Topic: Tough Hide & Armor

[Pat]

Another reason I don't think Tough Hide should stack with Natural Armour is this.

If a Nagazi can wear plate over his tough hide and get the bonus from both, why can't my fighter get a suit of plate mail to go over soft leather armour? The maneuver penalties for each are:
Plate min -20 max -100
Soft Leather min 0 max -20

So added together they would be min -20 max -120. The minimum maneuver penalty has not changed so if I can get my Armour skill in excess of 100 I can get rid of all possible penalties and wear 2 suits of armour.

Is the example silly..probably yes. But the example equates to the effect of stacking tough hide with armour.

[Fidoric]

And why not take the problem in the other way. Consider that the tough hide makes wearing an underpadding useless. That way, your Nagazi can wear a full plate with no padding. His DB is that of a full plate with less MM penalties. A full padding is equivalent to a suit of soft leather so maybe this 'light' plate armor could have the max penalties reduced by 20.
Having quilt and tough hide can cause overheating problems and can be translated by increased MMP penalties ?

[janpmueller]

I must agree with Pat. No more instant-death criticals for Nagazi... Adjusting the critical is a very powerful thing to do.

Maybe the tough hide advantage should be changed altogether? I thought about what tough hide means (hard to hurt) and how DB represents several things (hard to hit, hard to hurt). While adjusting the critical by -20 works with the correct variable (critical representing how much the blow hurts/ damages), it's too strong IMO.

How about rephrasing the talent altogether?

Tough Hide
Reduce all bleeding the PC suffers by 1.

Tough Hide
Reduce any hits the character suffers by 5.

I know it's a totally different talent with both versions, but I wanted to throw it in. Bye,

Jan

[Thos]

I personally think that having a player race with tough hide is a bad idea from the start. I don't use Cyradon, nor would I allow one of my players to play a Nagazi without trading out the tough hide talent for something else. I do think that it's going to be like pulling teeth trying to figure out an option that pleases everyone on this one. I will be interested to continue following this thread to see what else people come up with. Best of luck, guys!

[Right Wing Wacko]

To me this would make tough hide more powerful not less. If the reduction comes off of the critical then the maximum critical received from a medium attack would be 80. (100-20 for tough hide)

I don't think this would work 

OOOF!

Didn't think of that...
You are exactly right... it won't work...

[Right Wing Wacko]

What about only allowing half DB from Tough Hide and increasing the MM penalty for characters wearing armor with Tough Hide?
I don't really know what a fair amount of MM penalty would be though...

I can think of no better way to adjudicate this situation...

[jasonbrisbane]

I think if you are going to allow the stacking of armour then you must at least double the MM penalties.
And since moving in 2 suits of soft leather (or Rigid) is going to be very difficult (but not impossible but you'll never get a fluid motion happening) then you should make the Min MM penalty for a second suit of Soft leather 1/2 the Max MM penalty. A third suit would have a Min MM 3/4 of the Max MM penalty, etc (making it exponentially more difficult to stack on armour AKA Michelin Man).

To me this would work well, discourage the stacking of armour and keep the balance right.

[jasonbrisbane]

Hi,

Sorry to start this argument up again but I think I have found the flaw in Pats well thought out idea....

We dont use the Armour Penalty to AG & QU skills!

So whilst the Troll in Full plate would have MIN 20 max 120 whilst wearing fullplate he needs ot have the skills to manuever in armour. And the Armour penalty applies to his OB's too making him slower to hit things (lesser OB).
A Level 10 troll - no problem - he needs to spend ranks inarmour to compensate but will still be 20 points below a l1o troll without the plate - but he has the higher DB to compensate...
A level 1 troll wont have ANYWhere NEAR the ability of the L10 troll - he can only get 6 ranks in armour meanign he is not likely to get anywhere near the ability to offset the 120 armour maneuver penalty.

With regards to the Nagazi debate:
The nagazi with Soft Leather (+20DB) can wear soft leather(+20) and get a +40. \
But he needs the Armour skill at +40 to get that ability with No penalty to his AG/QU skills.
He could wear plate and get a "Plate+20" maneuver but he needs the extra Armour skills to offset the additional 20 that Soft leather penalises.

