants. Dont worry, I'll let the party know that it was you who insisted on it! 

PS: All monsters in HARP and M:AFG are sample monsters. With the stats and Racial abilities all monsters have the ability to be ANY level - it simply requires the GM to create the creature ( L1-3 - A group of adolescent trolls looking for their mommy?    ). Remember: All characters have to gain levels the same way, including monsters.

Hope that helps.

[Pat]

What I don't get is where you are assuming I'm using a house rule in regards to the Tough Hide talent. Nagazi, under the name Lizardmen, are in the HARP corebook, as is the Tough Hide talent.  It's in the monster section of the book under monster abilities, and the Lizardmen are one of the "monster" species that are marked as available for PCs.  There is no mention of a maneuver penalty in the description of Tough Hide, which, since it's their own skin, I wouldn't expect there to be. 

I agree with you comment above. If you read the previous quotes you will see that I said:

 "There can not be additional maneuver penalties for having Tough Skin unless Nagazi are required to develop an Armour skill to walk around naked."

The house rule I am talking about is whether Tough Hide stacks with Armour or not. Since there is no defined answer or ruling in HARP core or suppliments, all decisions made by GM's (yes or no) are house rulings.

[Pat]

Wasn't there also an argument about spell armor (Steel Skin, Tree Bark Skin, etc)? I would allow those to stack as well with regular armor but not with each other.

I'd have fun in your game 

Off the top of my head (say 6th level) I'd by 4 levels of fighter and 2 of mage. The ranks I would put into mage would be: 20 ranks Rune Mastery and 20 ranks Mage Armour. (I would also have invested heavily in Runes throughout my career.)

During character down time, I would spend my time writing runes of Mage Armour plate mail with Rune Mastery (Rune Mastery up to 20 pps). Say have about 20-30 of these rune pages.

1st round of combat my plate mailed, wall shielded (and, why not, Nagazi) reads the plate mail rune.

His DB is: +60 (plate) +60 (mage armour) +40 (wall shield) +20 (nagazi). He now has a 180 DB for 40 rounds and (if you use ML damage adjustment like we do) any damage is as plate mail. (And this is without masterwork, special alloy or magical enhancements.) 

[Pat]

And in the first game - no-one have ever had the opportunity to play a Lizardman character before (I dont think DnD has the race and I dont know of any in RM or any other game system).
So when it came down to playing a Human/Rhona/Mablung with the std abilities that they are aware of, or a Lizardman who can get an additonal +20Db they went with that. - It wasnt an overwhelming factor, just a bonus that helped make their decision a little easier.

But it's funny that since we house ruled that the +20DB doesn't stack with armour the Nagazi as a race has barely been seen since that first outing. (I remember playing one when I was a Monk but that was it and that was to get the +20DB and the Soft Leather adjustment for ML crits.)

And I agree with Fidoric -I dont see why some professions would get the bonus and others wont. But,  I dont think that it will overwhelm the game. But if your worried about it, I'll just add a level or two to all combatants. Dont worry, I'll let the party know that it was you who insisted on it! 

I know you're saying this a bit tounge in cheek but it's still true to some extent. To have a challenging encounter you need to base your foes on the players abilities and +20DB does lead to having to create higher OB monsters to keep the challenge alive.

To give examples (from HARP core) a lvl 2 Giant Ant has an OB of 70, lvl 2 Giant Beetle 70OB, lvl 2 Giant Wasp 70OB. To increase this to 90 (to counter act the +20DB of Nagazi) you need to go to lvl 5 monsters. For example: Giant Ape 95OB, Centaur 90OB, Gargoyle 85OB, Class 2 undead 90OB etc.

So going by HARPs own encounter system, the Nagazi bonus +20DB is the equivilent of 2-3 levels. (Or at least it would if we allow Tough Hide to stack with Natural Armour.)

[jurasketu]

Well... Some further thoughts then...

To actually have a scaled spell in a Rune - you actually need the Rune Mastery Spell - and so you would need 20 ranks in Rune Mastery Spell instead (no biggie - but an important point).

Wall shield? You allow adventurers to 'carry' those?  

But seriously what's the big deal?

Character with quickness bonus of say 10 - has a DB of 20 without armor - with chain or plate mail the quickness bonus goes away. Then if the character has 15 ranks in Boost Quickness, you can get +20 quickness boost. So then the character has a 30 QU which yields a +60 DB. With 19 ranks, +70 DB.