No matter which way you look at it, the person is putting points into the Armour skill that could go on Endurance or Weapon skills (or Resistance:Stamina!!!)


So when you tak eall the rules combined:
- Armour can be stacked but natural armour incurs the manuever penalty for that armour + the armour penalty for the other armour COMBINED.
- All Armour penalties are applied to all skills with AG or QU, including OB skills

Then I think you will end up with a well rounded game.

I'll try it with my next adventure and see how it goes (Witht he Basic HARP core rules combat, not the Martial Law rules.

Thanks.

[Pat]

A level 1 troll wont have ANYWhere NEAR the ability of the L10 troll - he can only get 6 ranks in armour meanign he is not likely to get anywhere near the ability to offset the 120 armour maneuver penalty.

Except that there aren't any level 1 trolls. The minimum level is a lesser Troll which is a level 5 character. (Therefore a possible 18 ranks in Armour)

With regards to the Nagazi debate:
The nagazi with Soft Leather (+20DB) can wear soft leather(+20) and get a +40. \
But he needs the Armour skill at +40 to get that ability with No penalty to his AG/QU skills.
He could wear plate and get a "Plate+20" maneuver but he needs the extra Armour skills to offset the additional 20 that Soft leather penalises.

No matter which way you look at it, the person is putting points into the Armour skill that could go on Endurance or Weapon skills (or Resistance:Stamina!!!)

I don't think that's quite right. A Nagazi does not have to develop ranks in Armour for it's +20 natural hide so it would only need to cover the min/max manuever penalty for Soft Leather (as in the example above.) He would not need to get his armour skill to +40 but only to the maximum maneuver penalty of -20 to remove any penalties to quickness and agility.

There can not be additional maneuver penalties for having Tough Skin unless Nagazi are required to develop an Armour skill to walk around naked. 

Even if GM's decide to penalise Nagazi for wearing armour by increasing the maneuver penalty, 3-4 ranks will cover the -20 to 0 maneuver penalty for +20 to DB. (Remember +20 to DB is the equivilent of Instinctive Defence, a 30 dp talent. 3-4 ranks would cost only about 6-8 dps.)

So when you tak eall the rules combined:
- Armour can be stacked but natural armour incurs the manuever penalty for that armour + the armour penalty for the other armour COMBINED.
- All Armour penalties are applied to all skills with AG or QU, including OB skills

I disagree. I don't believe that Armour and Natural Armour should stack. As listed above, the costs involved (even with your rule changes for maneuver penalties) are too low and create an imbalanced gaming character. (Remember in our first Cyradon gaming session, 4 out of 5 characters were Nagazi for just this reason.)

Nagazi without armour stacking are still powerful characters. They have good stat bonuses and the Tough Hide is still very useful.

1) You will always have a minimum of Soft Leather armour (equivilent) when sleeping, swimming, climbing etc.
2) There is no casting penalty for Tough Hide so mages, warrior mages, clerics etc that are Nagazi will always have +20 to DB for no casting cost.
3) You do not need to invest ranks in armour skills to get the benefit of Soft Leather armour through Tough Hide.
4) It is supremely useful for Monk characters since Tough Hide would not effect their Chi abilities, especially Chi defence.

Why make a powerful talent more so by making it stack with armour? And, as I've mentioned before, if it's allowed for Nagazi the Tough Hide monsters will have a field day when there DB is increased by 60 (plate mail) or more (magic or alloyed plate mail). Ouch....Talk about opening Pandora's box.

[Fidoric]

Has somebody ever thought of changing that racial ability for another one ?
If someone is not willing to accept that Nagazi are naturally tougher than humans and that wearing an armor won't make them lose their natural resilience to strikes, then maybe it would be better for those who find it unbalancing to discard the Natural Armor talent and replace it by heat resistance or anything else rather than trying to downgrade it.

[Pat]

I don't have a problem with Tough Hide as a player ability, per se, I just think that if we have it stack with armour then it becomes too powerful. Imagine a fighter with Plate mail, Tough hide, Instinctive defence and a wall shield. That's a base 140 DB without magic or superior alloys.

I believe that Tough hide is a useful ability for Monks and Magic users that suffer greatly in hand to hand combat, especially if Martial Law damage adjustments are in use. I just don't think that fighters, who already have the best armour, shields etc need a further +20 to DB from Tough hide.

IMO if we allow Tough hide to stack with armour there will be a stampede of Nagazi fighters. If we don't allow Tough Hide to stack with armour (or with spells such as Mage Armour, Tree Skin etc) then Nagazi will remain reasonably powerful characters (especially at lower levels) but will be limited in their appeal.

I personally feel that if Tough Hide is allowed to stack with armour then it will take min/maxing to a whole new level and, instead of the traditional Gryx or Dwarf fighter, there will end up being Nagazi one dimensional fighters designed, not for game play, but for the +20 bonus to DB.

[Fidoric]

Imagine a fighter with Plate mail, Tough hide, Instinctive defence and a wall shield. That's a base 140 DB without magic or superior alloys.

That's true, but without stacking he would still have a +120 DB, and that's not much less.

I just don't think that fighters, who already have the best armour, shields etc need a further +20 to DB from Tough hide.

Then again, I agree with you, a fighter in heavy armor doesn't need additional DB but I can't see why less combat-oriented professions should benefit from this and not the specialist.

Besides, if the player want to build their character only on that (non negligible) advantage, they should think about drawbacks as well. Their Nagazi won't meld well in most environment. And their advantage is only in combat. According to the level of combat in the campaign, it can almost be nullified. OTOH, you can imagine that newcomers from Tarahir could have prejudices against this people for example and so give them hefty penalties for social interactions...

Eventually, there are lots of means to optimize DB. Stack high agility and quickness, buy instinctive defense and swashbuckler, wear a suit of soft leather and maximize your skill in a defensive weapon style (shielding weapon...) with a good parrying weapon (sai...). AT first level you can easily top 100 or 120 DB. And that's without magical aid. That is why I think this +20 DB to Nagazi, though potent, is not overwhelming.

[masque1223]

IMO if we allow Tough hide to stack with armour there will be a stampede of Nagazi fighters.

I don't apply any penalties for the Tough Hide, and the only Nagazi in my campaign so far is an NPC I created.  It is certainly an advantage in combat, but my players at least are focused on more than just combat advantage.  I think you might have a lower estimate of the average HARP player than me.  I'd expect that kind of behavior amongst the majority (but not all) of RPGA members I've met, and I make it a point not to play with people like that.  I dunno, YMMV, but I've often played games where characters are unbalanced by the numbers, but they tend to equal out when you consider that the guy who may suck in combat probably has other areas he excels at, and those are his times to shine, whereas the combat monster (and there's usually one or two) isn't useful when there isn't fighting going on. 

[Pat]

Imagine a fighter with Plate mail, Tough hide, Instinctive defence and a wall shield. That's a base 140 DB without magic or superior alloys.

That's true, but without stacking he would still have a +120 DB, and that's not much less.

[

It's the equivilent of an armour type or the equivilent of the Instinctive defence talent. That's pretty impresive for a racial bonus. When you consider that most combat orientated characters (generally) get Instinctive Defence (and it's a recommended talent in Martial Law for fighters) then you'd have to say that most players consider +20DB to be a real advantage.

Then again, I agree with you, a fighter in heavy armor doesn't need additional DB but I can't see why less combat-oriented professions should benefit from this and not the specialist.

I guess it depends greatly on whether you use ML damage adjustments or not. In our game Tough Hide has the related effect of it's armour bonus so, Tough Hide +20 is Soft Leather adjustment. While this is not a great deal to fighters it can make a great difference to unarmoured or lightly armoured characters such as Monks, Mages etc. Plus fighter characters will still get advantages by being a Nagazi as listed previously such as always having some form of armour when sleeping, climbing, swimming etc.

[Pat]

IMO if we allow Tough hide to stack with armour there will be a stampede of Nagazi fighters.