So....

Natural Quickness (Undamped by armor)           +10 (DB+20)
Boost Quickness (23 ranks just for fun)            +30 (DB+60)
Mage Armor (20 ranks)                                  +60 (DB+60)
Target Shield (no casting penalties)                 +20
DB 160 AND the INITIATIVE every round.

No DPs wasted on Armor Skill. Unarmored character can climb, swing from ropes, swim, cast spells (bladeturn, minor healing, deflections, etc), mount/unmount horses, change weapons, kiss the princess upon rescue, eat, drink, use the bathroom in a sanitary fashion, etc.

A character in FULL plate (just a breastplate - sure) can't do anything like pull out a scroll quickly (or anything else except shuffle around and fight). Nothing against that - sometimes a tank is useful or required... Especially if that's all you've got.

And I'd still allow it a character to do that given that its no more impressive than the Boost Quickness/Mage Armor combo anyway. And its logically consistent to me.

Admittedly, I don't use the Martial Law charts. I prefer Hack N Slash so the armor 'adjustments' don't matter to me. I prefer combat to be brutish and short I suppose.

No adventurers wear plate mail (or any armor actually) in my campaign. Casting spells at will is more fun and we have significant travel and interaction in urban/rural environments with weather (heat, rain, etc). So plate mail is inconvenient a lot of the time - Boost Quickness and Mage Armor[Steel Skin, Tree Skin] much more convenient and versatile.

My characters FEAR magic, the ambush and numbers.... For good reason... DPs are spent on Perception, Stamina RR, Will RR and Magic RR. Offense and defense are luxuries...

Robin

[Hawkwind]

And in the first game - no-one have ever had the opportunity to play a Lizardman character before (I dont think DnD has the race and I dont know of any in RM or any other game system).

Jason, D&D 3.5 certainly had official rules for playing Lizardmen as a PC race - it was part of the whole ECL (effective character level) rules. IIRC Lizardmen had an ECL of +1, which meant that a first level lizardman character was the equivalent of a 2nd level character of a "normal" race.

Previous editions of D&D had unofficial rules for playing lizardmen characters - the race has been in D&D since the original rules.

Hawk

[jurasketu]

I played a Saurig (aka Lizardman) in DnD back in 1980 - it was great fun when I actually enjoyed playing Chaotic Evil characters. Made it to 7th level I recall before being killed in some horrific fashion...

[jasonbrisbane]

But it's funny that since we house ruled that the +20DB doesn't stack with armour the Nagazi as a race has barely been seen since that first outing. (I remember playing one when I was a Monk but that was it and that was to get the +20DB and the Soft Leather adjustment for ML crits.)

Yes but all *NEW* things get played first. We also had the argument about the Madu but who has one since then? No-one and we've had about 4-6 characters (IIRC - offhand - Im at work and dont have ANY notes). (OK, I"VE had 4-6 characters since then ! LOL!)

All new toys get played with first and then the cool factor wears off and people play what they really enjoy.

I envisage half the party playing Gryphons solely because I'm allowing them to be played - but I'm also allowing Halflings so the total of *NEW* pc's will be comprised of those two races...

Also, the nagzazi doesnt need to get Armour skill for his natural armour.
I thought in the above post it was specified that only when the characer wears other armour does the Natural armour accrue the armour maneuver penalty - as a penalty for trying to stack multiple armours... Sort of like trying to stack multipl levels of plate mail.
Of course I'd be inclined to double the maneuver penalty of the  secondary armour and increase penalties exponentially for each armour level.

ie:
Nagazi  = 0 (normal)
Nagazi wearing soft leather = +20 (Natural Armour rubbed by other amour) + (20*2) Soft leather at penalty)
Nagazi wearing plate and soft leather = +20 (Natural Armour rubbed by other amour) + (20*2) Soft leather at penalty) + (120*3) plate at extra penalty.

Sure you CAN do it, but the penalty is too great... you end up like the michellin man.... no matter what skin you have the extra layers keep inhibiting movement.

[Pat]

Well... Some further thoughts then...

To actually have a scaled spell in a Rune - you actually need the Rune Mastery Spell - and so you would need 20 ranks in Rune Mastery Spell instead (no biggie - but an important point).