I don't apply any penalties for the Tough Hide, and the only Nagazi in my campaign so far is an NPC I created.  It is certainly an advantage in combat, but my players at least are focused on more than just combat advantage.  I think you might have a lower estimate of the average HARP player than me.   

But don't you prefer a gaming system where there is a reasonable balance in place rather than having to house rule to create a level playing field?

I think that can be one of the problems of having additional books added into a system, in that they probably haven't got everything quite right.

Examples I can think of off the top of my head are:
The Madu as a weapon.
The damage adjustment system in ML being a little too generous.
Tough Hide, does it have damage adjustment or not.
Dirty Fighting as a skill that can not be defended against. I would have preferred if it was a RR roll verses Perception than an all or nothing ability that can kill any monster or character in 1 hit because it doesn't have damage caps.

Just off the top of my head...

[Right Wing Wacko]

Pat,
What makes the damage adjustment system in ML too generous?
Curious is all...

[masque1223]

But don't you prefer a gaming system where there is a reasonable balance in place rather than having to house rule to create a level playing field?

Two things:
1.) I don't consider the Nagazi hide to be unreasonably unbalancing, for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.
2.) Even though I don't think the Nagazi hide itself is overly unbalancing, I'm not particularly concerned with balance.  One of my favorite games is D6 Star Wars.  No matter how you slice it, Characters that are Barabels, Wookiees, or other big strong species are going to far outpace human or various other "normal" alien characters when it comes to combat.  But just because they have the advantage on paper, doesn't necessarily mean that their characters are going to dominate the game, and the less combat savvy characters are going to appreciate having a bruiser who can cover them while they are trying to say, hack a door lock or something. 

I don't want characters to necessarily be balanced in all the same areas at all times.  I like a mix of character types that usually have one or two areas that they excel at, and what they're not so good at, other characters are.  As I develop the story, it's generally going to happen that each character is going to get their big hero moment, but that doesn't necessarily have to do with combat.  I just got back a few hours ago from running my session, and there wasn't a single combat round tonight, it was all about diplomacy and investigation (using the "M is for Murder" seed in the Cyradon book).  Lots of Perception checks, lots of use of the Influence and Subterfuge skill groups, and everyone had a great time.  If we had a Nagazi character (although I did get to introduce my NPC Nagazi), his Tough Hide wouldn't have been any kind of advantage at all.  Nor was the +5 to DB AND OB that the dwarves and Gryx get from Dense Musculature.  The +25 for Stalking and Hiding that the part gnome ranger gets from her Natural Camouflage was a factor, however, but since it helped her follow people and gather intel, no one complained.

The Nagazi in the city (in my game, at any rate) are primarily merchants and tradesmen anyway, they're there to make some money off the refugees if possible.  If they're going to get into heavy combat, which they're not really interested in, it's most likely going to be while defending themselves against Nagah or Nagaral, in which case the Hide means nothing, since the other guys have it too. 

For me, it's not about unbalancing combat advantages, because if I'm concerned with balance at all, it's the balance my players experience in their fun.  I seem to be doing fine with that.  I get some enjoyment out of the simulation aspect, myself, which is why I don't enforce any maneuver penalties on the Nagazi for their hide, nor would I for any species with that talent, as it just doesn't make sense to me.  I understand why leather armor has those penalties, because that's tanned and hardened and worn like clothes, and if it's going to be effective, it should be a bit stiff, limiting mobility a little.  When it's skin ON a living thing, it's a lot more flexible and supple.  To give a morbid example, if I ran around naked, (which no one wants to see) I'd expect to be at my most unrestrained, movement wise, with nothing in the way.  If someone skinned me and made a suit of armor out of my flesh, I'd expect their movements to be restrained a lot more.  So, yeah, no penalties for Tough Hide.  If I did enforce it for the sake of "balance", the illogicality of it would annoy me, which takes away from my fun, so the penalty is gone.

[Pat]

Pat,
What makes the damage adjustment system in ML too generous?
Curious is all...

My group originally started playing with the ML Armour adjustments as is and found that the plate mail fighter (who was me) could pretty much stand in the middle of any combat and not take too much damage.