20 ranks Rune Mastery and 20 ranks Mage Armour. (I would also have invested heavily in Runes throughout my career.)

Yea...I thought I said I'd have 20 ranks in Rune Mastery...

So....

Natural Quickness (Undamped by armor)           +10 (DB+20)
Boost Quickness (23 ranks just for fun)            +30 (DB+60)
Mage Armor (20 ranks)                                  +60 (DB+60)
Target Shield (no casting penalties)                 +20
DB 160 AND the INITIATIVE every round.

OK let's see...

Your character needs to cast Boost quickness with a penalty of -80 (20 x pp casting penalty) or, if in one round, (5 rounds to 1) a further -40 penalty for -120.

Futher, to cast Mage Armour (60DB), would be at the same negatives so either, the character would be casting spells for a large amount of time (and possibly lose that spell if they got hit) or be at huge negatives to cast and (more than likely fail casting).

Unless you're saying that your character has Rune Mastery (30 ranks) so that he can rune cast Boost Quickness (23 pps). Even so that is still a minimum of 2 rounds to read each rune and your DB is still 20 less.

Admittedly, I don't use the Martial Law charts. I prefer Hack N Slash so the armor 'adjustments' don't matter to me. I prefer combat to be brutish and short I suppose.

No adventurers wear plate mail (or any armor actually) in my campaign. Casting spells at will is more fun and we have significant travel and interaction in urban/rural environments with weather (heat, rain, etc). So plate mail is inconvenient a lot of the time - Boost Quickness and Mage Armor[Steel Skin, Tree Skin] much more convenient and versatile.

Our group was much the same prior to ML and Damage adjustments. Fighter characters were a lost cause and everyone had some sort of magic. That is one of the reasons we adopted ML adjustments, because it brought the fighter back as a worthwhile character. Also, (prior to ML) the casting penalties weren't worth the DB bonus you get (and the quickness penalties you received) for armour.

 

[Pat]

Also, the nagzazi doesnt need to get Armour skill for his natural armour.
I thought in the above post it was specified that only when the characer wears other armour does the Natural armour accrue the armour maneuver penalty - as a penalty for trying to stack multiple armours... Sort of like trying to stack multipl levels of plate mail.
Of course I'd be inclined to double the maneuver penalty of the  secondary armour and increase penalties exponentially for each armour level.

ie:
Nagazi  = 0 (normal)
Nagazi wearing soft leather = +20 (Natural Armour rubbed by other amour) + (20*2) Soft leather at penalty)
Nagazi wearing plate and soft leather = +20 (Natural Armour rubbed by other amour) + (20*2) Soft leather at penalty) + (120*3) plate at extra penalty.

Sure you CAN do it, but the penalty is too great... you end up like the michellin man.... no matter what skin you have the extra layers keep inhibiting movement.

But, again, this is a house rule that is up to all Gm's to accept or disgard at their leisure. So, instead of house ruling maneuver penalties for wearing armour on top of armour (which I originally only posted to make a point and not as a serious proposal) why not house rule that Tough Hide and Armour don't stack?

I keep coming back to the same point to drive home my opinion but here it is again...

A giant in Plate Mail. It's one thing for PC's to have armour stack with Tough Hide but those same PC's will be screaming blue murder the first time a giant with plate mail rocks up (remembering that armour DOES NOT increase the level of a monster. A lvl 1 fighter in plate mail is still lvl 1. A lvl 10 or 20 giant in plate mail is still lvl 10 or 20.) This monster will now have +60DB (maybe slightly less for maneuver penalties) above normal, have plate modified adjustments (if ML is in play) and will be devastating to a similar level party.

[masque1223]

I'd still allow the natural and worn armor to stack.  The being with Tough Hide isn't going to flay himself before putting on armor.  YMMV.

[Pat]

I'd still allow the natural and worn armor to stack.  The being with Tough Hide isn't going to flay himself before putting on armor.  YMMV.

I think the point may have been missed. I don't have a problem with Tough Hide creatures wearing armour, I just don't think the DB bonus should stack. I have no problem what so ever with a Nagazi, Giant or other Tough Hide creature wearing armour (and of course they have ranks in the armour skill), I just think that the highest level of armour is the only DB (or armour adjustment in ML) that applies. So a Nagazi who puts on chain mail would get (only) DB 40 from armour and not DB 60 (armour + tough hide).

[jasonbrisbane]

Level 1 Giant in Plate mail will have a LOT lower OB than a Level 10 Giant in plate due to the Armour Negatives to Weapons.

So while he will take a long time to take down he will look like the Atypical DnD-Lesser-giant-with-a-club.
Clumsy and unweildy. He will have to roll open ended to do any serious damage and thus not Really be an issue for the PC's - heck one PC could tank hm whilst the rest attack from range or surround and get flank and rear bonuses, taking him down quicker.

A level 10 giant, well he has to have a bigger bonus doesnt he 
I see the same issue with fighters (PC) of higher levels. If OB increases each level then there will be a point at which their DB will simply be stagnant whilst the enemies will get tougher due to their higher OB's...

Thats why I believe Natural, Magic & armour stacks.
At higher levels, PC's would find items that allow Mage armour or Bracers of defense (magical) bonuses.
With your system all these items would be useless.

I (I will do this but cant right now - being at work and all!) would create  a level 10 giant with Plate armor and see what other skills he has/can afford. I think you will find he wont be able to live except with others helping him. He wont have the skills to survive in a wild giant society (perception to spot people attacking the giant? RR Stamina Max to resist Stun? PLus full amour and OB and END skills, not to mention any foraging skills when he cant find game to kill to eat).  And lets face it - can you REALLY see a giant society caterring to the whim and desire for One single entity? More than likely the chief would kill him at level 1/2/3 for being too big for his boots (or his naturally armoured feet)!

PS: I also think that while a Nagazi with chain is possible, that it wouldnt happen as they are beneath wearing armour - they resolve differences through debate and heated discussions, not barbaric ways such as weapons! - Again I think your Min-maxing the system, not taking the race in the spirit that it is intended....
The same goes for the Giant oo. You need to consider the full range of skills and not worry so much about Min maxing the skills. Whilst it MAY be possible to create a Giant with the full bonuses to OB and DB, I dont think it would actually be a "real" NPC: only a GM-Monster-for-throwing-at-the-PC's.

I for one wouldnt do this as I dont think it makes good Game Mastering (Remember three certain dragons and a Greater Demon Lord I made in one cave for a RM game we had? Talk about Min/maxing!) I've learnt to only create games in the spirit to which they were intended.

I hope this helps.

[Pat]

Level 1 Giant in Plate mail will have a LOT lower OB than a Level 10 Giant in plate due to the Armour Negatives to Weapons.

I think I may have mentioned this previously but their aren't any lvl 1 giants. A lesser giant (the minimum) is lvl 10 so it's OB will only be minimally affected by armour.

I see the same issue with fighters (PC) of higher levels. If OB increases each level then there will be a point at which their DB will simply be stagnant whilst the enemies will get tougher due to their higher OB's...

Which actually argues my point. Since diminishing returns set in at a certain level, you're right OB and DB will eventually stagnate. This means that the +20 DB from Tough Hide becomes supremely valuable as a racial ability since, at high levels, the +20 could be the same as a fighter investing 20 ranks (ranks 31 onwards +1 bonus) to his OB.

Thats why I believe Natural, Magic & armour stacks.
At higher levels, PC's would find items that allow Mage armour or Bracers of defense (magical) bonuses.
With your system all these items would be useless.

No they wouldn't be useless, far from it. At higher levels I'd imagine that many to most characters will become multi class and have some form of magic use. Bracers, Mage Armour, Magical items become very important since a lot of players will look to reducing their casting penalty. Also, fighter types will look at reducing the maneauver penalty of armour so that they get an instant OB boost.

I (I will do this but cant right now - being at work and all!) would create  a level 10 giant with Plate armor and see what other skills he has/can afford. I think you will find he wont be able to live except with others helping him.

Lesser giant has Strength +15 Agility and Quickness +0. So he needs a max skill of 80 to minimise armour penalties for normal plate. So he needs a total of 65 in ranks to achieve this (which is 18 ranks). That would be less than 2 ranks per level from creation. I'd think very achievable and not a huge drain on DPs. Also, with a +0 to quickness, it's DB would not be any less due to Quickness being penalised.

And lets face it - can you REALLY see a giant society caterring to the whim and desire for One single entity? More than likely the chief would kill him at level 1/2/3 for being too big for his boots (or his naturally armoured feet)!