I remember doing a HARP adventure, I think it was Re-awakened Lands, and being attacked by a giant centipede that had Tough Hide Greater (We had already ruled that Tough Hide had damage adjustments.) so it was a plate adjusted monster. The entire combat was it trying to take bites out of me and the party trying to do significant damage to it. The fight lasted way too long because we couldn't do much damage. I'll give you examples:

I was a Gryx fighter with a 1H crush weapon so my maximum would (generally) be 100. So i'd do 3H arms or 6H legs or 9H abdomen or 14H chest or no hits in the head. {I don't know how many times I would curse because I'd hit someone in the head with a good roll for no concussion damage.}

The others were Rogues, Warrior Mages, Cleric and Mage (I think) with 2 of these characters with small weapons (daggers) so their maximum damage was only a 90 crit.

This means their maximum 90 crit slash damage was:
2H arms or 5H legs or 7H abdomen or 12H chest or no concussion damage head.

The fight lasted a ridiculous amount of time and the whole group decided by the end of the night to re-model the damage adjustments. We liked the idea but just thought it penalised non-armoured or lightly characters too greatly while rewarding the one dimensional tank character.

The next gaming session we used our own system where the difference between Unarmoured and Plate was only 10 Concussion hits (with Rigid leather still being the median armour.) To us, this meant that players will generally do some damage (even in the head) and those with small weapons (daggers, sais etc) will still do reasonable damage with a cap at 90. I believe that it improved the game play of ML but that's only my opinion.

[Pat]

Hi Masque 1,

(I won't quote your thoughts from above but I'll try to address my concerns raised.)

I agree and I disagree with your comments. I don't have a problem with an imbalanced RPG if that's how the game is designed but I believe that HARP is well designed and balanced. (This is one of the reasons I enjoy playing it so much. The effort put into the gaming system and the race/profession system marks it as well ahead of most other similar games.)

However, when any new book is created and added into a gaming environment (Martial Law, College of Magic, Cyradon etc.) I hope that the same fore thought and balance that is present in the original will carry on into the suppliments. I feel that some of the suppliment rules (with Tough Hide being one of them) need to be re-considered. I don't have a problem with them being introduced, it's just that when you need to start creating house rules to correct playability problems (my opinion only) that I feel the game is being hurt.

As I've said previously, our group has house ruled Tough Hide as non-stacking as well as Armour not stacking with Mage Armour, Tree Skin etc so that we have a game we enjoy. (Just like you have ruled so that you get a game you enjoy.)

 If I did enforce it for the sake of "balance", the illogicality of it would annoy me, which takes away from my fun, so the penalty is gone.

This is where we differ in our opinions. Our group enjoys the balance provided by HARP which is one of the reasons we play it. To us, it is not illogical since all races and professions have their own positives and negatives that appeal to us as a group. The Nagazi (with stackable bonuses) becomes too powerful. You mention Dwarfs and Gryx with +5 to OB/DB for Dense Musculature well Tough Hide is twice that effect (+20 DB compared to +5 OB/DB.) and there is nothing stopping a Nagazi taking Dense Musculature as a talent.

Lastly, you mentioned that your players would not have benefited from this since you have had limited combat, that's fine but what happens when they do have combat? Failing a duping check or stalk/hide may not kill you but there is always a chance of death in any combat situation and this is where a Nagazi bonus is paramount.

[Right Wing Wacko]

My group originally started playing with the ML Armour adjustments as is and found that the plate mail fighter (who was me) could pretty much stand in the middle of any combat and not take too much damage.

I remember doing a HARP adventure, I think it was Re-awakened Lands, and being attacked by a giant centipede that had Tough Hide Greater (We had already ruled that Tough Hide had damage adjustments.) so it was a plate adjusted monster. The entire combat was it trying to take bites out of me and the party trying to do significant damage to it. The fight lasted way too long because we couldn't do much damage. I'll give you examples:...

Ahh... Are you talking about adjustments due to hit location?
I thought you were talking about the armor adjustments to hits, bleeding, and stun.

I have never used the adjustments due to location (from H&S or ML). I need to look at my books to be sure we are talking about two different things, but, alas, I am at work right now