And the answer is yes! According to HARP core Lesser Giants aren't stupid, they are "slightly less intelligent than humans" while Greater Giants are as intelligent as humans and are spell casters.

PS: I also think that while a Nagazi with chain is possible, that it wouldnt happen as they are beneath wearing armour - they resolve differences through debate and heated discussions, not barbaric ways such as weapons! - Again I think your Min-maxing the system, not taking the race in the spirit that it is intended....

Actually this comment goes against everything I've spoken for previously. Firstly, I don't have a problem (as I've repeatedly said) with Nagazi or any Tough Hide creature wearing Armour (whether they would or wouldn't is immaterial.) I just don't think the DB bonuses should stack with armour.

Secondly, I am trying to ensure that the system is not min/maxed. I would greatly prefer to see players take a Nagazi because they like the character concept and not for the DB bonus. If anything I'm fighting against min/maxing and (trying) to ensure that the Nagazi character is played because someone wants to play it and not because of perceived benefits. Again, if anything, I'm trying to take the race in the spirit of intention while you are arguing for a min/maxing culture.

I've learnt to only create games in the spirit to which they were intended.

Which I agree with. The trouble with "spirit" and "intention" is that they are open to interpretation. My intent on this subject has always to create a balanced race that fits in with the current races. I just don't believe that stacking armour with tough hide achieves this intention 

[Fidoric]

My point of view is that armor and tough hide both act in the way of a weapon trying to reach your inside, they should stack. If a weapon succeed in going through a piece of armor, then it will have to go through that hard skin before dealing significant damage.
So the same blow delivered to a Nagazi will have less impact upon his health than on a Human because his organs are better shielded by his tough hide.

[masque1223]

My point of view is that armor and tough hide both act in the way of a weapon trying to reach your inside, they should stack. If a weapon succeed in going through a piece of armor, then it will have to go through that hard skin before dealing significant damage.
So the same blow delivered to a Nagazi will have less impact upon his health than on a Human because his organs are better shielded by his tough hide.

Exactly what I was going to say.

[jurasketu]

Pat-

Oh. Sorry I misread the Rune Mastery. My humble apology.

OK let's see...

Your character needs to cast Boost quickness with a penalty of -80 (20 x pp casting penalty) or, if in one round, (5 rounds to 1) a further -40 penalty for -120.

Futher, to cast Mage Armour (60DB), would be at the same negatives so either, the character would be casting spells for a large amount of time (and possibly lose that spell if they got hit) or be at huge negatives to cast and (more than likely fail casting).

Unless you're saying that your character has Rune Mastery (30 ranks) so that he can rune cast Boost Quickness (23 pps). Even so that is still a minimum of 2 rounds to read each rune and your DB is still 20 less.

Spell Adder +2/4 to cast both spells without penalty. Almost no chance of failure. Sure. Rune Mastery the spells (or better yet use a Thaumaturge to do Charge Item on a ring from CoM). The nice thing about Boost Quickness is that its a 'target'. The mage can do Boost Quickness on non-spell casters. So, a stack of spell runed Boost Quickness scrolls would be valuable. But all that is beside the point - I was just illustrating. Plus you were using a Rune to cast Mage Armor - which I think wouldn't even be possible if you were wearing Plate Armor due to the problem of getting out a scroll while wearing armored gloves.

I understand your take on ML for 'gaming' reasons. But generally I'm unimpressed by any system where an armored Troll wielding a 100-kg axe doesn't produce a kill if it connects with a target. It is why I never liked DnD very much.

And honestly, I wouldn't have a problem if a GM said Mage Armor (and its kin) doesn't stack with natural armor (makes perfect sense) NOR regular armor (the regular armor disrupts the magical field or something). Perfectly sensible. BUT natural armor should  stack with additional armor - otherwise chain mail and plate mail shouldn't work (they are BOTH 'stacked armor' by design). As I pointed out earlier - chain mail WITHOUT quilting does NOT stop heavy arrows/bolts at all - zilch, nada. Plate mail without quilting isn't much better as the French discovered a few times...

Robin

[Right Wing Wacko]

Pat,

Ahh... Are you talking about adjustments due to hit location?
I thought you were talking about the armor adjustments to hits, bleeding, and stun.

I have never used the adjustments due to location (from H&S or ML). I need to look at my books to be sure we are talking about two different things, but, alas, I am at work right now